Killed while walking her dogs at 5:30, that's dark

[moog5050]

Manslaughter 2 is recklessly causing the death of another.  Shooting a deadly projectile without knowing your target seems to fall squarely in that definition.

[steve863]

I'm not saying that the shooter is not worthy of a manslaughter charge here, but it really seems to me that the DEC (Seggos) and the media are making this a VERY big story.  Much bigger than other hunting type accidents. It even got headline attention on the CNN website.  This can't be good for ANY of us hunters in any shape or form.  No matter how much we hunters may condemn this guy for shooting, we will somehow be guilty just because we are also hunters.  Very unfortunate.

[growalot]

Quote

To hunt—means to pursue, shoot, kill or capture (other than trap) wildlife and includes all lesser acts that disturb or worry wildlife, whether or not they result in taking. Hunting also includes all acts to assist another person in taking wildlife

Quote

To take—means to pursue, shoot, hunt, kill, capture, trap, snare or net wildlife and game—and all lesser acts that disturb or worry wildlife—or to place or use any net or other device commonly used to take wildlife.

Per NYS definitions...just walking into  a piece of property with out a weapon could be perceived as " HUNTING". For walking into an animals living area would by definition "disturb or worry" them...Though I'm not sure they would find any of them able to testify...but that just allows the ECO to fall back on his "Better" judgment

[WNYBuckHunter]

14 minutes ago, growalot said:

Per NYS definitions...just walking into  a piece of property with out a weapon could be perceived as " HUNTING". For walking into an animals living area would by definition "disturb or worry" them...Though I'm not sure they would find any of them able to testify...but that just allows the ECO to fall back on his "Better" judgment

If that were true, then people wouldnt be able to bring their kids or guests hunting.

[growalot]

Quote

Per NYS definitions.

I won't get into another 11 page "discussion " over how POORLY NYS wrights it's rules....but I do need to find someone to make a point with wings emoticon...

 Wait...

Quote

To hunt—means to pursue, shoot, kill or capture (other than trap) wildlife and includes all lesser acts that disturb or worry wildlife, whether or not they result in taking. Hunting also includes all acts to assist another person in taking wildlife.

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by growalot

[The_Real_TCIII]

37 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Manslaughter 2 is recklessly causing the death of another.  Shooting a deadly projectile without knowing your target seems to fall squarely in that definition.

Easily. I dont care about any of the other circumstances. Shooting hours, private property, none of it. If you shoot someone because you thought they were a deer I want this to be the charge.

[Rack Attack]

44 minutes ago, Belo said:

Fair point, but for arguments sake (that's what we do best),

what if this guy would have claimed he was shooting at a coyote (heck she was walking a dog), and missed...

This is a fair point.  The coyote thing is an interesting topic.  If the guy had a centerfire rifle it would need to be less than .22 caliber (which is not legal for deer), but since he was using a pistol, he was technically legal for coyote since they do not specify any caliber restrictions for hunting coyote at night like with a rifle.

With that said, the guy is 110% at fault.  I just don't know how you can aim at something well enough to hit it at 200 yards, and not be able to identify it as a human rather than a deer.

I'm all for matching our legal hunting hours with most of the rest of the nation, being 1/2 hour before and after sunrise/sunset, but people need to use some common sense and follow the VERY BASIC safety rules of identifying their target!  It's really not that hard to do folks!

[WNYBuckHunter]

10 minutes ago, growalot said:

I won't get into another 11 page "discussion " over how POORLY NYS wrights it's rules....but I do need to find someone to make a point with wings emoticon...

 Wait...

 

You can still take someone hunting as long as they do nothing but sit there and watch. They are not allowed to shoot, drive animals, etc. Theres nothing to argue about, its legal period.

[steve863]

4 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

This is a fair point.  The coyote thing is an interesting topic.  If the guy had a centerfire rifle it would need to be less than .22 caliber (which is not legal for deer), but since he was using a pistol, he was technically legal for coyote since they do not specify any caliber restrictions for hunting coyote at night like with a rifle.

 

Is this true??  I can't believe that there are too many coyote hunters hunting at night with a .17 centerfire?   Just doesn't sound right to me.  Most coyote hunters will be using .22 or .243 centerfires in most other hunting circumstances.  And they would both be LEGAL for deer also in NYS.

