Should the .410 be legal for deer?

[damore81]

Yeah, and maybe in that thread we could discuss whether the .410 would be adequate enough for our wives?? Just kidding

Definitely wouldnt stop my wife. I would need something bigger especially after breaking the news to her that we would be spending thanksgiving upstate hunting instead of with her family. lmao

[Fletch]

A bow doesn't have knockdown power neither, yet I would be strung up by many here if I suggested bows should be made illegal for hunting. A .223 also doesn't have a whole lot of knockdown power for deer and it wouldn't be my first choice as a deer caliber, but it's not illegal for deer in NYS. I doubt anyone will lobby to make the .410 legal, but in reality there is little reason that it shouldn't be given the other things out there that are perfectly legal.

Put it that way and it makes you think. But I think my bow has a better chance of going through two ribs or two shoulders than the 410 has of going through one.

Not knowing the ballistics of a 410 though I am just another opinion.

[Dinsdale]

Well put. I am a bow hunter as well and exactly as stated above, the limit to every weapon needs to be realized by the handler and as my previous post states, my .410 would smoke a deer at 50 yards without hesitation but beyond 75 yards it would be questionable. Any shot that is questionable should not be taken and in my book is unethical regardless of weapon!

I could agree with that;

just some rough numbers

410......110gr slug.....580 ftlb at muzzle

28 ga....164gr slug.....1318..............530 at 100yds

20 ga....330gr slug.....1600..............680 at 100yds

357 mag..140gr..........609....federal ammo

Know some careful hand gun guys, and while the 357 I would consider just about the minimum for a careful shot, it can be done if selective. They (and I) approach it the same way most bow folks do; looking for that perfect shot.

There are always those that will try for shots beyond their weapons or personal capabilities.

[Fletch]

I could agree with that;

just some rough numbers

410......110gr slug.....580 ftlb at muzzle

28 ga....164gr slug.....1318..............530 at 100yds

20 ga....330gr slug.....1600..............680 at 100yds

357 mag..140gr..........609....federal ammo

Know some careful hand gun guys, and while the 357 I would consider just about the minimum for a careful shot, it can be done if selective. They (and I) approach it the same way most bow folks do; looking for that perfect shot.

There are always those that will try for shots beyond their weapons or personal capabilities.

the 357 that is at the muzzle as well right?

[steve863]

Definitely wouldnt stop my wife. I would need something bigger especially after breaking the news to her that we would be spending thanksgiving upstate hunting instead of with her family. lmao

OK, that does make sense. I think we also need to take into consideration the size of their butts. Maybe we could use a sort of formula like Culver mentioned above? Like how many lead balls would fit into one of their cheeks for adequate gauge selection? LOL

[Dinsdale]

the 357 that is at the muzzle as well right?

Yes....off Federals box for what they consider a hunting load.

I extended the 100 yds for the 20 and 28 as they happen to straddle the 410 and 357 loads at muzzle for a comparison at a longer distance; the 20 being better known to most.

Shotgun numbers from Brenneke ammo

[damore81]

OK, that does make sense. I think we also need to take into consideration the size of their butts. Maybe we could use a sort of formula like Culver mentioned above? Like how many lead balls would fit into one of their cheeks for adequate gauge selection? LOL

Oh man I hope my wife never sees this! lmao

[tughillhunter]

How far back in years does this go? As long as I remember any centerfire of .22 and over was legal in NYS, and I know .243 have been used as long as I can remember also.

.22 is a rimfire

[camper4lyfe]

I think the key is energy. Kinetic energy is 1/2*mass*velocity^2. You can't compare smaller, faster rifle rounds to a bigger, slower shotgun rounds because the velocity is so much higher in rifles that the energy they provide is leaps and bounds ahead of a slug.

Muzzle energy for a .410 Remington 87.5gr is 704.3 ft-lb

Muzzle energy for a .223 Hornaday 55gr is 1282 ft-lb.

Therein lies why a .223, or any rifle, is better than a .410. Energy. At 200 yds, the .223 still has more energy than the .410 does at the muzzle.

[camper4lyfe]

.22 is a rimfire

A .22 is. A .22-250 is not. He said .22 centerfire, not .22.

[steve863]

.22 is a rimfire

So what is a .223 or .22-250? They are centerfires firing a .22 caliber bullet.

[WNYBuckHunter]

steve, are you really talking about balls in a woman's cheek in the gun section? Why doesnt that surprise me? :lol:

[Culvercreek hunt club]

.22 is a rimfire

A .22lr is a rimfire but there are many many 22's that are centerfire. even some .17's

[steve863]

steve, are you really talking about balls in a woman's cheek in the gun section? Why doesnt that surprise me? :lol:

I guess if one wants to keep their mind in the gutter, there is lots of gun and shooting terminology that can sound a bit dirty. LOL I must warn you boys not to get me started.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Too late!!!

