Sportsmen Strongly Support Yearling Buck Protection in NYSDEC Deer Plan

[TheHunter]

Sportsmen announced today that they strongly support the NYSDEC Deer Management

Plan’s continuation in existing areas and expansion of yearling buck protection for the

2012 season. The proposed hunting changes will expand the existing yearling buck

protection with antler restrictions to include seven additional Wildlife Management Units

(WMUs).

How Yearling Buck Protection with Antler Restrictions is addressed in the Draft Deer

Management Plan:

David Hartman, President of New York State Whitetail Management Coalition

(NYSWMC), stated, “We are pleased that the Department recognizes that the plan can

offer multiple models for Yearling Buck management. Hunters' attitudes can vary widely

from one end of the state to the other. The Department seems to understand that there has

to be some latitude when dealing with regional and local issues."

Hartman added, “We commend Commissioner Martens and the DEC staff for

incorporating the retention and expansion of Yearling Buck Protection with Antler

Restrictions beginning with the 2012 season in the Draft Deer Management Plan. We

look forward to working with the Department as they adopt and implement this

program.”

Bill Willis spokesman for the Five County Coalition of Sportsmen and member of the

Delaware County Department of Economic Development stated “Five counties in South

Eastern NY, Sullivan, Ulster, Delaware, Greene and Schoharie have proposed yearling

buck protection with antler restrictions for the last three years. We are glad to see that the

DEC has incorporated this request in the Deer Management Plan. He added based on

DEC’s survey of hunters who went afield in the proposed units, 67% of the hunters in the

affected area supported antler restrictions. “Antler Restrictions have overwhelming

support from the communities and are a local home rule issue.”

Les Armstrong, Co-Chairman of the New York State Conservation Council (NYSCC)

Archery Committee, Greene County Federation of Sportsmen, NY Deer and Elk Farmers

Association and Vice Chair Hudson Mohawk RCD stated, “The NYSCC Archery

Committee voted to recommend that members vote in favor of Five Resolutions

promoting Yearling Buck Protection with Antler Restrictions at this year’s April meeting.

He added the NYSCC Big Game committee also supported all five resolutions. “After the

DEC confirmed the dramatic improvement in buck harvest composition in the pilot areas,

members chose to embrace the modern deer management taking hold in 21 other states.”

How Yearling Buck Protection with Antler Restrictions is working in New York:

“The current Antler Restriction Program is fully achieving the sportsmen’s goal of

protecting yearling bucks. Yearling Bucks comprise only 15% of the total harvest and the

balance 85%, is adults 2.5 years and older. The harvest of 3.5 year old bucks is up to 36%

of the total harvest, a 258% increase. Sullivan and Ulster Federations in the area support

continuing and expanding the Antler Restriction Program and DEC surveys found that a

majority of sportsmen want to continue the AR program” said David Hartman, President

of NYSWMC. (See our report Yearling Buck Conservation with Antler Restrictions)

Jay Martin, Big Game Chairman for Ulster County Federation, pointed out, “According

to DEC data, deer numbers were at very low levels when the pilot AR programs were

first implemented. We have experienced a resurgence of both deer numbers and as the

harvest data clearly shows, we now have a much better balanced age structure in our buck

population.”

Tom Yager of the Sullivan County Federation explained that “Sullivan County has shown

the best results with the antler restriction program. The best results have been observed in

WMU 3H, where buck harvest numbers are back to pre AR levels and hunters are

harvesting significantly more mature bucks. This is a direct result of the regulation to

protect yearling bucks and very low doe tags issued at the start of the program.”

Forest Darder of the Sullivan County Federation stated, “Most importantly buck hunter

satisfaction has increased for 56% of the hunters in Sullivan County as a result of the

Antler Restrictions according to Cornell 2011 Survey.” He added that “the survey found

that 70.5% of Sullivan County Hunters wish to continue the Antler Restriction program

as is.”

“I have never seen a single white-tailed deer management program that has invigorated

and excited hunters more. Hunters in the current AR areas are hunting a deer herd that

many generations of NY hunters have never experienced” stated Dick Henry a recently

retired New York DEC biologist.

David Hartman, President of New York State Whitetail Management Coalition added

“Both Ulster and Sullivan Counties have harvested the biggest bucks since the late

1920’s in the Antler Restrictions areas.”