[growalot]

Soooo.... He basically put him self in jail for longer by telling the truth.....Think about it....How many times do you think you'll hear someone say..."I thought it was a deer" in another shooting aye?

To be honest...I'm surprised he said that in the first place ,or that he actually went to help and didn't run away...They run here when possible...So For all that many are saying and with the screwed up timelines in many a head, he probably  isn't such a bad human being... Just someone who thought his judgment on shooting light was better than the states...For the Grace of God do some of you walk...

[growalot]

yep need a point with wings...how can I not find one when it's clearly needed......I have to stop reading this with out being signed in

[Rack Attack]

9 minutes ago, steve863 said:

Is this true??  I can't believe that there are too many coyote hunters hunting at night with a .17 centerfire?   Just doesn't sound right to me.  Most coyote hunters will be using .22 or .243 centerfires in most other hunting circumstances.  And they would both be LEGAL for deer also in NYS.

Yep, if hunting at night during an open deer season, it must be less than .22 caliber.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/45559.html

[growalot]

Quote

Possession and Use of Rifles for Hunting Furbearers

To determine whether you may use a rifle to hunt furbearers, answer the following questions:

1. Is any deer season open in the location you wish to hunt (including archery, muzzleloading, regular, late, and Deer Management Focus Area)?
   1. If NO, you may use any caliber rimfire or centerfire rifle for hunting furbearers.
   2. If YES, can deer be hunted with rifles in that location during the regular (firearms) deer season?
      1. If YES, you may use any caliber rimfire or centerfire rifle for hunting furbearers during any open deer season.
      2. If NO, you may only possess afield rimfire rifles .22-caliber or smaller, or centerfire rifles less than .22-caliber (e.g., .204, .17) during any open deer season. Once all deer seasons are closed, the restriction ends, except:
2. You may never possess a rifle afield in Westchester, Nassau, and Suffolk counties.
3. In the Northern Zone, it is illegal to carry a rifle larger than .22-caliber rimfire (or .22-caliber or larger centerfire rifles) at any time if accompanied by a dog, except when coyote hunting.

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

8 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

Yep, if hunting at night during an open deer season, it must be less than .22 caliber.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/45559.html

Thats only for non rifle areas. If you are in a rifle zone (for deer), you can use any caliber day or night.

Possession and Use of Rifles for Hunting Furbearers

To determine whether you may use a rifle to hunt furbearers, answer the following questions:

1. Is any deer season open in the location you wish to hunt (including archery, muzzleloading, regular, late, and Deer Management Focus Area)?
   1. If NO, you may use any caliber rimfire or centerfire rifle for hunting furbearers.
   2. If YES, can deer be hunted with rifles in that location during the regular (firearms) deer season?
      1. If YES, you may use any caliber rimfire or centerfire rifle for hunting furbearers during any open deer season.
      2. If NO, you may only possess afield rimfire rifles .22-caliber or smaller, or centerfire rifles less than .22-caliber (e.g., .204, .17) during any open deer season. Once all deer seasons are closed, the restriction ends, except:
2. You may never possess a rifle afield in Westchester, Nassau, and Suffolk counties.
3. In the Northern Zone, it is illegal to carry a rifle larger than .22-caliber rimfire (or .22-caliber or larger centerfire rifles) at any time if accompanied by a dog, except when coyote hunting.

Furbearer Hunting at Night

You may hunt furbearers at night, with or without a light, as follows:

• You may use a light, but you may not hunt from any motor vehicle, including an ATV. All laws pertaining to the use of a spotlight and firearm apply.
• If hunting without a light, the use of a light gathering ("starlight") scope is legal on any firearm listed below.
• You may use a handgun, bow, or crossbow.
• You may use a shotgun loaded with shot (any size).
• You may hunt furbearers with a rifle chambered in any cartridge, except that during any open season for deer - including archery, muzzleloading and regular seasons - you may not possess a centerfire rifle afield, during the day or night, to hunt wildlife, including furbearers in any county or portion of a county where deer hunting with rifles is prohibited during the regular deer season. Centerfire rifles smaller than .22 caliber are permitted (e.g., .204, .17 Hornet). See the section above for further clarification.