[phade]

I think the key is energy. Kinetic energy is 1/2*mass*velocity^2. You can't compare smaller, faster rifle rounds to a bigger, slower shotgun rounds because the velocity is so much higher in rifles that the energy they provide is leaps and bounds ahead of a slug.

Muzzle energy for a .410 Remington 87.5gr is 704.3 ft-lb

Muzzle energy for a .223 Hornaday 55gr is 1282 ft-lb.

Therein lies why a .223, or any rifle, is better than a .410. Energy. At 200 yds, the .223 still has more energy than the .410 does at the muzzle.

Bingo. People toss around the 800 ft-lb as the measuring stick for a deer kill...but that's probably the ultra conservative side of things. .410s have killed more than one deer where legal.

I would still love to take a deer with a .410 someday (where/when legal). Don't know why I have that desire...but I do.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

now here is a wrinkle to the law. I know one old timer up north and he used his .410 as a deer and small game gun. It was an old heavy barreled single shot. For deer he put (IN NOW WAY DO I CONDONE OR SUGGEST THIS) in a .41 mangum pistol cartrige. Now I don't know about you but that is one trigger I would never squeeze. He swore the DEC didn't have a problem because he was using a legal round for deer.

[phade]

There are some people who are big into retrofitting the .410 to shoot those 41s....and they get some impressive performance #s.

I think there's a few people who do it that participate in the H&R/NEF forums.

[Dinsdale]

now here is a wrinkle to the law. I know one old timer up north and he used his .410 as a deer and small game gun. It was an old heavy barreled single shot. For deer he put (IN NOW WAY DO I CONDONE OR SUGGEST THIS) in a .41 mangum pistol cartrige. Now I don't know about you but that is one trigger I would never squeeze. He swore the DEC didn't have a problem because he was using a legal round for deer.

A 45 LC (long colt) will drop into a 410......thats the basis of the Taurus Judge handgun. Same rim dimensions for the base.

I'm not recommending it;just sayin'.LOL

Its also why Brenneke is making 28ga slugs, to introduce a 28ga revolver. Around a .550 bore +/- and did all the research for Taurus.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-taurus-raging-judge-28-gauge-revolver/

[132 eight pointer]

A .22lr is a rimfire but there are many many 22's that are centerfire. even some .17's

That explains some confusion I had about .17's being rimfire or centerfire, there are both.

[SteveNY]

I think the key is energy. Kinetic energy is 1/2*mass*velocity^2. You can't compare smaller, faster rifle rounds to a bigger, slower shotgun rounds because the velocity is so much higher in rifles that the energy they provide is leaps and bounds ahead of a slug.

Muzzle energy for a .410 Remington 87.5gr is 704.3 ft-lb

Muzzle energy for a .223 Hornaday 55gr is 1282 ft-lb.

Therein lies why a .223, or any rifle, is better than a .410. Energy. At 200 yds, the .223 still has more energy than the .410 does at the muzzle.

Exactly, that is what it comes down to. I mean, you can kill a deer with a rock too, but its not the best tool for the job.

Bingo. People toss around the 800 ft-lb as the measuring stick for a deer kill...but that's probably the ultra conservative side of things. .410s have killed more than one deer where legal.

I would still love to take a deer with a .410 someday (where/when legal). Don't know why I have that desire...but I do.

I'd like to take a deer with a spear one day, they just wont let me.

[nyantler]

I'd hunt them with a hammer if they had a season!!

[RifleSharpShot]

410 that sounds a little weak for a deer plus i don't really know why one would want to hunt deer with such a small round!I like to drop em down and drag em out with not having to track!!

[Pygmy]

As long as I remember, in areas where rifles are permitted, ANY centerfire rifle or pistol is legal in NY...

That reg was on the books years before the .243 was even dreamed of, so the .243 was never a minimum caliber in NY.

That would include any of the .22 centerfires, from .22 Hornet or .22 Rem Jet ( remember that one ..It was a .357 mag case necked down to .224 )through .224 Weatherby, plus even ridicously anemic rounds such as .25 auto..

As far as I know, rimfire rounds, such as .22LR or .22 WMR have never been legal to use.. They have killed LOTS of deer, though, in the hands of poachers...

Edited November 16, 2011 by Pygmy

[13BVET]

I own a 410 and it barely has the nuts to kill a grouse let alone a deer. I have shot a few grouse with my 410 with very poor results. 28 guage maybe 410 no way in hell.

I am going to respectfully disagree with this. Remingtons 2-1/2 #6, or 7-1/2 express is deadly on grouse. I have actually taken a few turkey's with the .410. The key is to have at least a 24" barrel with a full choke. The longer the barrel, the better it is. Having said that, slugs would be used for deer, not bird shot.