IS THIS BAITING

[Localqdm]

I guess I wouldn't understand how tracking deer or pushing them into shooters is more noble or more worthy hunting than "baiting" (which food plots are far from).  I don't want to be rude, just think you are somewhat judgmental about it.

[Dave]

I guess I wouldn't understand how tracking deer or pushing them into shooters is more noble or more worthy hunting than "baiting" (which food plots are far from).  I don't want to be rude, just think you are somewhat judgmental about it.

You don't have to live up to others expectations, it's legal, you are doing the right thing. For some people even doing things legal isn't enough. Food plots help deer in the winter after the hunting season ends I think that is ethical, some say let them fend for themselves. Wonder how many hunters who have a different opinion have benefited from someones food plot I am sure they don't complain about that.

Dave

[eagle rider]

standing food plots are not hunting over bait. 

[DIAMOND D]

Lets not thrust our personal beliefs on others here. I only hunt bow, year round. That is in part due to my area I hunt and how I like to hunt. BUT that doesn't mean I dislike others who choose a gun or muzzle loader when legal (or take subtle digs by saying I guess they're conscience doesn't bother them).  It is what it is. I don't hunt traditional archery, but if I did and disagreed with anyone who doesn't, I may need to look for a trad. only forum....  I know that is not what we're discussing, but try and see the parallels here. If there are legal means outside how you do things and you can't accept them, then it's your problem. 

[Doc]

It sounds like some want to let a bunch of legislators determine their code of ethics for them. That's basically what you are saying when you state that if it's legal it is automatically ethical. Frankly, I don't think that is really what you mean, or at least I hope that is not what you mean.

There are and always have been legal activities that were not necessarily ethical. The law is not where you get your personal ethics from.

For me, ethics is a personal code that I live by that has nothing to do with the legal system. It's a further limitation beyond what society places on us. And I really don't see any problem with that. Further, I don't see any problem with someone stating that personal code here on a forum. Nobody has to agree with it, and certainly you are free to voice their own opinions and lay out your own code of ethics relative to issues.

Yes, it is uncomfortable to have someone declare that some activity that we are engaged in is considered wrong by someone's personal ethical standards, but if that's the way he feels, he certainly has a right to say so. You have the right to argue the point. But for crying out loud, don't be relying on legislators to set your ethical code. Even though we always seem to see that on these forums, that's not a very convincing argument. In fact judging from the pile of stories about politicians in the paper lately, that may be the last place you want to get your ethics ..... lol.

[nyantler]

Is it illegally baiting... probably not... but I think that if you are doing it with the intention of attracting deer to the area to be killed... illegal or not.. there still might be a question of ethics... not sure why guys wouldn't just want to kill deer the old fashioned way... like maybe actually hunt them...

Antler, I think the debate is if legal or not and we know there is no law against food plots to attract deer. Just like any other topic that we respond to it's not illegal so therefore it's OK. I don't have any food plots on my property and don't intend to have any.

Dave

I think you misread my post.. Illegal or not.. was the start of the next sentence.. meaning whether the question posed is illegal or not there is still the question of whether its ethical... if your conscience doesn't bother you and its legal.. have at it...

You can't have it both ways. If it's legal to have food plots then why is it unethical? If something is legal according to the DEC then they put us in an unethical position according to you. Why is something legal and at the same time unethical according to some hunters?

Dave

Because ethics are subjective and legal is black and white. What is ethical to you may not be to me... but legal is the same to both of us.

[Dave]

It sounds like some want to let a bunch of legislators determine their code of ethics for them. That's basically what you are saying when you state that if it's legal it is automatically ethical. Frankly, I don't think that is really what you mean, or at least I hope that is not what you mean.

There are and always have been legal activities that were not necessarily ethical. The law is not where you get your personal ethics from.

For me, ethics is a personal code that I live by that has nothing to do with the legal system. It's a further limitation beyond what society places on us. And I really don't see any problem with that. Further, I don't see any problem with someone stating that personal code here on a forum. Nobody has to agree with it, and certainly you are free to voice their own opinions and lay out your own code of ethics relative to issues.