NOTE: In Westchester, Nassau, and Suffolk counties rifles are not allowed. In all other localities, be sure to check with local officials about laws restricting the discharge of a firearm at night.

[Rack Attack]

Grow, please take a look at the next section down (hunting at night, which he was)

Furbearer Hunting at Night

You may hunt furbearers at night, with or without a light, as follows:

• You may use a light, but you may not hunt from any motor vehicle, including an ATV. All laws pertaining to the use of a spotlight and firearm apply.
• If hunting without a light, the use of a light gathering ("starlight") scope is legal on any firearm listed below.
• You may use a handgun, bow, or crossbow.
• You may use a shotgun loaded with shot (any size).
• You may hunt furbearers with a rifle chambered in any cartridge, except that during any open season for deer - including archery, muzzleloading and regular seasons - you may not possess a centerfire rifle afield, during the day or night, to hunt wildlife, including furbearers in any county or portion of a county where deer hunting with rifles is prohibited during the regular deer season. Centerfire rifles smaller than .22 caliber are permitted (e.g., .204, .17 Hornet). See the section above for further clarification.

NOTE: In Westchester, Nassau, and Suffolk counties rifles are not allowed. In all other localities, be sure to check with local officials about laws restricting the discharge of a firearm at night.

[Rack Attack]

7 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Thats only for non rifle areas.

Possession and Use of Rifles for Hunting Furbearers

To determine whether you may use a rifle to hunt furbearers, answer the following questions:

1. Is any deer season open in the location you wish to hunt (including archery, muzzleloading, regular, late, and Deer Management Focus Area)?
   1. If NO, you may use any caliber rimfire or centerfire rifle for hunting furbearers.
   2. If YES, can deer be hunted with rifles in that location during the regular (firearms) deer season?
      1. If YES, you may use any caliber rimfire or centerfire rifle for hunting furbearers during any open deer season.
      2. If NO, you may only possess afield rimfire rifles .22-caliber or smaller, or centerfire rifles less than .22-caliber (e.g., .204, .17) during any open deer season. Once all deer seasons are closed, the restriction ends, except:
2. You may never possess a rifle afield in Westchester, Nassau, and Suffolk counties.
3. In the Northern Zone, it is illegal to carry a rifle larger than .22-caliber rimfire (or .22-caliber or larger centerfire rifles) at any time if accompanied by a dog, except when coyote hunting.

Furbearer Hunting at Night

You may hunt furbearers at night, with or without a light, as follows:

• You may use a light, but you may not hunt from any motor vehicle, including an ATV. All laws pertaining to the use of a spotlight and firearm apply.
• If hunting without a light, the use of a light gathering ("starlight") scope is legal on any firearm listed below.
• You may use a handgun, bow, or crossbow.
• You may use a shotgun loaded with shot (any size).
• You may hunt furbearers with a rifle chambered in any cartridge, except that during any open season for deer - including archery, muzzleloading and regular seasons - you may not possess a centerfire rifle afield, during the day or night, to hunt wildlife, including furbearers in any county or portion of a county where deer hunting with rifles is prohibited during the regular deer season. Centerfire rifles smaller than .22 caliber are permitted (e.g., .204, .17 Hornet). See the section above for further clarification.

NOTE: In Westchester, Nassau, and Suffolk counties rifles are not allowed. In all other localities, be sure to check with local officials about laws restricting the discharge of a firearm at night.

That is not true, if hunting at night during any open deer season whether its a rifle area or not it must be less than 22 caliber.  before or after deer seasons you can use any caliber at night.

The part you referenced is referring to shooting coyotes during daytime shooting hours.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Rack Attack

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

That is not true, if hunting at night during any open deer season whether its a rifle area or not it must be less than 22 caliber.  before or after deer seasons you can use any caliber at night.

It is true, I highlighted it in red. Ill see if I cant find the email I got from DEC confirming this. Weve had this discussion on here before.

[Rack Attack]

Good luck with hunting coyotes at night with a centerfire larger than 22 caliber during an open deer season.  You will be ticketed.

