Why ask Why?????

[First-light]

I have a very interesting question to ask. I was going to respond to WNY on another thread about letting the public hunt my private property. I was thinking deer hunting, no way don't trust anyone except friends. I stopped writing and thought, hell I let two kids rabbit hunt last year and didn't know them from a hole in the wall. What is the difference between small game and big game? Weapons, safety, I don't do much small game so who cares? Is it the prize, the game, the bragging rights we are after shooting that big buck? The sacred deer on my property that are mine? Well who really owns them, they were on my neighbors property this morning, he owned them for a bit now they are down the road on Joe's property, new owner. Is it the population of deer that do it, grouse are not that plentiful but I let people hunt them, no problem. Does the whitetail deer have a spell over us that makes us so selfish?

Your thoughts?

BTW-my lands posted, don't ask to hunt.lol

[nyantler]

Actually Burt I think you have hit it on the head... I have said it before and will say it again... most hunters would rather cut out their tongue than have to tell there buddies they didn't get a deer... the "have to get a deer at all costs" is a major problem with hunting today in my eyes... and brings out the worst in a lot of hunters. Some of my best hunting years were years I didn't get a deer... I look at the deer as the bonus that I sometimes get for all the fun I'm having hunting. Although I must admit that I was one of those selfish hunters many years ago... then I grew up.

[First-light]

Yea, the deer is the bonus. I have also grown into a different hunter and enjoy seeing other guests on my property bag a deer.

[Pygmy]

I never understood that mentality....

When I grew up, my family owned a couple hundred acres, more or less... It was posted, but friends and neighbors were welcome to hunt it, and we were welcome to hunt neighbor's land.

Strangers would usually get permission to hunt if they stopped and asked politely...

Then my ex wife and I owned a couple of hundred acres...pretty much the same deal.. There was never an issue of US owning the deer..They were just there, and of course, they moved from property to property..

I currently control the hunting on 100 acres of good deer woods.. Several friends and neighbors have permission to hunt there...

The change came when the land use in this area changed from agricultural to recreational...Older farmers and landowners died  or could no longer afford the taxes, and the land was sold off in 50 to 100 or 200 acre parcels, mostly to people from out of the area.. They pay the taxes, and most of them don't want anybody else on thier property...That is thier perogative....

When I was  a kid, I could walk as far as I wanted in any direction and never be on land where I was unwelcome.. Nowadays  I stop at the next property line, and I'm lucky if the owner will even allow me to track or retrieve a wounded animal.. Sad, in a way, but that's the way it is...I am glad I had a chance to hunt in the old days, when people were not so self centered and selfish..

[Dave]

Yea, the deer is the bonus. I have also grown into a different hunter and enjoy seeing other guests on my property bag a deer.

I have the same feeling about hunting I would rather have one of my sons get a deer than myself. I have shot plenty and like to bow hunt much more these days. But they are not serious hunters they end up back at the house watching football. But it's the company that I really love just being with my boys the hunt is secondary.

Dave

[Chevy]

I think now a days the cost of land and taxes are so high folks question letting others on for free. In the old days it was really no big deal. Everyone hunted everywhere.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I think now a days the cost of land and taxes are so high folks question letting others on for free. In the old days it was really no big deal. Everyone hunted everywhere.

I honestly dont believe its money or taxes most of the time.

Burt, you started a real good topic here, and I am extremely interested in how different people answer it. To answer the question of who owns the deer, Nobody in particular. It doesnt really matter where they are standing, you dont own them, neither does Joe down the street, or your neighbor. They are a resource found in the state, for the state to utilize how it sees fit. We elect and indirectly employ people to oversee the resources of the state.

Heres another point to ponder. You dont own your land, you lease it. The government can take it away from you whenever they see fit, with or without compensation.

[Dave]

I never understood that mentality....

When I grew up, my family owned a couple hundred acres, more or less... It was posted, but friends and neighbors were welcome to hunt it, and we were welcome to hunt neighbor's land.

Strangers would usually get permission to hunt if they stopped and asked politely...

Then my ex wife and I owned a couple of hundred acres...pretty much the same deal.. There was never an issue of US owning the deer..They were just there, and of course, they moved from property to property..

I currently control the hunting on 100 acres of good deer woods.. Several friends and neighbors have permission to hunt there...

The change came when the land use in this area changed from agricultural to recreational...Older farmers and landowners died  or could no longer afford the taxes, and the land was sold off in 50 to 100 or 200 acre parcels, mostly to people from out of the area.. They pay the taxes, and most of them don't want anybody else on thier property...That is thier perogative....

When I was  a kid, I could walk as far as I wanted in any direction and never be on land where I was unwelcome.. Nowadays  I stop at the next property line, and I'm lucky if the owner will even allow me to track or retrieve a wounded animal.. Sad, in a way, but that's the way it is...I am glad I had a chance to hunt in the old days, when people were not so self centered and selfish..

