New AR areas in 2012

[steve863]

Not to mention it will help the genetics

over in time.

And exactly how will it do that?

[Dave]

this is just getting annoying - the regions that the proposed AR for next year need it because of the number of hunters taking young bucks and does. Now im sorry that the catskills do not have the agri to support the huge bucks that are out in the western part of the state (i will take it up with the glaciers that formed the region in the last ice age).

the catskills need this to promote a healthier herd - most notably due to hunters from the city/long island that "need" to kill a deer during the season. Aside from the "nice 6s" ive seen on my trail cameras at 1am I have not seen a single basket during bow or gun season in two years - best ive seen was a spike. If we give it 2+ years we will maybe be able to see at least SOME improvement.

Are you saying that in the western part of the state they don't shoot spikes and forkhorn bucks. I would conclude that there are more deer killer in WNY than in the southern tier and there fore more spikes as well. Just MHO ,But no AR??

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I don't think the writer is paid by any one, and when he was paid it was by the DEC. Retired DEC deer biologist. Can you prove that this man was paid by "QDM" trophy hunters and just made up this scientific evidence and studies? He even cites studies both private and DEC.

So he isn't pulling in any cassh for all the articles he is writing on this? The seminars he is doing for QDMA? Hw has gotten no compensation for it?

I think I am going to have to request the QDMA filing of their expenses as a non for profit and take a peek. If these people ar egetting paid their view can hardly be considered unbiased

[Culvercreek hunt club]

the catskills need this to promote a healthier herd - most notably due to hunters from the city/long island that "need" to kill a deer during the season. .

Finally!!!. The dam city and long island is our problem in the state. From welfare right down to deer harvest. Maybe AR's aren't needed. Maybe what we need is a wall across the state at Newburg and not let any of them upstate.

[steve863]

Finally!!!. The dam city and long island is our problem in the state. From welfare right down to deer harvest. Maybe AR's aren't needed. Maybe what we need is a wall across the state at Newburg and not let any of them upstate.

LOL, they might go up thru Mass, Vermont and into Canada and then back down into NYS from there. Sort of a reverse trip that the mountain lion made. LOL

[dave6x6]

I would like to know from the anti AR guys if they feel their area is doing just fine the way it is? You have very strong feelings about not changing anything. Are you saying that this is as good as it gets and that the plan currently in place is working perfectly fine.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

From scouting through bow season and up to this point in gun. I have seen more bucks in my hunting areas than I have does. Way more. I have not been luck enough to get one close enough yet but I have seen atleast a half dozen that I would have spent the money to mount. So I guess the answer is I don't see the rational to change things where I am and I will never support a measure that takes a hunters choice of harvest away.

[Doewhacker]

I would like to know from the anti AR guys if they feel their area is doing just fine the way it is? You have very strong feelings about not changing anything. Are you saying that this is as good as it gets and that the plan currently in place is working perfectly fine.

I gave you some ideas in the other thread, the which would you prefer one but I will repeat it here for you. Create a buck permit system like the current doe permit one, limiting buck take in the over hunted areas. That way it is actually controlled and not a free for all. AR supporters might not like that though for that might mean they can't take that sought after trophy of theirs. Mean while I could go about my merry way shooting doe's.

[SteveB]

I am pro AR i think its time we allowed our yrling bucks a chance to

grow.This is just me I respect everyone elses views but its nice to shoot

a wall hanger every now and again.Not to mention it will help the genetics

over in time.NY state has the same type strain of deer to grow record

book buck's Its just been our hunting populations mentality to shoot the

first buck we see.I am a meat hunter as well so a nice fat doe suits me just

fine My son and I only shoot 6 or better.I would love to see a state wide AR

sorry just my feeling not trying to step on anyone I 'd rather shoot a 7 or 8 pt

than a spike or 4 pt.

Shoot a buck around me in CNY based on it having 6 points and you most likely have shot a 1.5 buck.

Even better chance it isn't older then 2.5. Points based AR will have little to no statistical impact here so please stop advocating it statewide.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I gave you some ideas in the other thread, the which would you prefer one but I will repeat it here for you. Create a buck permit system like the current doe permit one, limiting buck take in the over hunted areas. That way it is actually controlled and not a free for all. AR supporters might not like that though for that might mean they can't take that sought after trophy of theirs. Mean while I could go about my merry way shooting doe's.

Perfect!!..Love it!!. In the WMU's with all these problems....lottery system just like the doe permits.

[SteveB]

I would like to know from the anti AR guys if they feel their area is doing just fine the way it is? You have very strong feelings about not changing anything. Are you saying that this is as good as it gets and that the plan currently in place is working perfectly fine.

I am saying that points based AR in my area will do little to nothing to save 60% of the 1.5 bucks and nearly 80% of the 2.5's. Instead it will target them.

