how would you fix the Dacks for deer hunting...and does it need fixing?

[Hunter007]

30 minutes ago, Yellow Barn said:

10,000 yrs ago was a short time after the last glacial event so wildlife density was very low as plants were just getting re-established. By human hunting I assume you mean white people hunting as humans have inhabited this region, and hunted wildlife, for thousands of years.


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Before Firearms hunting basically ..

I know at one time all or most the animals you find now only in the West lived throughout North America  brown bear

montain lion elk wolf   .xct

Edited November 30, 2017 by Storm914

[IRL]

Before Firearms hunting basically ..
I know at one time all or most the animals you find now only in the West lived throughout North America  browm bear montain lion elk wolf   .xct

Theodore Roosevelt has written at length on the subject.

Modern firearms deer season in NY is relatively new (1940ish), as the forest was mostly cleared and wildlife wiped out in the 1800s. The Great Depression after WWI took the pressure off the land and resulted in most of the state land we have today.


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[Five Seasons]

16 hours ago, Padre86 said:

Again, I'm curious to know what areas you and Buckmaster are hunting in the ADK's.  In most of the areas I hunt, still hunting just isn't that practical, especially if there is no snow on the ground.  Blowdown, dead leaves and sticks, thick undergrowth...you'll usually create quite a racket if you try moving around too much.

i have only bear hunted the daks. And I agree (around brown tract ponds) it's not easy travel. tons of thick vegetation. Problem I see is that it's not the vegetation that deer like to eat. Needs to be burned to the ground! haha.

[The_Field_Ager]

Designate 2% of all Daks land to be clear cut and turned to meadow, scrub and other forms of edge territory. That would help. Too many damned trees and no forage

[Padre86]

16 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

From lake George to tupper lake to town of inlet. I have a camp in speculator and belong to a camp in blue mtn lake that I use as base camps.

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Camps on land leased from timber or private land owners I assume?  IF so, that goes along with the point I was making.  Some hunters get quick access (via private dirt roads) to remote and low-pressure areas in the ADK's.  I think the APA should find a way to open up more of those old dirt roads to allow hunters to spread out and disperse from the main trailheads along the paved highways.

And by the way, I'm not knocking lease hunting; I'm looking to get into a lease of my own in the near future.  I'm just pointing out that the land access and driving mobility (which you had referred to earlier) that a lease hunter has is not the same as what a public land hunter has up in the ADK's; the public road access is very limited up there.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Padre86

[Buckmaster7600]

 
Camps on land leased from timber or private land owners I assume?  IF so, that goes along with the point I was making.  Some hunters get quick access (via private dirt roads) to remote and low-pressure areas in the ADK's.  I think the APA should find a way to open up more of those old dirt roads to allow hunters to spread out and disperse from the main trailheads along the paved highways.
And by the way, I'm not knocking lease hunting; I'm looking to get into a lease of my own in the near future.  I'm just pointing out that the land access and driving mobility (which you had referred to earlier) that a lease hunter has is not the same as what a public land hunter has up in the ADK's; the public road access is very limited up there.

1 is on timber property and the other is privately owned. The camp that is on timber property is a public seasonal road. The last thing I want is for there to the more roads opened to public in the Adirondacks it will turn into Maine and anyone that has hunted the big woods in Maine knows what I'm talking about.


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[stubborn1VT]

6 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

1 is on timber property and the other is privately owned. The camp that is on timber property is a public seasonal road. The last thing I want is for there to the more roads opened to public in the Adirondacks it will turn into Maine and anyone that has hunted the big woods in Maine knows what I'm talking about.


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I agree about Maine.  The guys I know who used to hunt Maine all left and went to Ontario.  Then they all went to Ohio...

[ATbuckhunter]

I know timber thinning and management will do wonders for the deer population. Although I remember that the benoit brothers said that once they started doing that in Maine, it killed a lot of the big buck hunting. I have zero experience in big woods hunting, but I have written a few papers on the benefits of fires and timber thinning. 

[Hunter007]

I don't know but I always, got the impression that the reason you don't see much wildlife  anyplace in ny state is because of human activity be it over hunting or loss of habitat even to many roads maybe  . 

