Seriously

[growalot]

Bubba....Thank you....I was very specific in the way I made that post...the whole time thinking of your response......you did not disappoint...lol

You do need to re-read...not once did I ever attack YOU...Nearly every thing I posted was in question form and not a criticism of you personally...I wanted you to think about your ...lets be nice here....... approach to answering his venting

I have been to 6 hunter safety courses all in different places...2 for my self and 2 each for my kids...let me tell you those six.... though I'll dually note.... mine to the kids... were years apart...not uniform and hey..... lacking in so many ways to count...thus my saying NYS...not you personally..as you inferred...needs to improve the curriculum and training of instructors ...

Now it is great that your students have never been in a shooting incident God Bless them for that and the Family members that actually taught them to hunt responsibly...

So I'll settle on the premiss that your feel out of sorts with ppl in general believing in the wearing of B/O....Your tone infers you feel under attack so I'll take your rant at me with a grain of salt...as Mr B says..."Thanks for coming in you made a difference"

[WNYBuckHunter]

Per data reported at the bottom of http://www.cdc.gov/m...ml/00044112.htm , out of 356 two-party (not self inflicted), hunting associated firearms injuries, between1989 through 1995, 259 wore no blaze orange, and 84 did. You can make out of that whatever you want, but I figure it all says that there simply is no excuse for not wearing it.

Is it flawless? ....... obviously not. Is it a very significant safety measure? ..... the numbers speak for themselves. By the way, this report also noted that only 81% of the hunters wear blaze orange.

The problem with just looking at those numbers alone, is they do not indicate how dark it was or any other circumstances of the "accident". If you are shooting after dark, BO isnt going to make a difference.

Do I wear BO? Yes. Do I think BO should be mandatory? No. A color alone isnt going to fix stupid.

[scobar]

I wear both, when off my property BO hat, on my posted property camo. Hunt only with ML. Only hunt from a stand so I can identiy my surrounding quickly. Only shoot at walking or standing deer. I think it works pretty good this way. In over 40 years of hunting I have to admit I have never been in a "holy crap" what could have just happend here situation.

I may agree that BO on state land is not such a bad idea.

[bubba]

He still has that recliner on his front porch.........

Hey Burt if you have one do not give up your regular job for a career in comedy. You will starve to death.

[bubba]

Bubba....Thank you....I was very specific in the way I made that post...the whole time thinking of your response......you did not disappoint...lol

You do need to re-read...not once did I ever attack YOU...Nearly every thing I posted was in question form and not a criticism of you personally...I wanted you to think about your ...lets be nice here....... approach to answering his venting

I have been to 6 hunter safety courses all in different places...2 for my self and 2 each for my kids...let me tell you those six.... though I'll dually note.... mine to the kids... were years apart...not uniform and hey..... lacking in so many ways to count...thus my saying NYS...not you personally..as you inferred...needs to improve the curriculum and training of instructors ...

Now it is great that your students have never been in a shooting incident God Bless them for that and the Family members that actually taught them to hunt responsibly...

So I'll settle on the premiss that your feel out of sorts with ppl in general believing in the wearing of B/O....Your tone infers you feel under attack so I'll take your rant at me with a grain of salt...as Mr B says..."Thanks for coming in you made a difference"

Please re read my response. I did not ask if you had ever attended a hunter safety course. I asked if you had ever attended an instructor course or seen the curriculum. My post stands if you haven't you have no clue about the program and how it is run. If you feel you have the ability to rescue the program and make it better, I will gladly send you the contact information to be come an instructor. Otherwise I see you as an armchair quarterback. My point was and is because I am an instructor I can still have an opinion without every response having to be arent you an instructor? I teach by the curriculum and to be honest most guys in my area that become instructors do so with my mentoring and either approval or my denial recommendations get them in or out. I never said wearing BOP is a bad thing. My point is and always will be it isnt the only thing. And if it becomes mandatory, it will be the only standard to identify a target. No orange must be an animal. or as some said someoine wearing DUMB clothes.

Disclaimer. All words in this post are my opinion and have no bearing on my abilities to be a safety instructor.

Edited December 23, 2011 by bubba

[Paulie]

Bubba, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you as well!

I'll repeat myself once more...I wasn't trying to make this a BO war. I know a lot of guys that wear camo (most of them wear some orange while walking and take it off when they are up their tree). With regards to my own situation, I have a 3 yr old at home and don't want her to be fatherless because someone identified me incorreclty...so i wear orange. to be safe!

The guys I saw were in full camo and face masks walking very slow. It was in mature hardwoods and pretty brushy...I always look for other people no matter what they wear...the fact of the matter is that if the trees line up properly and the brush is thick enough your not gonna see the camo unless you are superman. The entire time this guy was gutting the deer I couldnt make him out with bino's. I could only see some "glaring" occasionally, which was either his knife or his cell phone reflecting the sun and the deer's belly.