Years ago the locals told us we only owned the land when we were there and they owned it when we left.

Dave

[Pygmy]

Yeah, I know, Dave..There are always guys who feel they can hunt anywhere they want.. Most of them don't own land, or own a little parcel which they keep to themselves and then hunt on everybody else.. They are a problem for all of us...

Not an easy solution...However if you can catch and prosecute a couple of those guys, trust me, word gets around..

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I really think this access is a domino effect. a guy get denied permission for what ever reason and any land he control gets shut down except for his group...and so on and so on. Truth be told I have done it.Lost some great hunting because the next generation that took the farms over either hunted themselves and didn't want anyone there (there choice and would never begrudge them the option) or were taken over by folks that did not want hunting. now I have access and control on 3 peices of property and they are posted and only family and friends are allowed. I hate to feel like I have to be protective of the property, not because of the deer that might get taken but just the possible loss of the experience and access to me. Access is so hard to come by I can't take the chance someone will screw it up for me....get the owner pissed.....and it is gone.

I remember as a kid hiking and hunting for as far as you could walk in a day and no one cared. Posted signs were the exception rather than the rule. and even property that was posted you could usually get easy access by a polite knock on the door. ...except for one place.....Any one ever hear of the George Cogar and the huge tracts of land around Schuyler NY.....no one gets on there or ever did....lol....and it is LOADED wit deer.

[nyantler]

I wouldn't begrudge a landowner his right to deny access to his land for hunting... some I'm sure just don't want the extra hunters maybe because it will over crowd the area... or are uncomfortable hunting with someone they are not familar with... my problem would be more with those that don't want to share THEIR deer with anyone or are afraid that someone else might kill THEIR deer..

If I was selfish and thought I needed to kill a buck not of my personal standards just to say I killed a buck... my good friends 16 year old son John would not have gotten his first buck last year... a buck I passed on 3 days earlier after tracking him to his bed at about 20-25 yards... I didn't kill a buck last year... but got just as much enjoyment in hearing the story of how John got his.

[Doc]

I have to wonder just what the reaction of most landowners would be if they had a buck that they patterned, had a stand set up waiting for exactly the right wind direction and after all of that the wind direction finally was just right and it was time to sneak in there and take advantage of that "first-time-in" opportunity. And then as you closed the last 25 yards toward your stand, there sat a portable ground blind set up by someone who didn't think that it was necessary to get permission to hunt your property. How would that set up your day? Yeah, I know you all are going to say "oh well, that's the way it goes ..... what the heck. There's always next year". However if the truth were really to be told, I'm pretty sure that you would be mad as hell with weeks maybe months of scouting, planning and waiting for just the right conditions, all trashed. Or how about those of you who actively manage your land, applying all the QDM principles, and you came across signs of "brown and down" hunting taking place there. Might you be a bit upset that you didn't get around to putting up those posted signs? How about if you arrived at your favorite stand and found the ground under it littered with candy wrappers and cigarette butts. Or you arrived at your camp to find the place vandalized and trashed. Or everytime you walked your property, you came home with pocketsful of plastic sandwich bags, candy wrappers or pop cans. Or how about you get to the top of your hill just to find the place ripped up with ATV tracks. Maybe you might get a bit disturbed by someone thinking you needed a wake-up call by ripping off a few shotgun rounds a few yards from your bedroom. Or maybe you might get a bit put off while watching a massive drive setting up in front of your house.

These things and more are problems that landowners wrestle with each season, and believe me there is no philosophical "oh well ..... what the heck ..... things happen" kind of attitude. Instead, most landowners rightfully lock the place up, and throw some pretty heavy restrictions on just who is going to hunt there, and see to it that only a few well-known hunters who can be somewhat controlled and trusted are allowed on that property. I have experienced some of these situations (and others not mentioned), and I can assure you I did not take those infractions lightly and I didn't just shrug my shoulders and say "oh well .... what the heck".

And by the way, I will say that hunters are not the only reason for posted signs and a general cautious attitude toward granting random permissions. I have had dirt bikes ripping up the hill, and hoof-pocked, mudded up, horse trails established (including tree cutting and having the whole place decorated with surveyor's tape). I have had ATV trails built across my property. I have found old camper's fire locations. All this without a single word or attempt at receiving permission. So whether anyone wants to listen or not, I will repeat what I said on the other thread: Do not assume that because there are posted signs or because someone has refused you permission that there is something evil or sinister in that refusal. Most posted signs have a long history of abuse behind their existance and very little of it has anything to do with selfishness. It's usually not a situation of them trying to hoard deer but it is simply trying to control the mayhem that occurs these days on private property when certain safeguards and restrictions are not taken.