Like in a place like the Adirondacks this could be happing 

Maybe near access points there is not much deer activity because those  easy places to get to have been already over hunted . Maybe 

 the most hard places  to get to acually still have a good population of deer  in the Adirondacks  because very few are able or willing to go that far off the beaten trail .

 

All I know You go out west you see game much more frequently than around here.

 

[nyantler]

On 11/29/2017 at 7:41 PM, Storm914 said:

I Just wonder what the wildlife density was like there before human hunting or before firearms .

1000 10,000  years ago .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Less than 100 years ago it was tremendous... many of the guys I hunt with have fathers and grandfathers that tell stories of many deer in the ADK's . Much of the reason the population is low is due to the amount of deer killed prior to 1939. I know of one story (with photos) of an old timer that shot 22 deer in one year by himself. That wasn't uncommon.

[Hunter007]

What about wild fire ?

 doesn't it happen up there .

Or do they put them out so fast that it does not improve anything  up there .

Edited December 2, 2017 by Storm914

[nyantler]

5 hours ago, Storm914 said:

What about wild fire ?

 doesn't it happen up there .

Or do they put them out so fast that it does not improve anything  up there .

So far the ADK's have been lucky, but they are a fire waiting to happen it some areas

 

[Padre86]

On 11/30/2017 at 7:29 PM, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

1 is on timber property and the other is privately owned. The camp that is on timber property is a public seasonal road. The last thing I want is for there to the more roads opened to public in the Adirondacks it will turn into Maine and anyone that has hunted the big woods in Maine knows what I'm talking about.


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I think there is a better balance to be had than what exists with the current status quo.  The number of publicly accessible dirt roads that provide good access to the interior parts are few and far between.  At the very least, the DEC should work to open up some of the existing timber and private inholding roads to public use (tax incentives, conservation easements, ect.).  They've done that with Oneil Flowage Rd. near Blue Mt., and some  timber lands around Speculator.

Like I said earlier, there doesn't need to be motorized access to every nook and cranny.  I enjoy hiking into the remote areas of the ADK's.  But a few more dirt roads (they already exist, it's just a matter of making them open to the public), will help hunters and anglers in finding their own spots.

[Buckmaster7600]

I think there is a better balance to be had than what exists with the current status quo.  The number of publicly accessible dirt roads that provide good access to the interior parts are few and far between.  At the very least, the DEC should work to open up some of the existing timber and private inholding roads to public use (tax incentives, conservation easements, ect.).  They've done that with Oneil Flowage Rd. near Blue Mt., and some  timber lands around Speculator.
Like I said earlier, there doesn't need to be motorized access to every nook and cranny.  I enjoy hiking into the remote areas of the ADK's.  But a few more dirt roads (they already exist, it's just a matter of making them open to the public), will help hunters and anglers in finding their own spots.

I disagree, having to work for big deer and fish is the best part of the Adirondacks, the 21" brook trout on my wall is a great memory including carrying a canoe 7 miles to catch him. The racks and mounts are made all the more special by the insane drags/carry's out of the remote destinations. Knowing that when I'm miles in that I am truly alone is my favorite part of big woods hunting that would be ruined my making these spots more accessible.


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[Padre86]

22 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I disagree, having to work for big deer and fish is the best part of the Adirondacks, the 21" brook trout on my wall is a great memory including carrying a canoe 7 miles to catch him. The racks and mounts are made all the more special by the insane drags/carry's out of the remote destinations. Knowing that when I'm miles in that I am truly alone is my favorite part of big woods hunting that would be ruined my making these spots more accessible.


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I enjoy the work and and remote nature of ADK hunting and fishing too.  I don't want that to go away either.  The roads that I want to see opened up are already in use; they're open to: administrative travel; private travel for leases or timber companies; some are even open up to the public for snowmobile season.  There are already vehicles using them, but they're not publicly accessible (at least for the hunting season).  

So the whole rustic, remote ADK experience goes out the window as I'm carrying an animal back down a gated dirt road and a lease hunter drives right by me.  

