Argument Over Shortening Gun Season

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, Robhuntandfish said:

You just don't get my point....I'm sorry for that as you couldn't even pick up sarcasm either.  My point is ypu want to limit the amount of time other hunters are allowed to hunt.  This is not fair to the general masses for the reasons you are giving.  The deer herd is NOT in any means in trouble in NY.  We have a healthy and robust deer herd in NY.  Taking 5-7 days out of whole year does not make or break anything with the health of the herd. As this is proven by the amount of deer.  Do you think the herd is unhealthy....... why?  It isn't.  And all shortening the season by a week of the year will have no impact on its health.  I would agree of deer numbers were low. They are not . The southern zone in most dmp's DEC is dying for more of a take, towns like Hamilton, Fayetteville, manlius, etc etc are all requesting a deer eradication, DEC just extended season in several spots to increase the deer take.  Your argument to limit season to have a larger herd would be true if it was in trouble.  

 

If we have such a healthy robust herd, then why do we hear about winter mortality being as bad as it is when we have harsh winters? Part of the reason for them dying is because they get so run down during the rut and being pressured for as long as they are during gun season, which is over a month in length. You dont think it would be better for the deer to not be subject to pretty heavy pressure for that long?

As far as it not being fair to some hunters, why wouldnt it be? Everyone is still on the same playing field.

It would actually be better for the average hunter, you would end up with 2 (most likely) weekends of "opening day" instead of just one, where deer movement is pretty natural. If you think about it, the combination of more natural deer movement (due to lack of pressure) and more hunter participation is what makes opening day such a great day or weekend to hunt.

The reasons behind certain areas having issues with higher than desired deer populations have little to do with season length, and more to do with lack of hunter access or lack of huntable ground.

[upstate]

Frankly I'm shocked. Multiple experts on deer, deer management, property management and trophy management disagree. 

 

This place is exhausting. 

 

the biggest issue that hunters face is ACCESS. They can't get to the deer that are hiding from them. 

 

They also want to sit in a tree/ blind all day until the big bucks they've been taking pictures of, and patterning by camera walk by so they can "harvest" 

That's not hunting folks, its TV 

[stubby68]

3 hours ago, moog5050 said:

And I will offer my opinion on why numbers are down from 1984 - technology.  It has caused people/kids to demand immediate gratification and a hobby like hunting that requires quiet patience simply doesn't fit the bill and that ain't going to change regardless of whether gun season is 10 days or a month.

         Exactly

[Robhuntandfish]

2 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

If we have such a healthy robust herd, then why do we hear about winter mortality being as bad as it is when we have harsh winters? Part of the reason for them dying is because they get so run down during the rut and being pressured for as long as they are during gun season, which is over a month in length. You dont think it would be better for the deer to not be subject to pretty heavy pressure for that long?

As far as it not being fair to some hunters, why wouldnt it be? Everyone is still on the same playing field.

It would actually be better for the average hunter, you would end up with 2 (most likely) weekends of "opening day" instead of just one, where deer movement is pretty natural. If you think about it, the combination of more natural deer movement (due to lack of pressure) and more hunter participation is what makes opening day such a great day or weekend to hunt.

The reasons behind certain areas having issues with higher than desired deer populations have little to do with season length, and more to do with lack of hunter access or lack of huntable ground.

well i can actually agree with some of that with you!  yea! 

But if we have a high winter kill cant it also be attributed to high population and lack of food to sustain the numbers? And if a lot of deer die in the winter isnt it because there are a lot of deer?  Our winters are going to be bad no matter how short season is and will take a lot of deer.  It hasnt gotten above 10 here all day already this year.

The matter of fairness is limiting availability of time to got out hunting.  If I am a gun hunter why should I give up a week of hunting , and that its not fair to determine a shorter season based on what works best for some.  I do agree hunting of course will affect and cause pressure on the herd, but I still cant see how 7 days of hunting will drastically affect the herd health. And I just dont think hunting is all about the take -- Cant get a deer from the couch - so dont want to miss out on valuable hunting time. It is the same playing field but the field isnt open all the time for everyone.  I would think the North wouldnt want to miss out on hunting when it snows, or people around thankgiving when they have time off etc.  I just cant see the restriction for the payoff.  BUT>>> if you own or lease your own land i for sure think you should do that if you like.  I do a little of it myself - I dont hunt or push the bedding areas or areas of comfort til the very last weekend to not pressure the deer or run them off the land.  But this is by my choice, not NY's and not due to the lack of deer.  And I def agree with your last statement and would also add the line to "lower " as well. and add in habitat.  Everyone sees less deer the more pressure you give to the land.  If you hunt it every day during bow you will see less deer, but not everyone hunts the same days, frequency or times. Its a big picture of availability for everyone.  

its just two different ways of looking at the issue.  I do understand your thought of better for the herd, but i just dont believe in restrictions for people that we dont really need across the entire state.   