So while we all wish that all hunters and other property users were trustworthy, thoughtful, people that self regulate their behavior, numbers and their activities, the fact is that they do not. And so it is up to the landowner to establish control in any fashion that is legally available to him.

[growalot]

Thank You  Doc.....unfortunately you and I have had the same exact problems....but Ssshhhh......don't say anything...YOU'll be giving hunters a bad name....Well it's high time hunters start policing other so called hunters and publicly say enough is enough!!

[Doc]

some I'm sure just don't want the extra hunters maybe because it will over crowd the area... or are uncomfortable hunting with someone they are not familar with...

This reminds me of an interesting experience that happened one time when my brother-in-law from Canada brought two of his fellow rail workers down for a hunt at my place. The first thing we did was to set up a target and get back to see how everyone was shooting.

Now this is not to imply anything about Canadian hunters, but the whole shooting thing was a total fiasco. The older gent that he brought down proceeded to rip off 5 shots as quick as he could pull the trigger. I looked at my brother-in-law and got kind of a "don't ask me" sort of look. We each took our turns, checked the targets and went back for another go at it. Again rapid-fire .... 5 shots. So this time I had to ask about that. The explanation was that he was raised when they could hunt deer with dogs and rapid fire was the normal way that he was taught to shoot. Right away that told me that I would have to get as far away from him as possible when we went out in the morning. But anyway we continued to shoot and on one of the trips up to the target the younger Canadian was kind of lagging back apparently, unknown to us he was fooling with his gun. When we were almost to the target, I heard a loud bang behind us. I never did figure out what he was doing or what happened, but the gun went off when he wasn't expecting it. That was when I called a halt to the shooting preparations and pointed across the road to the far hill explaining (quite seriously) that that was where the two of them would be going in the morning. My Brother-in-law and I would hunt my side of the valley.

So when you mentioned how some landowners are uncomfortable hunting around someone they are unfamiliar with, this little episode came to mind ..... lol. I think I now fall into that category.

[Doc]

Heres another point to ponder. You dont own your land, you lease it. The government can take it away from you whenever they see fit, with or without compensation.

That is something that I have been known to often say over the years. Anyone who thinks they really own the land, should just try to withold their school taxes or town or city property taxes. Real quick you will recieve notification from the real landlord demanding his "rent" and clarifying who really owns it. Also, if you think that you even have some kind of control over it, just try building a garage that doesn't conform to the local zoning regulations. You just might be surprised how much they have to say about where and what and how you are going to build it. And perhaps if you have no conforming location for it, they may tell you that you can't build it at all ..... lol. On the other hand, you do get the right to take on all the liabilities related to the property.

[zeke83]

"I remember as a kid hiking and hunting for as far as you could walk in a day and no one cared. Posted signs were the exception rather than the rule. and even property that was posted you could usually get easy access by a polite knock on the door. ...except for one place.....Any one ever hear of the George Cogar and the huge tracts of land around Schuyler NY.....no one gets on there or ever did....lol....and it is LOADED wit deer."

Culvercreek, Some if not all of that land was sold and made into a upscale housing development not too long ago

[Culvercreek hunt club]

"I remember as a kid hiking and hunting for as far as you could walk in a day and no one cared. Posted signs were the exception rather than the rule. and even property that was posted you could usually get easy access by a polite knock on the door. ...except for one place.....Any one ever hear of the George Cogar and the huge tracts of land around Schuyler NY.....no one gets on there or ever did....lol....and it is LOADED wit deer."

Culvercreek, Some if not all of that land was sold and made into a upscale housing development not too long ago

Bummer, That place was huge. He was buying any land he could and he actually bought my one uncles farm. Pulled up and said he wanted to buy the place. My uncle said it wasn't for sale. He said 'everything is for sale. How much do you want?" My uncle threw out a number expecting it to sent him back to his car....it did...to get his check book....wrote it ot and said his lawyers would be in touch to do that paperwork.

i remember going on the roads around there at first thaw in the spring and there were hundreds of deer in the fields on the south faceing hills. Quite the area.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Not to try two threads together but I have been thinking. Pat was postig about filling Nuisance tags  for a farmer and it started the gears turning. When I was growing up in Central Ny there were TONS of small operating farms around me. Every mouthfull a deer ate was one that wasn't available for the cattle, dairy cows or for sale. Almost all those farms have been sold or shut down. They have been broken into smaller parcels....Now I realize that not all the property back then was owned by farmers but it sure seemed like my area had a ton.

DO you guys think the demise of the small farmers in NY has played a role in the mind set shift on hunting access?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Heres another point to ponder. You dont own your land, you lease it. The government can take it away from you whenever they see fit, with or without compensation.