[steve863]

The DEC is in the business to control the deer population and need NOT worry about the amount of antler points on a male deer's head when it gets taken down by a hunter.  My letter has already been sent to the DEC in opposition to expanding AR's in the new areas proposed.

[TheHunter]

The DEC is in the business to control the deer population and need NOT worry about the amount of antler points on a male deer's head when it gets taken down by a hunter.  My letter has already been sent to the DEC in opposition to expanding AR's in the new areas proposed.

My letter has already been sent in support.  The DEC job is not to JUST control the population.  Where do you hunt? In any of these proposed area's? My guess is no. 

[steve863]

For your information I hunt in 4P which is a unit where they are considering implementing AR's.  The statement you posted is nothing but propaganda by those who want all hunters to pass up the smaller bucks in hopes that there would be more bigger bucks for them to shoot since they lack the hunting skills to kill them without implementing AR's.

[burmjohn]

The DEC is in the business to control the deer population and need NOT worry about the amount of antler points on a male deer's head when it gets taken down by a hunter.  My letter has already been sent to the DEC in opposition to expanding AR's in the new areas proposed.

My letter has already been sent in support.  The DEC job is not to JUST control the population.  Where do you hunt? In any of these proposed area's? My guess is no. 

I'd have to agree... The DEC does more then just control the population, they are concerned with the age of the deer, the age of the deer taken, and the health of the herd. 

[burmjohn]

For your information I hunt in 4P which is a unit where they are considering implementing AR's.  The statement you posted is nothing but propaganda by those who want all hunters to pass up the smaller bucks in hopes that there would be more bigger bucks for them to shoot since they lack the hunting skills to kill them without implementing AR's.

I'm for it, and I do not believe its "propaganda".  Lack hunting skills? Nice...  I've seen huge improvements in the buck size and action in my area, 3H.  I'm far from a horn hunter, but its great seeing some larger racks running around, where a few years ago that really was not the case.  I have not taken a buck in many years, mostly by choice.  Last year after taking a doe we were at the local butcher, ED Grund in Cochecton.  Ed said not only are the antlered deer being harvested have larger racks, but he deer themselves have been quite larger.  To the point where the boxes he'd normally use to pack up the customers meat are now a few sizes larger.     

[steve863]

I'd have to agree... The DEC does more then just control the population, they are concerned with the age of the deer, the age of the deer taken, and the health of the herd.

You can keep thinking that if you want.  Your choice.  All the DEC cares about is keeping the deer population in check from year to year and collecting license fees from hunters.  Any other interest they might pretend to show is there to make people like you guys believe that they are really interested about any individual deer or hunter in particular.  To them a dead deer is a dead deer and that's all they care about.  The 1 1/2 year olds will breed just as well with the does as the 3 1/2 year olds, so they surely need not worry about deer populations not replenishing themselves.

[Dave]

For your information I hunt in 4P which is a unit where they are considering implementing AR's.  The statement you posted is nothing but propaganda by those who want all hunters to pass up the smaller bucks in hopes that there would be more bigger bucks for them to shoot since they lack the hunting skills to kill them without implementing AR's.

I'm for it, and I do not believe its "propaganda".  Lack hunting skills? Nice...  I've seen huge improvements in the buck size and action in my area, 3H.  I'm far from a horn hunter, but its great seeing some larger racks running around, where a few years ago that really was not the case.  I have not taken a buck in many years, mostly by choice.  Last year after taking a doe we were at the local butcher, ED Grund in Cochecton.  Ed said not only are the antlered deer being harvested have larger racks, but he deer themselves have been quite larger.  To the point where the boxes he'd normally use to pack up the customers meat are now a few sizes larger.   

John, I agree and hunt not far from you in Fremont center. Our area has a few clubs and we don't shoot does, and small bucks. We have been doing this for many years now and it hasn't helped. May be the antler restriction law will make a difference, I hope anyway. But if the locals shoot the deer when we aren't there will this really help? That can be the only reason there's no mature bucks in our area they are shot by the local who don't follow the rules.

Dave

[burmjohn]

I'd have to agree... The DEC does more then just control the population, they are concerned with the age of the deer, the age of the deer taken, and the health of the herd.