Yes, it is uncomfortable to have someone declare that some activity that we are engaged in is considered wrong by someone's personal ethical standards, but if that's the way he feels, he certainly has a right to say so. You have the right to argue the point. But for crying out loud, don't be relying on legislators to set your ethical code. Even though we always seem to see that on these forums, that's not a very convincing argument. In fact judging from the pile of stories about politicians in the paper lately, that may be the last place you want to get your ethics ..... lol.

Doc, I think it's wrong for someone to be talked down to because you don't conform to their ethics. And by no means have this legislature , or any other legislate your ethics for you. You can't teach ethics either you have it or you don't.

Dave

[DIAMOND D]

Your absolutely correct. Very well said BTW. I shoot bow only (compound) and over food plots, I shoot bucks does, and I've even tagged a button buck (with a leg injury ), I live by my own ethics being stricter than the legal guidelines, and I sleep VERY well at night knowing how I conduct myself...

[Doc]

Doc, I think it's wrong for someone to be talked down to because you don't conform to their ethics. And by no means have this legislature , or any other legislate your ethics for you. You can't teach ethics either you have it or you don't.

Dave

Then we agree that the argument about something being ethical just because it is legal, misses the definition of both. So, I hope that we don't see that argument used again.

As far as someone talking down to anyone, I know that a lot of times with ethics discussions that's the way it sometimes sounds. Maybe we don't always express ourselves as clearly as we should. That is more likely the real problem and not the ethics discussions themselves.

[nyantler]

It sounds like some want to let a bunch of legislators determine their code of ethics for them. That's basically what you are saying when you state that if it's legal it is automatically ethical. Frankly, I don't think that is really what you mean, or at least I hope that is not what you mean.

There are and always have been legal activities that were not necessarily ethical. The law is not where you get your personal ethics from.

For me, ethics is a personal code that I live by that has nothing to do with the legal system. It's a further limitation beyond what society places on us. And I really don't see any problem with that. Further, I don't see any problem with someone stating that personal code here on a forum. Nobody has to agree with it, and certainly you are free to voice their own opinions and lay out your own code of ethics relative to issues.

Yes, it is uncomfortable to have someone declare that some activity that we are engaged in is considered wrong by someone's personal ethical standards, but if that's the way he feels, he certainly has a right to say so. You have the right to argue the point. But for crying out loud, don't be relying on legislators to set your ethical code. Even though we always seem to see that on these forums, that's not a very convincing argument. In fact judging from the pile of stories about politicians in the paper lately, that may be the last place you want to get your ethics ..... lol.

Doc, I think it's wrong for someone to be talked down to because you don't conform to their ethics. And by no means have this legislature , or any other legislate your ethics for you. You can't teach ethics either you have it or you don't.

Dave

You absolutely can teach ethics... but that doesn't mean that the person being taught will learn them... and we all know the same ethics and what is ethical or not... we have ourselves created different degrees of ethical behavior to justify whatever actions we decide to take... some people sleep just fine knowing how they conduct themselves.. but remember Ted Bundy slept well too knowing how he conducted himself ... did that make his conduct okay?.. just something to think about.

[Dave]

You can't teach ethics period. You can present ethical issues and debate them that's about it.  What one does is a personal decision and depends on your social and economic enviornment. I have worked for a major corporation and we have gone through this exercise and either the employees are ethical or they are not. We have had many employees terminated for ethical issues even though they have taken mandatory ethics in business classes. So they know the consequences and have paid the price.

Dave

[DIAMOND D]

.. but remember Ted Bundy slept well too knowing how he conducted himself ... did that make his conduct okay?.. just something to think about.

Yes, Bundy and his dead bodies, and me and my food plot. Patterned us out have you!?! 

In all seriousness the current and common school of thought on the serial killer profile is that they are tortured souls with internal conflicts unimaginable, and they know what they are doing is wrong, many times actually wanting to get caught... just food for thought.

[Localqdm]

ny, do you really believe baiting is wrong?  I understand if someone feels it is less 'sporting', but wrong? 

[Localqdm]

And I agree most of us know in general right from wrong, and laws don't make something right or wrong, they are just laws.  God said what is right and wrong, but some people ignore His laws, some people have lied to and weakened their consciences, and sometimes we have scruples about things that we are overworried about, and aren't wrong.  But if we think they are, then we individually should avoid them.