That is something that I have been known to often say over the years. Anyone who thinks they really own the land, should just try to withold their school taxes or town or city property taxes. Real quick you will recieve notification from the real landlord demanding his "rent" and clarifying who really owns it. Also, if you think that you even have some kind of control over it, just try building a garage that doesn't conform to the local zoning regulations. You just might be surprised how much they have to say about where and what and how you are going to build it. And perhaps if you have no conforming location for it, they may tell you that you can't build it at all ..... lol. On the other hand, you do get the right to take on all the liabilities related to the property.

Yep. Dead on Doc. I know it didnt really have to do with the topic at hand, it was kind of along the lines of the deer not being owned by anyone, and I just thought it might be an interesting talking point.

[Elmo]

Where would one look for posting of people offering their land to hunters?  Is there a network of some sort or is there no other option but to do go door to door like a insurance salesman?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I wouldstart with any farmer groups that are local organizations....maybe co-ops do an internet search for vegtable farmers...they may not have livestock and may be more likely to grant access or have permits. It is easier for them to prove damage that guys with hay or grain lots. Might want to take a walk through a farmers market and buy...then start talking

[orion]

I feel safety is the issue a lot. We have up to 10 people hunting 300 acres at any given time. We are family with a few close friends.  We all know where each other will be at the start of the day and if they plan on changing during the day.  Having people you might have given permission to hunt during the summer just come on up and get in the woods could be a big problem safety wise. Not to mention the hassle it would be to find someone 50 yards away when the sun comes up. 

Nothing to do with the deer they roam, at least by me, way off our 300 acres all the time. You have to hope they get by others and make it back to ours without any encounters.

[catskillkid]

Right on Doc!

I have had all those problems and much more.

[5.9cummins]

Where would one look for posting of people offering their land to hunters?  Is there a network of some sort or is there no other option but to do go door to door like a insurance salesman?

POSTED signs are by no means a flat out NO. Knock on doors but don't expect anything. You might get shot down 10 times before you get a yes. Other times everyone says yes. If your looking for specific property types look at orchards and nurseryman - they really don't like bucks rubbing there trees. Crop farms and dairy are hit and miss but still worth a try. I wouldn't bother with a farmers market. The vendors at a FM are small and have small chunks of land  but you might find a honey hole. Larger operations have lots of opportunities and the owners are busy running there business and don't usually have as much time to hunt. Be prepared for company because most likely the farm hands will be out there as well.

If your looking to identify a piece of property go to the county seat and ask to look at the property tax maps in real property services. If your lucky you can look online on the counties website and they may have electronic maps complete with ortho imagery (areal photos) and sometimes topo overlays.

Dont be afraid to butter up the landowner / farmer either. I will often drop by with a zip lock back of fresh perch fillets in the winter, a bag full of turkey jerky in the spring or a venison back-strap in the fall. They will never forget who you are again.

I do think selfishness is a problem but its more of an issue for us as hunters. It reflects badly on us and what we enjoy but i am not sure it has that much affect on land access. Sure i know of guys that restrict access to there property because of the "big one" but in most cases when i talk with a guy about why he doesn't let people on his property its because of all the stuff doc listed.

I am lucky that i have a job that puts me in contact with a lot of landowners but all the time growing up i was using the above tactics and they work. I am only 28 so it wasn't all that long ago. Just don't give up.

I had one piece of property that i asked permission for 10 years straight with no luck. The farmer and I knew each other quite well living in a small community but he just "didn't let anyone hunt". The year before i moved i got permission to hunt that property. Neighbor shot a 150" buck in swamp that year and to this day i have not set foot on the property  :'( .

[Doc]

I'll bet that most of the problems of hunting access occur because so much of rural America has been continuously chopped up into smaller and smaller parcels. If you take an area that consists primarily of 10 or 20 acre parcels and plunk a house, yard and out-buildings in the middle of it, that doesn't leave a lot of room for any safe hunting activity.

Also I believe that the rural areas are being populated by more and more anti-hunters. I do know of a couple of large parcels that are owned by people who actually hate hunting. No one hunts those anymore.

And then there are some of these places that are locked up by commercial hunting places, complete with the high fences and all. If you've got the cash you can hunt there, but for the most part they are large under-utilized chunks of good deer habitat.

There are also the pieces of leased land. Many of these are locked up because the guys are paying some pretty heavy chunks of cash for the priviledge of hunting there and free-loaders are not welcome.

And while I don't personally know of any around me, I am sure there are other properties that are heavily controlled by those who have invested time and money applying QDM efforts, and they only need enough hunters to adequately control populations to their specifications.

I look at a lot of these places that are now denied to today's hunters and I can't think of a single thing that the government could do to open them up to public hunting. Further if you look at a lot of them, they are the sort of thing that will continue to grow and make the situation worse.