[Doc]

I would like to know from the anti AR guys if they feel their area is doing just fine the way it is? You have very strong feelings about not changing anything. Are you saying that this is as good as it gets and that the plan currently in place is working perfectly fine.

I have to say that I am satisfied with the fact that trophy deer do exist here and some are taken every year. Also they are not cheapened by being behind every tree. In other words when someone takes a big buck around here, it is indeed a noteworthy event. Do we match the hunter-heros on Saturday morning TV with their farm raised and genetically engineeed monsters? ....... not hardly. Can I live with that? ....... absolutely. I have to hunt hard for what I get, and that doesn't bother me a bit. Would I change any of that by risking the loss of choice for myself and others? ...... no. Do I enjoy hunting in its present form? ...... more than anything else that I do.

So, if I am to be honest, I can't really say that I am ready to sign on to any of the latest pop management schemes. So my answer is "Yes, life is good in our deer woods". I have no idea what others need from their hunting, but my hunting needs are being met just fine. As a qualifier, I will admit to hunting in one of the WMUs that has a high harvest and supposedly a deer density that is quite a bit above the state norm. Perhaps that effects my attitude somewhat. Could hunting be better here? ..... sure anything can be made better, but not at the expense of hunter numbers, or hunter choices.

[Dave]

I hunt in 4W , there will be AR in my area next year. Which I am not in favor of even though my camp doesn't shoot spikes but that is our choice. This year our gang did pretty good we shot a 10 pt, two 8pt bucks and a 5pt buck. So I would say we are satisfied we don't expect for everyone to get a buck but that's ok. Plus we shot one doe the last weekend. I don't think that AR will make things better,it will just take away our choice as hunters.

[nyantler]

Everyone has their own opinion and their right to it.

Personally, I have done the research about ARs in the rest of the country, the fact is that they work. I think the DEC went about it the right way and implemented it in pilot areas at first and not wide spread. One of the WMUs I hunt has had the AR for 3 years now, it's showing its benefits already. The proof is there, it works.

I just think they should have done this 10-15 years ago.

On the other hand, there are people around where I hunt that use deer for the meat and RELY on that meat every year. Maybe there can be some kind of special tag for those kinds of families. I am no law maker, so I dont know how this could work or would work. Just a thought.

Maybe they should be able to use their buck tag as a doe tag if they're only after meat.. or maybe they should have the choice to forego a buck tag if they want and get a doe tag instead... they wouldn't be able to kill a buck, but they would have an opportunity for meat. That might work if they don't want to hunt AR bucks.

[nyantler]

I gave you some ideas in the other thread, the which would you prefer one but I will repeat it here for you. Create a buck permit system like the current doe permit one, limiting buck take in the over hunted areas. That way it is actually controlled and not a free for all. AR supporters might not like that though for that might mean they can't take that sought after trophy of theirs. Mean while I could go about my merry way shooting doe's.

Wow that's actually not a bad idea Doe!! Might be good for overhunted areas...only problem would be if somone hunts in another area but lives in the overhunted area.. they might not be able to get a tag for the area that they hunt. I like the idea of taking a doe first before you can use a buck tag in certain areas.. and the doe must be reported before the buck tag is used as well.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Doc you really have to figure out what side of the fence(face) you are going to talk from.If you go back to post #76 you say its real hard if not impossible to shoot any any kind of deer in your woods.But now you say life is good in your woods. Its not that it really has bearing on my hunting but i just cant figure out where you are at in your posts!!!

[nyantler]

I tell you, this lust for horns has got to be some sort of mental condition. You guys keep touting how AR's have nothing to do with trophy hunting, that it's geared more to help out deer biology and no sooner does the discussion turn into horn measurements. Come on boys, some of us are not all as gullible as you and can see thru all the smoke here.

You are right Steve.. there hasn't been one person that has mentioned the real reason AR's should be adopted and how they are really beneficial to the deer... it's a shame but most guys think its just about having more big bucks to hunt... which is the wrong reason to have them... it may be a good residual benefit.. but not what makes AR's a good idea.

Edited December 14, 2011 by nyantler

[NFA-ADK]

Quote-Don't you think young guys (or gal's)would be more interested in taking a huge stud buck like the one's you have taken and shown them pictures of? (In the new AR zone) Or would they rather shoot a doe or spike like some get every year now? You want the pinto or the corvette? You know his/her answer...

No I don't.I have a 10yr old daughter and she loves to fish but only if she's catching fish and it doesn't have to be a big fish just as long as she's catching fish otherwise she will lose interest in a hurry.I believe the same to be true if she were hunting or most young hunters for that matter, they would be happy just to shoot a deer regardless of size.