[bubba]

ok so I am wondering.  If I plant food plots on my property, how far should I be hunting from them to be ethical?  100 yards 200 yards a mile or maybe not hunt the property at all since I have food plots/bait on there.  I pesonally stay away from the food plots and sit the trails leading to them.  What is the actual difference between that and sitting on the edge of the plot?  In my mind absolutely none.  So if there is a natural food source which by that I mean one I did not plant, is it ok to sit on the edge of that?  What is the actual difference?  I stay away from the plots as I see more deer during legal light staging to go to the plots closer to dark.  I also have a sanctuary that no one is allowed in including me.  I am not growing plots to enhance larger antlers, but so the deer have food year around and they stay in my area.  I hunt big deer too, but to me big is body size.  If that makes me unethical, GUILTY. 

[Doc]

My attitudes toward hunting are quite different from many of today's hunters. That doesn't mean I am right and they are wrong. That simply means that I have a personal opinion that hunting is completely unrelated to animal husbandry, and I really don't want to get involved in treating the local deer herd like something to be trained to avail themselves for easier hunting. I tend to hunt the deer as I find them without training them to come to some food source that I have provided. Part of hunting is finding and interpreting the location and timing of whatever food sources the herd is using at whatever time they want to use them. It doesn't include creating those things. That's just my own personal view of hunting, and the way that I conduct my hunting. If others feel that they need those kinds of activities to get their deer, I have no problem with that. I really do believe that my view of hunting is now in the minority, but old traditions and relationships to hunting die hard. Whether I would call it hunting ethics or not, I'm not sure. It all is just issues that many of us struggle with and we seldom all reach the same conclusions.For me it's just a feeling of how my hunting should be conducted and a set of limits on exactly what I am willing to do to kill game. Hopefully as I try to explain the reasons for my selected limits, it doesn't come out too "preachy", judgemental, or offensive. That isn't my intent. I do understand that I represent just one opinion on a lot of this stuff and often my opinion is a minority one.

[nyantler]

ny, do you really believe baiting is wrong?  I understand if someone feels it is less 'sporting', but wrong?

No I never said it was wrong... I said in my eyes it is questionable and something that doesn't seem sporting to me... maybe it depends on the motivation... if I was hunting to feed my family like the settlers... it might be necessary... if you are trying to contrlo populations.. again it might be necessary... I just am of the feeling that if you are really a "HUNTER" then that is what you should be doing... hunting... not laying in wait at a food source until the deer you want shows up... it's not wrong.. just not what I personally would call hunting... but that's just me... I don't find waiting to be very exciting... but hunting is.

[cboy18]

Is this baiting or nutrition? I would not bait. If you don't hunt under it, there is no problem legal or ethical.

[nyantler]

My attitudes toward hunting are quite different from many of today's hunters. That doesn't mean I am right and they are wrong. That simply means that I have a personal opinion that hunting is completely unrelated to animal husbandry, and I really don't want to get involved in treating the local deer herd like something to be trained to avail themselves for easier hunting. I tend to hunt the deer as I find them without training them to come to some food source that I have provided. Part of hunting is finding and interpreting the location and timing of whatever food sources the herd is using at whatever time they want to use them. It doesn't include creating those things. That's just my own personal view of hunting, and the way that I conduct my hunting. If others feel that they need those kinds of activities to get their deer, I have no problem with that. I really do believe that my view of hunting is now in the minority, but old traditions and relationships to hunting die hard. Whether I would call it hunting ethics or not, I'm not sure. It all is just issues that many of us struggle with and we seldom all reach the same conclusions.For me it's just a feeling of how my hunting should be conducted and a set of limits on exactly what I am willing to do to kill game. Hopefully as I try to explain the reasons for my selected limits, it doesn't come out too "preachy", judgemental, or offensive. That isn't my intent. I do understand that I represent just one opinion on a lot of this stuff and often my opinion is a minority one.

That makes two of us Doc... It's just a personal preference.. and one i adopted as I got older... I like making deer hunting as challenging as i can... I have gotten passed the "have to get a deer at all costs" mentality of my youth...