You can keep thinking that if you want.  Your choice.  All the DEC cares about is keeping the deer population in check from year to year and collecting license fees from hunters.  Any other interest they might pretend to show is there to make people like you guys believe that they are really interested about any individual deer or hunter in particular.  To them a dead deer is a dead deer and that's all they care about.  The 1 1/2 year olds will breed just as well with the does as the 3 1/2 year olds, so they surely need not worry about deer populations not replenishing themselves.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but its not the case.

[burmjohn]

John, I agree and hunt not far from you in Fremont center. Our area has a few clubs and we don't shoot does, and small bucks. We have been doing this for many years now and it hasn't helped. May be the antler restriction law will make a difference, I hope anyway. But if the locals shoot the deer when we aren't there will this really help? That can be the only reason there's no mature bucks in our area they are shot by the local who don't follow the rules.

Dave

I'm not sure about the local problem, though there were a few cases where people found deer with their heads cut off and carcases left behind right around the block from where I am.  None the less, you will always have a few bad apples local or not.

[Doewhacker]

AR's don't do a whole lot, it helps spare the 1.5's and then they are slaughtered at 2.5. There is not much increase in the 3.5 and up take. Time will tell what the DEC decides to do, my letter was sent aswell. 

[Dave]

John, I agree and hunt not far from you in Fremont center. Our area has a few clubs and we don't shoot does, and small bucks. We have been doing this for many years now and it hasn't helped. May be the antler restriction law will make a difference, I hope anyway. But if the locals shoot the deer when we aren't there will this really help? That can be the only reason there's no mature bucks in our area they are shot by the local who don't follow the rules.

Dave

I'm not sure about the local problem, though there were a few cases where people found deer with their heads cut off and carcases left behind right around the block from where I am.  None the less, you will always have a few bad apples local or not.

John, a few years back we had the exact same issue, deer found on our property with head cut off. Also a doe found dead in our meadow to lazy to go and get it, but had no problem shooting though.

Dave

[burmjohn]

AR's don't do a whole lot, it helps spare the 1.5's and then they are slaughtered at 2.5. There is not much increase in the 3.5 and up take. Time will tell what the DEC decides to do, my letter was sent aswell. 

1.5 Harvest is down, 2.5 and 3.5 is up slightly. 

[G-Man]

well without ar's big bucks are taken every year.. maybe you dont see them in your area because they are a different animal in needs and habits! traditional hunting techiques do not work for mature bucks. Nys is in the top 15 states for pope and young entries, so someone is getting them. What are ar's for other than to grow big antlers? if that is so important to you there are game farms that will be happy for your buisness. For us normal hunters a big buck once in a lifetime is the normal. and passing younger ones will not stockplie big bucks in your area.

[phade]

A few things from an analytical POV:

The group is biased: In no uncertain terms or quotes, does the group credit data that supports their claim to factors outside the AR rule. This is misleading and deceptive. They want you to believe AR is THE factor that's making the supposed positive changes that they want to promote. It's not...plenty of other actions and environmental changes have contributed to the data results. The only exception is the mention for Sullivan Co. in passing.

It's a false sense brought about by confirmation bias...akin to seeing a dog streaking across a room acting crazy a minute or two before an earthquake...and then people associating that action with the idea that animals can sense earthquakes before they happen.

The writer: Even poorer job reporting....unless the bias was purposeful. The writer should have been aware that outside factors and changes in the environment have not been addressed in the article. And, seriously, how many times are you going to announce Dave is king of the free world? I see multiple mentions of him being the grand-puuuuba of the coalition. That's just poor writing and editing. Who are sportsmen, exactly? Is it some official group? Makes it sound like the hunters of NY are speaking in a single voice. I didn't know that group had that power.

[Doewhacker]

AR's don't do a whole lot, it helps spare the 1.5's and then they are slaughtered at 2.5. There is not much increase in the 3.5 and up take. Time will tell what the DEC decides to do, my letter was sent aswell. 

1.5 Harvest is down, 2.5 and 3.5 is up slightly.

I hate to play the cut and paste game but here were some important points from the DEC plan.

  Data from the pilot program indicate that harvest of yearling bucks has declined about 80%, consistent with the program’s goal (Hurst and Kautz 2011). The average number of 2.5+ year old bucks in the harvest has increased 53%, and in 2009-2010, approximately 85% of adult bucks taken in the pilot units were 2.5 years old or older.