My thoughts on AR's.I hope they don't implement them in my area.I hunt deer because I enjoy all the work and preporation that is involved in the taking of a deer be it with a bow or gun and I like eat them.As much as I love to hunt them if I didn't eat them I wouldn't hunt them.Sure I like to shoot a big buck but not to the point where I don't care if other hunters leave the sport and others don't join the sport of hunting because of my obsession with big antlers.

She is still young, but ask her this: Does she want the "Ballerina Barbie. In her pretty pink tutu. My Birthday. I was 10, and do you know what they got me? *Malibu* Barbie, they had to go! " Quote from adams family, sorry could not resist, lol...

My point is this: If asked at any new hunter safety course: If a spike and a 8 point were in front of you what one would you want to shoot? The anser is the 8 pt most of the time. Anyone who says they don't want or would not shoot a monster 8pt is lying to appease someone or is not a true hunter in my opinion. And granted any deer for a new hunter is a trophy... After she has grown up and old enough to drive, she would choose the corvette over just about any other junk type of car... Including a pinto...

And the point of that was this: As a new hunter I would think he or she would like to get a trophy or at least have a chance at one and that is the bennifit of good AR and land management. The fact that thier ARE large deer in the area make that possibility... In so far as AR causing hunters to loose interest, SO BE IT. They would have stopped anyway... They were looking for an excuse to leave this just hastened it. I just don't see hunters leaving the sport cause of AR. They might leave the area but they will not stop hunting... Again if the do because of AR they would have anyway in my opinion... As far as I am concerned AR has nothing to do with hunter retention it has to do with heard maturity plain and simple, at least for me. Now don't reply to this I have another 80 something pages on AR I am trying to read, LOL... Again this is just my opinion... I could care less if it does happens or not cause I use my own AR restrictions and again the hunters that leave or stop would have anyway they were never really into hunting to begin with, just did it cause friends did and was the thing to do at the time...

[nyantler]

From some responses here I think many of you pro AR guys... (which i am one)... really have no idea how the concept of AR's came about as part of a management plan... some of the QDM guys ought to educate themselve on the original QDM model... selling AR's as just a trophy deer producing concept is what has turned some of the anti-AR guys off... If I didn't already know why AR's were conceived to begin with and listened to some of the arguments given buy pro AR guys for why they are for them.. I think I'd be turned off too.

Edited December 14, 2011 by nyantler

[Dinsdale]

So he isn't pulling in any cassh for all the articles he is writing on this? The seminars he is doing for QDMA? Hw has gotten no compensation for it? I think I am going to have to request the QDMA filing of their expenses as a non for profit and take a peek. If these people ar egetting paid their view can hardly be considered unbiased

If you would like to ask him yourself; he is a frequent visitor and sometimes poster on another hunting forum I moderate on.PM me for contact info if you wish. I think you would find him very approachable and genuine person of outstanding character. Mr Henry is very giving of his time and has even set up a deer biology lecture for our forum at a get together we have had. Edited December 14, 2011 by Dinsdale

[Dinsdale]

From some responses here I think many of you pro AR guys... (which i am one)... really have no idea how the concept of AR's came about as part of a management plan... some of the QDM guys ought to educate themselve on the original QDM model... selling AR's as just a trophy deer producing concept is what has turned some of the anti-AR guys off... If I didn't already know why AR's were conceived to begin with and listened to some of the arguments given buy pro AR guys for why they are for them.. I think I'd be turned off too.

Good post.

[nyantler]

And exactly how will it do that?

When there are more larger bucks.. there is more competition for breeding rights.. only the strongest bucks will win that right...usually (not always) those are also the biggest of the bucks... not necessarily antler wise, but physically... that ensures that healthy, strong and physically superior bucks will be doing most of the breeding passing those superior genetic qualities on to future generations of bucks... if hb270 was refering to passing on Antler size genetics.. his statement would not necessarily be true

Edited December 14, 2011 by nyantler

[orion]

"After she has grown up and old enough to drive, she would choose the corvette over just about any other junk type of car... Including a pinto.."

In reality it's drive a pinto or get a ride in a corvette every few years and walk the rest of the time,,,,,, Now ask them to choose.

Do you really think there is going to be a big buck behind every tree?

[orion]

For the shoot a doe instead crowd. There are lots of areas in the state that the deer herd can't support the "shoot a doe instead attitude".

To do ARs you need a large population of deer first, then you pass AR, then you shoot does to make up for the lack of bucks that will be taken in the first few years, then you hope things didn't get screwed up.

[dave6x6]

So far the only two guys that think things are fine are two guys and myself. Doc, Culver and myself all coincidently hunt primarily 8h. What are the chances? Things are good here but the state is aweful big and just seems that the status quo is hurting alot of areas. Doewhacker has a concept that on the surface seem to make some sence with the buck lottery. Alot of states out west seem to make that system work so i'll have to give that some thought. Boy i hate to give him credit but i guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.. LOL