And the reason I didn't get down and give him a piece of my mind is becasue I haven't hunted that much this year....I figured with all the walking around they were doing they make kick something my way and my daugther want me to bring home a "bucky deer"....so I stayed in the stand to continue my hunt.

The other instance where this happend to me I gave them a good piece of my mind and told the kid that this is not the right way to learn....espically since they were tresspassing.

[growalot]

bubba when time permits ..I'll pm a response....this has become a "as usual" post...so I won't drag out it's hopeful death....Merry Christmas

Paulie...I hear ya ...understand been there....and agree...and glad everyone left healthy sorry for not getting the deer ...good for you though

Edited December 23, 2011 by growalot

[nyantler]

I really don't see the problem with bubbas position... he isn't saying that you shouldn't wear orange... in fact, he even has said that it is safer.. he was just making the point that a mandatory orange rule would create a situation where hunters might just be looking for orange instead of identifying their target.. I think thats valid...

I am all for wearing something orange during the gun season... I am hoping that others are doing the same... I am quite sure that I will never mistake a man (or woman) for deer... but I may not see a hunter in camo standing still in the woods behind a deer that I might be shooting at... and I would say that any hunter that shoots someone under that condition should not be held accountable... yet that wouldn't change the fact that the hunter would still always have to live with the reality of having shot someone.. not something that anyone should have to live with through no fault of their own...

We can tell by Docs fact find that even mandatory BO laws won't stop all hunter shootings... nor will it keep some from still wearing all camo... and I think the only mandate should be that any young hunter under a certain age should be required to wear B/O... keeping any stupid "camo only" parent from putting his young childs life in jeopardy by not allowing his kid to be seen by other hunters in the woods.

Edited December 23, 2011 by nyantler

[nyantler]

I would also go to the extent of holding the parent criminally accountable if his kid gets shot and doesn't have orange on.. some stupid we can fix or at least make an attempt to..

Edited December 23, 2011 by nyantler

[Dave]

I think that anyone who hunts on state land should wear BO, it's for their protection. You never know who you will run across in the woods these days. I hunt private property and wear camo going to and from my stand. But if I still hunt I always wear some BO , hat and vest. Also have those Highly reflective Yellow vests too.

[nyantler]

The only problem with a State land BO rule is that in some spots there are poeple other than hunters using the land sometimes.. they would have to be required to wear it as well... and I just don't think that would go over well. Good idea though.. especially in huntable State Parks

[Doc]

The problem with just looking at those numbers alone, is they do not indicate how dark it was or any other circumstances of the "accident". If you are shooting after dark, BO isnt going to make a difference.

Do I wear BO? Yes. Do I think BO should be mandatory? No. A color alone isnt going to fix stupid.

I'm assuming that they did not only select those kinds of conditions differently for each category. In other words, I doubt that they only counted the camo-wearers who got shot near or after darkness while disregarding those B/O wearers shot in those conditions. I'm assuming that the results are random with no special slanting one way or the other. Further, the results are so stark that it's hard to imagine any influencing factors that would significantly change the obvious conclusions. Also, I'm not sure that a significant number of these incidents actually occurred near or after dark. However, when I think about blaze orange in the extreme twilight situations that I have seen on my way into or out of the woods, I must say that B/O does show up exceptionally well in those kinds of marginal lighting conditions especially when compared to camo which doesn't show up at all.

I do wish there was some way of surveying how many lives have been saved or injuries averted because of B/O, but of course that is impossible to determine. I do think people would be shocked.

However on another branch of this discussion, I am curioius about the reasoning behind those that think that blaze orange is something that they wouldn't go gun hunting without, but feel that there is some reason why it should not be mandatory. I hear this alot, but seldom hear any reasons that I can actually get behind.

So far, I have heard essentially three reasons. One is that it infringes on our God-given right to be stupid and somehow threatens citizen freedoms and the American way. Another is that passing such a law will instantly turn all hunters into idiots that will use that law as an excuse to shoot any human forms that are not B/O. And the last reason is, "I just don't want to wear B/O" (perhaps some kind of fashion statement). I'm collecting these excuses just for curiosity's sake, and would appreciate any other contributions to the list. Maybe one of these will eventually make some sense to me so I can get straight on this issue.

[Paulie]

Not sure Doc, but if you want to try and disappear what do you wear? B/O or Camo....? I think a lot of folks may be hunting in qustionable areas.....and don't necessarly want to be seen. That is the only reasoning i come up with.

[SteveNY]

Am I the only one who reads BO and keeps thinking BODY ODOR?!!?