[burmjohn]

nyantler I'm with you I think food plots are a legal way to bait its not Habitat improvement.  The only difference between food plots and baiting is that it cost more to plant a food plot then buying  100lb of corn and its legal

Yes it is habitat improvement.  The maybe 1% of the entire year I'm on my food plot, the other 99% its free from humans.  Turkey, deer, bear, everything that passes through gets to thrive on the plot.

[G-Man]

Somewhere by where your hunting area is a farm..maybe old and overgrown but its there..and probably some appletrees are left from it...so walking thru the big woods you stumble upon this old orchard realise that its a good place for deer and hunt there! Is it ok because you didn't plant it? maybe it wasn't planted for a food plot but thats what it is now. natural food source definatly not, but you hunt it without question. so because a food plot is new  and you know why it was planted it now not ethical? hunting on a trail that leads to a farmer's alfalfa field 3 miles away..any different? Or trails to a ceder swamp in late season? Identifying the main food in an area is a great way to hunt game! Habitat manipulation is what man does best.. making trails for ease of access to an area,logging,making a clearing to put up a cabin/camper, all of this creates a better habitat for deer! so even if nothing is planted the deer will move in and use theis new edge..isnt that another form of a food plot? If sitting over a field isn't for you fine, if you feel better going back deep in the woods hunting a trail to the same field makes you feel better about yourself that fine as well.. Everyone  is entitled to their opinion just dont force it upon others.. legal is legal if we agree with it or not....

[Doc]

I don't think anyone is forcing anything on anybody. So far all I have seen is people stating their opinion and a few reasons why they hold that opinion ....... sounds like typical internet forum activity to me.

As far as what is a food plot and what isn't, I think we all know the definition as it applies here. I doubt that anyone seriously considers an old abandoned farmstead that has reverted back to the wild with an apple tree on it to be a food plot or a bait pile ....  : .

[Dave]

Somewhere by where your hunting area is a farm..maybe old and overgrown but its there..and probably some appletrees are left from it...so walking thru the big woods you stumble upon this old orchard realise that its a good place for deer and hunt there! Is it ok because you didn't plant it? maybe it wasn't planted for a food plot but thats what it is now. natural food source definatly not, but you hunt it without question. so because a food plot is new  and you know why it was planted it now not ethical? hunting on a trail that leads to a farmer's alfalfa field 3 miles away..any different? Or trails to a ceder swamp in late season? Identifying the main food in an area is a great way to hunt game! Habitat manipulation is what man does best.. making trails for ease of access to an area,logging,making a clearing to put up a cabin/camper, all of this creates a better habitat for deer! so even if nothing is planted the deer will move in and use theis new edge..isnt that another form of a food plot? If sitting over a field isn't for you fine, if you feel better going back deep in the woods hunting a trail to the same field makes you feel better about yourself that fine as well.. Everyone  is entitled to their opinion just dont force it upon others.. legal is legal if we agree with it or not....

Totally agree with your assessment.

Dave

[burmjohn]

Somewhere by where your hunting area is a farm..maybe old and overgrown but its there..and probably some appletrees are left from it...so walking thru the big woods you stumble upon this old orchard realise that its a good place for deer and hunt there! Is it ok because you didn't plant it? maybe it wasn't planted for a food plot but thats what it is now. natural food source definatly not, but you hunt it without question. so because a food plot is new  and you know why it was planted it now not ethical? hunting on a trail that leads to a farmer's alfalfa field 3 miles away..any different? Or trails to a ceder swamp in late season? Identifying the main food in an area is a great way to hunt game! Habitat manipulation is what man does best.. making trails for ease of access to an area,logging,making a clearing to put up a cabin/camper, all of this creates a better habitat for deer! so even if nothing is planted the deer will move in and use theis new edge..isnt that another form of a food plot? If sitting over a field isn't for you fine, if you feel better going back deep in the woods hunting a trail to the same field makes you feel better about yourself that fine as well.. Everyone  is entitled to their opinion just dont force it upon others.. legal is legal if we agree with it or not....

Totally agree with your assessment.

Dave

Me too.

[fasteddie]

By Jove , I think you've got it G-man ! A good assessment . Now I expect there will be more BS arguments about it ! http://www.downsouthhuntingforums.com/images/smiles/bad_3_wait.gif[/img]