  A majority of hunters reported being dissatisfied and having unmet expectations regarding: (1) the number of antlered bucks compared to antlerless deer seen, (2) the number of older, larger-antlered bucks seen, and (3) their opportunity to shoot larger-antlered bucks. A majority of hunters were also dissatisfied with the number of older bucks compared to the number of young bucks seen, and significantly more hunters reported being dissatisfied than satisfied with their freedom to choose which buck they could harvest.

Nonetheless, most hunters continued to express support for maintaining the mandatory program and reported that their experience in the pilot program has made them more likely to voluntarily pass up shots at small bucks in places without mandatory antler restrictions  

[Geno C]

For your information I hunt in 4P which is a unit where they are considering implementing AR's.  The statement you posted is nothing but propaganda by those who want all hunters to pass up the smaller bucks in hopes that there would be more bigger bucks for them to shoot since they lack the hunting skills to kill them without implementing AR's.

I'm for it, and I do not believe its "propaganda".  Lack hunting skills? Nice...  I've seen huge improvements in the buck size and action in my area, 3H.  I'm far from a horn hunter, but its great seeing some larger racks running around, where a few years ago that really was not the case.  I have not taken a buck in many years, mostly by choice.  Last year after taking a doe we were at the local butcher, ED Grund in Cochecton.  Ed said not only are the antlered deer being harvested have larger racks, but he deer themselves have been quite larger.  To the point where the boxes he'd normally use to pack up the customers meat are now a few sizes larger.   

John, I agree and hunt not far from you in Fremont center. Our area has a few clubs and we don't shoot does, and small bucks. We have been doing this for many years now and it hasn't helped. May be the antler restriction law will make a difference, I hope anyway. But if the locals shoot the deer when we aren't there will this really help? That can be the only reason there's no mature bucks in our area they are shot by the local who don't follow the rules.

Dave

why would you NOT shoot does?? that doesnt make any sense to me...

[solon]

  I enjoy seeing large racks, but in the end that isn't why I go hunting.  I get just as much enjoyment from goose/duck/turkey/coyote hunting and they don't have a "rack"...

if people want large racks go to where the habitat supports it...the midwest

[phade]

For your information I hunt in 4P which is a unit where they are considering implementing AR's.  The statement you posted is nothing but propaganda by those who want all hunters to pass up the smaller bucks in hopes that there would be more bigger bucks for them to shoot since they lack the hunting skills to kill them without implementing AR's.

I'm for it, and I do not believe its "propaganda".  Lack hunting skills? Nice...  I've seen huge improvements in the buck size and action in my area, 3H.  I'm far from a horn hunter, but its great seeing some larger racks running around, where a few years ago that really was not the case.  I have not taken a buck in many years, mostly by choice.  Last year after taking a doe we were at the local butcher, ED Grund in Cochecton.  Ed said not only are the antlered deer being harvested have larger racks, but he deer themselves have been quite larger.  To the point where the boxes he'd normally use to pack up the customers meat are now a few sizes larger.   

John, I agree and hunt not far from you in Fremont center. Our area has a few clubs and we don't shoot does, and small bucks. We have been doing this for many years now and it hasn't helped. May be the antler restriction law will make a difference, I hope anyway. But if the locals shoot the deer when we aren't there will this really help? That can be the only reason there's no mature bucks in our area they are shot by the local who don't follow the rules.

Dave

why would you NOT shoot does?? that doesnt make any sense to me...

Yeah, might as well shoot yourself in the foot if it's causing the ratio to get too high. That causes much less daytime buck activity...more does = less competition, less travel, etc...especially when you start getting above that 1:3 to 1:4 B/D ratio on land that is within the carrying capacity.

[Geno C]

^^ correct, saving the does throws all management out the window!

i still dont get that logic he stated... but ok lol

[SteveB]

Data from the pilot program indicate that harvest of yearling

bucks has declined about 80%, consistent with the program’s goal (Hurst and

Kautz 2011). The average number of 2.5+ year old bucks in the harvest has

increased 53%, and in 2009-2010, approximately 85% of adult bucks taken in the

pilot units were 2.5 years old or older

I would like to see the real, actual numbers - percentages don't always tell the whole story.

How many of those 80% of "saved" 1.5's  are being taken as 2.5 and older?With percentages, you could be "saving" 500 1.5's and only adding 50 to the number of 2.5 and older. Real numbers and not percentages is the only way to tell what is going on for real.