[Doc]

We can tell by Docs fact find that even mandatory BO laws won't stop all hunter shootings... nor will it keep some from still wearing all camo... and I think the only mandate should be that any young hunter under a certain age should be required to wear B/O... keeping any stupid "camo only" parent from putting his young childs life in jeopardy by not allowing his kid to be seen by other hunters in the woods.

I don't think there is anybody saying that B/O is some kind of magic bullet that will wipe out all hunting accidents. But let me quote one further stat about the overwhelming cause of hunting mishaps that was brought out in this report. "Of the 125 incidents in which the injured hunter was mistaken for game, 117 (94%) were not wearing hunter orange, and six (5%) were wearing hunter orange; for two (1%), hunter orange information was not recorded." Now that is getting pretty close to 100%.

Relating a blaze orange law to the NYS seat belt law, I have never heard anyone say that wearing a seat belt will eliminate all car accidents or prevent 100% of the fatalities. And yet most people agree that it is a good law that saves lives.

[Doc]

and I think the only mandate should be that any young hunter under a certain age should be required to wear B/O... keeping any stupid "camo only" parent from putting his young childs life in jeopardy by not allowing his kid to be seen by other hunters in the woods.

I neglected to comment on this part of your reply. I guess I never even thought of this kind of law because I thought that I had heard somewhere that it was already a requirement. If it's not, I absolutely agree that this would be a good revision.

[ncountry]

Imo wearing blaze orange is a great idea. I do not believe there needs to be another law to protect us against ourselves though. I mean whatever happened to survival of the fittest or smartest? We have so many laws already to protect ourselves that we as humans are getting stupider and weaker every generation.No common sense or ability to think for ourselves.

[nyantler]

It may be Doc.. I'm not sure either... if not it absolutely should be... young kids don't always get to make their own decisions and shouldn't be put at risk by the stupidity of an irresponsible parent.

[bubba]

backing out of this thread before it turns into a my dad can beat up your dad thread. I will be sure to keep my opinions politically correct from now on so I do not offend anyone as I am an instructor. Merry Christmas to all.

Edited December 24, 2011 by bubba

[nyantler]

I don't think there is anybody saying that B/O is some kind of magic bullet that will wipe out all hunting accidents. But let me quote one further stat about the overwhelming cause of hunting mishaps that was brought out in this report. "Of the 125 incidents in which the injured hunter was mistaken for game, 117 (94%) were not wearing hunter orange, and six (5%) were wearing hunter orange; for two (1%), hunter orange information was not recorded." Now that is getting pretty close to 100%.

Relating a blaze orange law to the NYS seat belt law, I have never heard anyone say that wearing a seat belt will eliminate all car accidents or prevent 100% of the fatalities. And yet most people agree that it is a good law that saves lives.

I personally think wearing a seat belt is a good idea and does save lives... but do not like the mandatory seat belt law... accept for children who don't get a chance always to make there own decisions

I'm more for education instead of legislation when it comes to adults.. although I wouldn't lose any sleep over such laws because I already wear my seat belt & BO. I just hate losing another freedom.

[Doc]

It's been 3 times that I have suddenly come upon someone dressed completely in camo on a very heavily pressured piece of state land (how many did I never see?). I get so darn irritated with those guys that plant themselves in the background dressed completely in camo during gun season, just tempting fate and using me in their little game of chance. It's not just their life they're messing with. I'm not sure who it was that mentioned the fact that camo'ed hunters in the background behind a deer is a situation that can turn an innocent, safe, responsible, hunter into a person who has to spend the rest of their lives knowing that they have killed or maimed somebody. Their fault or not, it doesn't matter. It has to be a traumatic thing to live with and completely unnecessary. And sure there are those that would parrot back that old safety slogan of "Be sure of the target and the background behind it". Well, if we are to be honest about that nice sounding adage we have to admit that unless you only hunt on a shooting range with foreground and background cleared down to the ground, and earthen backstops, none of us could swear that there isn't some goof, all camo'ed up, hunkered down in the woods behind the deer. Remember the object of camo and concealment is not to be seen. I don't like it when people put me in that position, and perhaps I get a little out of sorts when some jerk comes wandering out of that backgound with full camo.

So perhaps that maybe explains a bit of my hard-line attitude when it comes to blaze orange. At least give me a chance to see you back there. Don't be puposely setting me up for that kind of horrific experience.

[fasteddie]

I agree completely with that last post Doc .

I am also a firm believer in the "Be sure of the target and the background behind it" but , if someone is wearing camo for concealment they are trying to be invisible . And I certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for shooting someone .