[stubby68]

33 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

If we have such a healthy robust herd, then why do we hear about winter mortality being as bad as it is when we have harsh winters? Part of the reason for them dying is because they get so run down during the rut and being pressured for as long as they are during gun season, which is over a month in length. You dont think it would be better for the deer to not be subject to pretty heavy pressure for that long?

As far as it not being fair to some hunters, why wouldnt it be? Everyone is still on the same playing field.

It would actually be better for the average hunter, you would end up with 2 (most likely) weekends of "opening day" instead of just one, where deer movement is pretty natural. If you think about it, the combination of more natural deer movement (due to lack of pressure) and more hunter participation is what makes opening day such a great day or weekend to hunt.

The reasons behind certain areas having issues with higher than desired deer populations have little to do with season length, and more to do with lack of hunter access or lack of huntable ground.

Only the sickest and weakest die off. It is the way of nature. If the animal is not able to get what it needs to survive be it because animal is too sick or weak or be it from the fact that the area just can not sustain the population of deer there. Could be that in some areas we would still see a large number of winter kills just because the area does not have enough available food to carry the number of deer there.

     Actually what makes opening weekend such a success is the same as for thanksgiveing. The number of hunters in the woods. More people in the woods and moving makes for more deer movement and higher rate of sightings and kills. Having multiple opening days would not changenthis. Some hunters do not have the t I'm to go out very often and if they don't already get out the second or third weekend of season now probably wouldn't be able to make it out just because it is a new opener.

[stubby68]

Been a lot of mention of the deer herd and hunting season in other states. We can not use other states as a role model for ny. No other state has the same deer we do nor do they have the same hunters. Add in different soil, as structure climate, natural food sources even the political climate effects hunting in ny. We can only compare ny with ny. Using ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois,  Kansas, where ever does not work. None of those states have the same things as ny. Some are close but enough of a difference to make them not usable as a model. Jmo 

[uberyan]

I'm fairly new to hunting so I won't make any claims as to what makes proper deer management.

One thing I would say is that if you really wanted to better manage the deer population you would have to get a lot more local. FWIW, NYS is a pretty large mass of land and differing geographies. What works in suburbia near the more populated cities is not going to work for the sparser rural areas. Deer population and herd health can vary a lot depending on where you are.

In my case, Long Island has a huge population of deer to the point of nuisance in a lot of areas. The biggest hindrance to controlling those numbers is due to lack of access. Not a lot of private areas that are large enough to hunt on even if you had access. And in general, too much private land with no access. They've made an effort to open up more public areas to hunting but those all come with numbered spots with a certain number of hunters allowed at any given time. Shortening the season here would just mean higher hunter densities crammed into a shorter period of time, possibly with some hunters not being able to get out at all.

And I'm sure I'm not the only person that does this, but I avoid any opening day as I prefer to still hunt. A large amount of hunters is not good for me as I don't want to disturb anyone else's hunt but more importantly, don't want to expose myself to some trigger happy idiot who will shoot anything that moves (obviously none of the fine folk here).

A long season is beneficial to me as it affords me the most opportunities to get out at all. That's actually the reason I even took up bowhunting. My first season I only hunted the rifle season and even getting out three times was a chore.

[gjs4]

Quality is a matter of opinion as is the desire to shoot trophy bucks but we both know they are out there even in NY.  I don't disagree that NY could be managed to produce more mature bucks which personally I would like - but that's is not everyone's goal.  But I really don't think even that would cause the younger generations to jump into hunting more.  I thought I read somewhere that the biggest segment of new hunters are those that want naturally occurring food sources and that does not require more mature bucks.