These roads provide access to some really remote pieces of public land that offer plenty of opportunities for bushwhacking and backcountry hunting.  I'd rather see the roads open to public use (via a conservation easement) and spend my time walking in the woods than walking down a well-defined road.  The main trailheads along the paved corridors get a lot of traffic (from hunters and hikers) and realistically there is a limit to how far in you can go if you plan on carrying meat on the return trip. 

 

I think you understand that and that's perhaps the reason for your leasing of 2 camps on private land.  I'm not knocking the leasing method; I'll likely have one set up within the next few years.  But if a road runs through or near public land, I think the DEC should try to encourage public access; that gives everyone equal opportunity and by no means does such a policy compromise the ADK's rustic nature if done smartly.  

Edited December 2, 2017 by Padre86

[Buckmaster7600]

I enjoy the work and and remote nature of ADK hunting and fishing too.  I don't want that to go away either.  The roads that I want to see opened up are already in use; they're open to: administrative travel; private travel for leases or timber companies; some are even open up to the public for snowmobile season.  There are already vehicles using them, but they're not publicly accessible (at least for the hunting season).  
So the whole rustic, remote ADK experience goes out the window as I'm carrying an animal back down a gated dirt road and a lease hunter drives right by me.  
These roads provide access to some really remote pieces of public land that offer plenty of opportunities for bushwhacking and backcountry hunting.  I'd rather see the roads open to public use (via a conservation easement) and spend my time walking in the woods than walking down a well-defined road.  The main trailheads along the paved corridors get a lot of traffic (from hunters and hikers) and realistically there is a limit to how far in you can go if you plan on carrying meat on the return trip. 
 
I think you understand that and that's perhaps the reason for your leasing of 2 camps on private land.  I'm not knocking the leasing method; I'll likely have one set up within the next few years.  But if a road runs through or near public land, I think the DEC should try to encourage public access; that gives everyone equal opportunity and by no means does such a policy compromise the ADK's rustic nature if done smartly.  

Do you think it's fair to the people who have built camps and pay leases for "private" use of those roads to loose it? I know if I built a camp on property with rights to a spot that became public I would be pissed!


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[Padre86]

25 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Do you think it's fair to the people who have built camps and pay leases for "private" use of those roads to loose it? I know if I built a camp on property with rights to a spot that became public I would be pissed!


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Well earlier you were making the point that public land hunters have no reason to complain about land access in the ADK's.   Now you seem to be indicating that you acknowledge, and in fact prefer, the disparity in access that currently exists between public land hunters and the lease hunters. 

You want to be able to hunt a remote area of the ADK's without bumping into other people; I get that.  If you have a lease to hunt and fish on private land, the public shouldn't intrude on that privacy.  However, if the roads run by or through state land, then yes, I think the DEC should encourage the landowners to open up road access to everyone.  Conservation easements usually entail some financial incentive to help offset any road upkeep.

Public land is meant to be used by the public.  The fact is, some people have a much easier time getting to the remote parts of the ADK's than do others.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Padre86

[Buckmaster7600]

 
Well earlier you were making the point that public land hunters have no reason to complain about land access in the ADK's.   Now you seem to be indicating that you acknowledge, and in fact prefer, the disparity in access that currently exists between public land hunters and the lease hunters. 
You want to be able to hunt a remote area of the ADK's without bumping into other people; I get that.  If you have a lease to hunt and fish on private land, the public shouldn't intrude on that privacy.  However, if the roads run by or through state land, then yes, I think the DEC should encourage the landowners to open up road access to everyone.  Conservation easements usually entail some financial incentive to help offset any road upkeep.
Public land is meant to be used by the public.  The fact is, some people have a much easier time getting to the remote parts of the ADK's than do others.

With all the land in the Adk's I have no problem with someone having the ability to pay for better more convenient access if they so desire.

In my case my camp that I have on paper company property gives me access to the backside of a huge chunk of state land that is 27 miles from the closest main road. I still have a 2 mile walk to get to the state land and there are very very few that would travel that far to get to the state land anyways.




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[Doewhacker]

34 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Do you think it's fair to the people who have built camps and pay leases for "private" use of those roads to loose it? I know if I built a camp on property with rights to a spot that became public I would be pissed!


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A gate will fix that. 

[Doewhacker]

Even if you open it up the shear ruggedness of the area and of logging roads would keep folks away. 