[bubba]

k I tried, but I cant do it. Do I think it is smart not to wear orange? NO. Do I think it should be a law? NO. Do I think it is my responsibility to make you safer? NO I just have a hard time with some of the rationalization of it. First of all not everyone in the woods during deer season is hunting deer. If I am hunting coyotes, orange is the last thing I want on. I have that right to do so during open season. IN fact some times I will sit over a gut pile to pop a couple The thought that anyone who is wearing camo is planning to break the law is preposterous at best. I guess I am fortunate enough to hunt in an area where orange is not common, and here we have manyl ess incidents than other parts of the state. As I see it you guys have already been conditioned to look for orange and if a person is not wearing it, they are in the wrong, and are stupid for wearing camo. It only validates my beginning statement that if you do not see orange no one is there. This causes you to look much less diligently for other persons. If I am in my camo in my woods or my green wool, and you walk up on me, believe me you are going to know I am there. If I am in camo or my greenwool on public land and you walk up on me again, you are going to know I am there. I am going to speak to you, I am going to apologize to you and move on. When I hunted state land, more than once I have walked on to people in complete camo at the base of a tree. I do not care what camo they are wearing, they still stand out if you are truly looking. I am conditioned to look for camo and orange is a bonus. I am willing to bet anyone here if they are in camo in the woods, I will see you, because I look for you. Again if you think everyone should wear orange, you will only be looking for orange. I have argued this point for years also. If NY state thinks orange is such a great thing and they all claim deer do not see it, why do they only want to mandate it for gun season. If it is to be mandatory make it for all big game seasons. If deer do not see it, it should not matter to archery or muzzleloading either. I can certainly shoot you just as far away with my ml as I can with a shotgun. If I had to hunt in an area where I basically feared for my life every time I went out, I would stop hunting. Realistically you are much more likely to get killed on your way to or home from hunting than you are actually hunting. You can only live in a bubble so long. But iof wearing orange gives you that false sense of security, go for it. To me it is like locking your guns in a glass front cabinet and thinking they are secure. THat remins me I need ot go get my nephews new safe. Please read the disclaimer below and act accordingly. Do I think paulie loked fo rpeople yes I do. Do I think paulie is a ssafe as he canbe, yes I do. Do I think paulie is conditioned to only look for orange yes I do as he stated in the original post I looked for orange or flash lights, and did not see any. If it were dark enough to need a light BO was not gonna stick out either.

Before I climbed the tree I looked around for flash lights or any orange I could see. Once up in my tree I did the same and then once again when it was nice and light. a direct quote

Edited December 24, 2011 by bubba

[Doc]

Just because people do not see a camo'ed individual hiding 50 to 100 yards back in the woods does not mean that they are conditioned to only see orange. The fact is that there are plenty of circumstances where blaze orange would show up like a neon sign while a hunter in the same spot with camo would not. And it is nice to say that you can spot anyone anywhere in the woods that is dressed in camo ...... well maybe BS is a bit strong, but I have seen plenty of practical situations that really cast doubt on that statement. I know better than to believe in super-heroes with super-powers ...... lol. This idea of conditioning people to shoot anything but B/O is simply fantasy. There is not one shred of evidence that that would or does happen...... anywhere ..... by anybody. It makes a good story, but there is no basis for it.

I don't think I understand your point about, how blaze orange is making it your responsibility to make me safer. It sounds like you are saying that you have no responsibility to practice basic hunting safety precautions in an attempt to avoid accidents. Quite frankly, I believe that those hunters that are out there tempting fate by placing themselves in a dangerous position are showing a lack of responsibility. Simply the admission that you think it is smart to wear blaze orange is an admission that not doing so is a dangerous decision. I really don't think it is very responsible to be out there hunting and making dangerous decisions.

As far as your comment about blaze orange when there is a gun deer season in progress (i.e. muzzleloader season), I agree blaze orange should apply there as well. In fact, anytime there is that situation, you will not find me venturing into anyplace that is inhabited by deer without blaze orange, and I know from posts that I have seen here and people that I have talked to, I am not alone in that feeling. It's not "fearing for your life", it's simply applying common sense. Anyone who feels they don't need to apply common sense and be aware of potential dangerous situations that exist or that they are creating in the deer woods is also not living up to their safety responsibilities as a hunter. I will further say that I truly believe that hunting safety is a total attitude that works both ways, for personal safety as well as concern for the safety of others around them. I know the stats, and I can roughly figure the odds are in favor of my safety but that doesn't keep me from hunting defensively. And what is wrong with that? Does it make any sense to do otherwise?

[Lever action]

Quote- If I am in my camo in my woods or my green wool, and you walk up on me, believe me you are going to know I am there.

My point is, if you were wearing blaze orange instead of camo nobody would have to get that close in order to see you.

With the new camo patterns they have now days I have a hard time believing you can spot every hunter wearing camo.