[Dave]

For your information I hunt in 4P which is a unit where they are considering implementing AR's.  The statement you posted is nothing but propaganda by those who want all hunters to pass up the smaller bucks in hopes that there would be more bigger bucks for them to shoot since they lack the hunting skills to kill them without implementing AR's.

I'm for it, and I do not believe its "propaganda".  Lack hunting skills? Nice...  I've seen huge improvements in the buck size and action in my area, 3H.  I'm far from a horn hunter, but its great seeing some larger racks running around, where a few years ago that really was not the case.  I have not taken a buck in many years, mostly by choice.  Last year after taking a doe we were at the local butcher, ED Grund in Cochecton.  Ed said not only are the antlered deer being harvested have larger racks, but he deer themselves have been quite larger.  To the point where the boxes he'd normally use to pack up the customers meat are now a few sizes larger.   

John, I agree and hunt not far from you in Fremont center. Our area has a few clubs and we don't shoot does, and small bucks. We have been doing this for many years now and it hasn't helped. May be the antler restriction law will make a difference, I hope anyway. But if the locals shoot the deer when we aren't there will this really help? That can be the only reason there's no mature bucks in our area they are shot by the local who don't follow the rules.

Dave

why would you NOT shoot does?? that doesnt make any sense to me...

Most of the guys don't shoot does during gun season or small bucks. The result last year out of 12 guys we only shot one 6 pt, and during bow one doe. We hunt about 350 acres and that's not much of a deer take. And my brother shot the buck on my 20 acres.  Last year I say more does than in previous years so if I get a DMP I will take one. The mentality is for some reason they don't shoot does but occasionally I do.

Dave

[Localqdm]

well without ar's big bucks are taken every year.. maybe you dont see them in your area because they are a different animal in needs and habits! traditional hunting techiques do not work for mature bucks. Nys is in the top 15 states for pope and young entries, so someone is getting them. What are ar's for other than to grow big antlers? if that is so important to you there are game farms that will be happy for your buisness. For us normal hunters a big buck once in a lifetime is the normal. and passing younger ones will not stockplie big bucks in your area.

I agree w/you that without AR's big ones get taken.

I live on a farm, and I could take you for a ride some evening and show you the properties that are strictly managed, and there ARE big bucks being stockpiled (at least 5 on one couple hundred acre piece that will likely go 120+ this yr.  A few of them MUCH higher.  I've seen them.)  Then we could drive a couple miles down the road where everything gets blasted and you won't find one.  I can send pics if you give me a week or so. 

Its true big bucks are different.  But I watch the individual deer around me nightly and I can tell you there are places you will may never kill a big buck no matter the technique, cause they aren't there, or a 3 yr old may rarely pass through, let alone an old deer.  Now every place is different and in some areas of NY there are more big bucks because there is better cover than big farmland, so the average hunter has a shot at them.  But someone killed a 130 here a couple yrs ago, and an old hunter was absolutely amazed.  In his entire life hunting he had never seen a deer that big.  Thats not a lack of skill if they aren't there.  Even lousy hunters see big ones once in a while when they are there.

I'm not complaining or saying we need ar's.  Just saying passing on em does work, and in some parts of NY even with skill and time logged you still probably won't see a big one. 

[ELMER J. FUDD]

You guys are wasting your time sending letters. This is NY, if you wanna get it done, send money!

  Really, I think nature is too complex to measure all the factors. Unless you track and monitor every buck and who harvested the ones that get taken, good luck with that.

[steve863]

Lets not forget that in a couple of regions where AR's have been implemented it has been quite difficult to even draw a DMP in the last couple of years.  Add to this the rule that the hunter can only shoot a buck of at least 3 points to a side, so what real incentive do hunters have to even hunt these areas where most everything that moves is illegal to shoot?  Might as well not even hunt.  And please don't tell us that they can bowhunt, because everyone doesn't bowhunt and many people don't have the time needed for bowhunting and bowhunters alone will never control the deer population as is necessary.  This has all been argued here before.  I will agree that the data provided by those who want AR's implemented is very flawed and biased, yet the DEC seems to get suckered in by it over and over again.  In one statement the DEC says that AR's are not biologically necessary for a healthy deer herd, and in another they are proposing to implement them in more areas.  This just tells me that the DEC is talking from both sides of their mouths to try to please everyone and keep selling hunting licenses which is a significant source of revenue for them.