Maine is proof of that. I found a giant chunk of a main logging road that washed out last summer that was barely marked, I wasn’t in the general lee so I stomped on the breaks. 

No cell service, no gas station, no Uber, no one to help you. That keeps people away. 

None of this matters, it ain’t ever gonna be opened up. 

[Padre86]

6 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

With all the land in the Adk's I have no problem with someone having the ability to pay for better more convenient access if they so desire.

In my case my camp that I have on paper company property gives me access to the backside of a huge chunk of state land that is 27 miles from the closest main road. I still have a 2 mile walk to get to the state land and there are very very few that would travel that far to get to the state land anyways.




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I think this conversation is less about you wanting to maintain the rustic nature of the ADK's, and more about you wanting less competition while afield.

A 2 mile hike in and out is a whole lot easier than someone trying to get to the same spot over a dozen, or more, miles on each leg of the trip.

Your lease gives you exclusive rights to the private land; it does not give you exclusive rights to any adjacent public land.  If a road is going near or through public land, it should be open to the public.  You can't really chastise other ADK deer hunters for not going far enough off the main trailheads when your commute to the hunt is drastically shorter than theirs'. 

[Dom]

I do not hunt up in the ADK but I wouldn't burn,even with a controlled burn you would have to cut fire block's/Public land is just that if you cannot access certain areas don't blame anyone.I myself cant walk without the aid of crutches at this time so have to rely on others to do for me.There are many ways of gaining access to the land/public that you or anyone else would like to access some lands you can use the aid of motors some we cannot.To myself opening more trails roads will lead to more accidental problems.

[Buckmaster7600]

I think this conversation is less about you wanting to maintain the rustic nature of the ADK's, and more about you wanting less competition while afield.
A 2 mile hike in and out is a whole lot easier than someone trying to get to the same spot over a dozen, or more, miles on each leg of the trip.
Your lease gives you exclusive rights to the private land; it does not give you exclusive rights to any adjacent public land.  If a road is going near or through public land, it should be open to the public.  You can't really chastise other ADK deer hunters for not going far enough off the main trailheads when your commute to the hunt is drastically shorter than theirs'. 

Lol, exclusive rights that I leave at 2am And drive 2 hrs away from to find deer.


Good luck on your mission to make big woods hunting easier I'll continue busting my nuts and killing mature bucks.


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[Padre86]

17 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Lol, exclusive rights that I leave at 2am And drive 2 hrs away from to find deer.


Good luck on your mission to make big woods hunting easier I'll continue busting my nuts and killing mature bucks.


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ADK hunting is tough, no matter what.  As Doewhacker pointed out, it's not as if opening up a few more logging roads is going to result in hunters flooding the area.  People hunt in the ADK's for the challenge and the experience, not because they expect a sure thing.

I just think your views of ADK land access and hunting from the main trailheads are a bit biased.  If a road enables access to public land, it should be open to the public.  

Edited December 3, 2017 by Padre86

[Buckmaster7600]

ADK hunting is tough, no matter what.  As Doewhacker pointed out, it's not as if opening up a few more logging roads is going to result in hunters flooding the area.  People hunt in the ADK's for the challenge and the experience, not because they want a sure thing.
I just think your views of ADK land access and hunting from the main trailheads are a bit biased.  

How are they biased? Like I said earlier I sleep at a camp "for now" and travel to where the best conditions and sign are. 95% of my hunting is done by parking at a trailhead usually of a main road.

My half of my camp is on the market. For 33K$ it can be yours?

I want to sell it so I can buy a truck camper to be more mobile to save on my driving around before daylight.

I am packing my truck as I type so I can leave at 2am for a 3hr drive to head up to around cranberry lake for the last day because I heard there might still be some tracking snow. I have never hunted this area in my life but I looked at a map and I found where a couple trailheads are that I'm going to check out before daylight. If there is tracking snow I will put a 20$ bill on the fact that I will see a buck tomorrow. Now most likely it won't be a shooter but that's what makes it fun. Having hunted the ADKS for as long as I have I can say that I average more bucks sightings in a day when conditions are right than I do on my family's 300 acre farm.


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