Though I love to be a prick on here- it’s just a devils advocate position for consideration.

Besides if the youth season horse chit doesn’t sell them on it- not much else will. Lol


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[gjs4]

Boom! What fun is it to shoot a bunch of baby deer when they see guys all over Tv and every state around us shooting adult mature deer. I always found it funny that all the classes are always full for hunting permits but our hunter numbers keep dropping so they say? Strange!


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I have two buddies that are instructors and have helped them with classes. Inevitably there are multiple trucks w the bone collector etc logo taking up the back window from those driving someone to the class. Says a lot.


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[Doc]

17 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

.....I always found it funny that all the classes are always full for hunting permits but our hunter numbers keep dropping so they say? ......

I wouldn't make too much out of that. I have read posts of people desperately searching for hunter safety training classes because they are getting few and far between. Perhaps they are always full because it is getting harder and harder to find instructors.

[Hunter007]

People say they don't see many bucks well go get or look at guys game cams because they don't seem to have any touble finding them .

Edited December 28, 2017 by Storm914

[nyantler]

On 12/27/2017 at 8:28 AM, phade said:

We average less than 9 days afield between gun and MZ. We do OK. Can’t remember the last time I personally clocked more than 9 days in gun season.

Seems like people assume too much sometimes.


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There are exceptions sometimes... 

[nyantler]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

I wouldn't make too much out of that. I have read posts of people desperately searching for hunter safety training classes because they are getting few and far between. Perhaps they are always full because it is getting harder and harder to find instructors.

At our club we can only accommodate 25 people... limited space seems to be an issue as well in other clubs. 

[nyantler]

On 12/27/2017 at 9:49 AM, Storm914 said:

  and talking to other hunters .

I  have hunted  lot of different places from Chenango County to Westchester County and in between . 

Years ago there definitely were more people hunting 

but there is no distinction between how many hunters there are and how much they actually hunt... a hunter that hunts 1 day a season gets counted the same as one that hunts every day of the season. It could be that there are more hunters that just hunt less than they use to.

[Doc]

18 hours ago, nyantler said:

but there is no distinction between how many hunters there are and how much they actually hunt... a hunter that hunts 1 day a season gets counted the same as one that hunts every day of the season. It could be that there are more hunters that just hunt less than they use to.

License sales numbers may still be up, but that doesn't say that they are being used at the same rate and the same enthusiasm as they used to be. Let's face it, in spite of how much we complain, the cost of a hunting license is still pretty darn cheap. I'm sure there are a lot of people who buy a license just in case they get the urge to go out. And then there are the people who want to go out just for opening day so they can say they still go deer hunting. And then there are those that go out on opening day but seem to never make it back after they head out for breakfast or lunch......for the remainder of the season. Then there are people who get counted for each different kind of hunting license that they buy. There's a whole lot more to judging hunting popularity, activity and enthusiasm than simply counting licenses.

[Lawdwaz]

On 12/27/2017 at 8:28 AM, phade said:

We average less than 9 days afield between gun and MZ. We do OK. Can’t remember the last time I personally clocked more than 9 days in gun season.

Seems like people assume too much sometimes.


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I’ve never consciously counted my days afield while Gun hunting but I know that I didn’t hunt 9 days with the rifle & muzzleloader this year. 

I hunted when I could due to work, family and weather constrictions.  With a shorter season I wouldn’t have got nine days afield this year. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Lawdwaz

[Hunter007]

58 minutes ago, Doc said:

License sales numbers may still be up, but that doesn't say that they are being used at the same rate and the same enthusiasm as they used to be. Let's face it, in spite of how much we complain, the cost of a hunting license is still pretty darn cheap. I'm sure there are a lot of people who buy a license just in case they get the urge to go out. And then there are the people who want to go out just for opening day so they can say they still go deer hunting. And then there are those that go out on opening day but seem to never make it back after they head out for breakfast or lunch......for the remainder of the season. Then there are people who get counted for each different kind of hunting license that they buy. There's a whole lot more to judging hunting popularity, activity and enthusiasm than simply counting licenses.

And some guys that have a lot of land behind there house buy them just incase they see something in the back yard but don't actually hunt as in stay out there and freeze waiting for the deer to show up . 