[WNYBuckHunter]

John Burke <[email protected]>

11/13/13

 

to me

 

 

 

 

 

John,

You can hunt furbearers with any caliber rifle any where in the state, with the exception of deer season, if the county where you hunt does not allow rifle, you must hunt furbearers with a rim fire or shotgun during the open deer season, which includes archery and muzzleloading season.  Afer the deer season closes, you can switch back to the centerfire rifle.  You may never hunt with a centerfire rifle in Weschester, Nassau or Suffolk.
 

 

Capt. John W. Burke

NYS DEC Police

6274 East Avon-Lima Road

Avon, NY 14414-9519

Office - 585-226-6706

Fax - 585-226-8533

[WNYBuckHunter]

Theres the email from DEC. Plain and simple. All you have to do is read the areas I highlighted and take each into consideration. If you are in a rifle zone, you can hunt with any caliber rifle day or night. If you are in a shotgun only area, it has to be below 22 caliber.

[steve863]

20 minutes ago, growalot said:

Soooo.... He basically put him self in jail for longer by telling the truth.....Think about it....How many times do you think you'll hear someone say..."I thought it was a deer" in another shooting aye?

To be honest...I'm surprised he said that in the first place ,or that he actually went to help and didn't run away...They run here when possible...So For all that many are saying and with the screwed up timelines in many a head, he probably  isn't such a bad human being... Just someone who thought his judgment on shooting light was better than the states...For the Grace of God do some of you walk...

I would agree with you here, Grow.  He made a very, very bad decision here to pull the trigger, but I somehow get the hunch that he isn't a demon of a human being since he himself dialed 911 to call for help. 

 

 

 

[Jdubs]

1 hour ago, steve863 said:

I'm not saying that the shooter is not worthy of a manslaughter charge here, but it really seems to me that the DEC (Seggos) and the media are making this a VERY big story.  Much bigger than other hunting type accidents. It even got headline attention on the CNN website.  This can't be good for ANY of us hunters in any shape or form.  No matter how much we hunters may condemn this guy for shooting, we will somehow be guilty just because we are also hunters.  Very unfortunate.

It IS a VERY big story.  A woman was shot dead due to the hunter's negligence.  Are we that de-sensitized to a person being killed?  There should be no surprise this is natuonal news.  CNN and the like are riduculously biased against ALL gun owners and will highlight any story, factual or not, to promote the anti-gun agenda.  

None of us gets to control that conversation.  What we can do as a group is to band together and only vote for pro-gun, pro-hunting politicians.  Unfortunately, NY gun owners as a whole failed miserably in that endeavor when Cuomo was re-elected with the lowest voter turnout in history.  

[Jdubs]

14 minutes ago, steve863 said:

I would agree with you here, Grow.  He made a very, very bad decision here to pull the trigger, but I somehow get the hunch that he isn't a demon of a human being since he himself dialed 911 to call for help. 

 

 

 

Agreed.  If found guilty, that should be a strong factor argued for a more lenient sentence than the 15 year maximum.

[steve863]

6 minutes ago, Jdubs said:

It IS a VERY big story.  A woman was shot dead due to the hunter's negligence.  Are we that de-sensitized to a person being killed?  There should be no surprise this is natuonal news.  CNN and the like are riduculously biased against ALL gun owners and will highlight any story, factual or not, to promote the anti-gun agenda.  

None of us gets to control that conversation.  What we can do as a group is to band together and only vote for pro-gun, pro-hunting politicians.  Unfortunately, NY gun owners as a whole failed miserably in that endeavor when Cuomo was re-elected with the lowest voter turnout in history.  

 

I do not take the death of this woman lightly or am minimizing this shooters negligence, and it is a big story, but I still think that this particular incident is being sensationalized way more than other hunting shooting deaths.   Yeah, I get CNN being typically biased, but why is this story bigger than others?  I honestly think the NYS DEC has had a hand in sensationalizing this, which won't be helping NYS hunters or hunters anywhere.

 

 

 

[moog5050]

Not really interested in debating the legal standard, but if this guy was found to be merely negligent, then he could not be convicted of manslaughter.  Recklessness is a higher standard.