[phade]

Shorter seasons IMO create a sense of urgency in hunters. Participation rates in shorter seasons are higher per day average, hence the minimal drop off of harvest numbers compared to lengthy seasons. Cut the season by two thirds or so and you still get 90% of the harvest totals.


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[Robhuntandfish]

6 minutes ago, Lawdwaz said:

I’ve never consciously counted my days afield while Gun hunting but I know that I didn’t hunt 9 days with the rifle & muzzleloader this year. 

I hunted when I could due to work, family and weather constrictions.  With a shorter season I wouldn’t have got nine days afield this year. 

there was my point all along.....life gets in the way of hunting.  Just happens.  Make it shorter and less hunting for us all isnt a win. Glad you had some luck while you were out, but still sucks not to be able to get out as much as we all would like to.  

[Robhuntandfish]

7 minutes ago, phade said:

Shorter seasons IMO create a sense of urgency in hunters. Participation rates in shorter seasons are higher per day average, hence the minimal drop off of harvest numbers compared to lengthy seasons. Cut the season by two thirds or so and you still get 90% of the harvest totals.


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But only 66% of the time to hunt.  Does everyone but me just hunt for the take only and not the love of being out hunting?  If the take is the same as you say, then there is no reason to shorten it.  ( which the take would drop, just because there is less time to hunt, which means less hours in the field by 33% so it will have to drop at least some).  Not everyone can get time off to hunt or be able to anytime.  There are plenty of work places where guys fight for hunting time off as it is, and not everyone can take the first week of deer season off at the same time.  Shorten it and they have less of a chance to get out.  It creates a sense of urgency to shorten it because you have less time to enjoy it, why would you want to limit the time you have to hunt.  I will just never understand this.  lol  guess i have to move on ..... cause to me its like saying ---- hey lets not have sex for a month cause it will be better then.  lol , Its great anytime! 

[phade]

There you go thinking about the humans again. Let’s equate that to deer - sex any time or sex during a specific condensed timeframe to ensure healthy fawning and drop periods overwhelming predatory impact by flooding the market in a short period of time. Compared to the sex anytime of a long drawn out rut cycle spreading fawns to early and late times allowing predators to have a longer period of time to prey on fawns during the critical first few weeks where they don’t have the ability to flee or avoid being eaten.




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[Lawdwaz]

10 minutes ago, phade said:

There you go thinking about the humans again. Let’s equate that to deer - sex any time or sex during a specific condensed timeframe to ensure healthy fawning and drop periods overwhelming predatory impact by flooding the market in a short period of time. Compared to the sex anytime of a long drawn out rut cycle spreading fawns to early and late times allowing predators to have a longer period of time to prey on fawns during the critical first few weeks where they don’t have the ability to flee or avoid being eaten.




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I'm not following.....how does the quoted text relate here?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

12 minutes ago, Lawdwaz said:

I'm not following.....how does the quoted text relate here?

I believe he is talking about the benefits of an uninterrupted breeding cycle that could take place without hunting during the rut. I am not sure that in areas like we have with high doe numbers, stopping gun season would do much at all for letting bucks lake a more complete tending in the first rut. maybe without bucks being shot the numbers would go up 

[WNYBuckHunter]

On 12/28/2017 at 4:56 AM, Storm914 said:

People say they don't see many bucks well go get or look at guys game cams because they don't seem to have any touble finding them .

Getting trailcam pics of a buck, or a bunch of bucks, is a whole different ballgame than putting a tag on one.

Want to know why its easy to get lots of trailcam pics of bucks before the season starts or through most of bow season? They are moving more due to lack of......

....you guessed it...pressure!

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

License sales numbers may still be up, but that doesn't say that they are being used at the same rate and the same enthusiasm as they used to be. Let's face it, in spite of how much we complain, the cost of a hunting license is still pretty darn cheap. I'm sure there are a lot of people who buy a license just in case they get the urge to go out. And then there are the people who want to go out just for opening day so they can say they still go deer hunting. And then there are those that go out on opening day but seem to never make it back after they head out for breakfast or lunch......for the remainder of the season. Then there are people who get counted for each different kind of hunting license that they buy. There's a whole lot more to judging hunting popularity, activity and enthusiasm than simply counting licenses.

The numbers shown were for the basic hunting license. They dont count each type of license in that number, just the number of individual people that purchased a hunting license.