THE GREAT HEALTH CARE DEBATE..

[Dave]

Dave, I sight references from objective sources in some of my posts to show that there is fact behind the statement, not just my personal opinion. It's common practice in any journalistic or professional context. Ask anyone who went to college.

First I have a college degree. And I have never thought of this web site as a place for journalistic and professional context. Get over yourself. We are just a bunch of guys and gals shooting the breeze on hunting related topics. There is no need to write a thesis to get out points across.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Taxes have always been used to fund government programs for the common good. It is your opinion that this program is unconstitutional.

It's your oppinion that it's for the common good.

[virgil]

Taxes have always been used to fund government programs for the common good. It is your opinion that this program is unconstitutional.

It's your oppinion that it's for the common good.

Yes. I do believe that we will be a better country if everyone has health insurance.

[Dave]

Taxes have always been used to fund government programs for the common good. It is your opinion that this program is unconstitutional.

And soon it will be the opinion of the Supreme Court along with the 26 states who have files suites that it is unconstitutional.

Some of us, and I count myself among them, believe it is wrong to take anyones liberty, including that of the wealthy. So as long as there is a tax for somebody for this mess it is wrong. I'm kind of wondering under what circumstances many of you feel its alright to forcibly take money from others? You all don't seem to mind in this case.

It is never alright to forcibly take anyones money. But most definately wrong to take money from hard working Americans and give it to freeloaders and non productive people in our society. Why are we penalized for working hard and supporting our families?

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Only, it's not "free" if we paid into our whole life, is it? What's wrong with getting back from something we paid into?

Your question/point would be interesting if it was based in fact. Below is an article from the Washington Post that explains this myth. If you were truly only getting back what you've already paid into the system, you'd be getting far less than you think.

Nearly three out of five people said in a recent Associated Press-GfK poll that people who paid into the system deserve their full benefits - no cuts.

But an updated financial analysis shows that the amount workers have paid does not come close to covering the full value of the medical care they can expect to receive as retirees.

Consider an average-wage two-earner couple together earning $89,000 a year. Upon retiring in 2011, they would have paid $114,000 in Medicare payroll taxes during their careers. But they can expect to receive medical services - including prescriptions and hospital care - worth $355,000, or about three times what they put in.

The estimates by economists Eugene Steuerle and Stephanie Rennane of the Urban Institute think tank illustrate the huge disconnect between widely held perceptions and the numbers behind Medicare's shaky financing. Although Americans are worried about Medicare's long-term solvency, few realize the size of the gap.

"The fact that you put money into the system doesn't mean it's there waiting for you to collect," Steuerle said.

Do you not understand how insurance works? It's a gamble by both parties involved. My statement was intentionally broad. I made no reference to getting everything back, just anything other than nothing. You're statement is nothing more than pointing out that the current government system is not working. Do you realize that?

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Taxes have always been used to fund government programs for the common good. It is your opinion that this program is unconstitutional.

It's your oppinion that it's for the common good.

Yes. I do believe that we will be a better country if everyone has health insurance.

Then let everyone EARN the health insurance like I do.

[WNYBuckHunter]

But most definately wrong to take money from hard working Americans and give it to freeloaders and non productive people in our society. Why are we penalized for working hard and supporting our families?

Yup. I have no problem with TEMPORARY public assistance programs that help those that really need it to get back on their feet. Publicly funded programs that allow people to live off the tax payer teet, however, I am firmly against.

virgil, what you may or may not understand is that this healthcare crap is just another step towards the government MAKING you depend on them and their programs, therefore REMOVING you freedoms.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Then let everyone EARN the health insurance like I do.

With the exception of the disabled. I agree with Wny on the temporary issue.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

With the great job the Feds have done with SOcial Security and the Post Office.....why wouldn't I want them to handle my family's medical needs? What coupld possibly go wrong?

[adirondackbushwhack]

Taxes have always been used to fund government programs for the common good. It is your opinion that this program is unconstitutional.

It's your oppinion that it's for the common good.

Yes. I do believe that we will be a better country if everyone has health insurance.

And I and others believe it is unconstitutional AND is bad for the country.

[adirondackbushwhack]

And I and others believe it is unconstitutional AND is bad for the country.

Obama care that is

[adirondackbushwhack]

I find half of this argument really odd. Some argue to forcibly take my money away from me and give it to someone else. How is that good for me? Remember over 75% of my money already goes to taxes in one form or another; how much is my fair share? Aren't you guys ever satisfied? Why don't ya argue to tax imports from other countries to pay for it or how about redirecting foreign aid to pay for it? I just don't understand the thinking.

[virgil]

What part of the constitution are you referring to?

[wooffer]

Virgil, he is referring to the US Constitution, obvioulsy a document you have never seen and could never understand. In short the enumerated powers of the constitution. The enumerated powers are a list of items found in Article I, section 8 of the US Constitution that set forth the authoritative capacity of the United States Congress. In short, Congress may exercise the powers that the Constitution grants it, subject to explicit restrictions in the Bill of Rights and other protections in the Constitutional text. The 10th Amendment states that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

In terms you can understand, if the constitution doesn't say you can do it, then YOU CAN'T DO IT! Got it??

The constitution was written just for things like Obama care.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Virgil, he is referring to the US Constitution, obvioulsy a document you have never seen and could never understand. In short the enumerated powers of the constitution. The enumerated powers are a list of items found in Article I, section 8 of the US Constitution that set forth the authoritative capacity of the United States Congress. In short, Congress may exercise the powers that the Constitution grants it, subject to explicit restrictions in the Bill of Rights and other protections in the Constitutional text. The 10th Amendment states that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

In terms you can understand, if the constitution doesn't say you can do it, then YOU CAN'T DO IT! Got it??

The constitution was written just for things like Obama care.

Come on Woofer. the Constitution is a "living" document and has to "change" with the changing times. How are they ever going to elevate the poor down trodden to the level of Buffet and the 1%? Everyone should be able to be rich and totally provided for. How it is paid for and sustained should not even be an argument. You guys are just so cold hearted. :-)

Edited April 10, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[wooffer]

Yeh you got me cold, I guess I am just one of the last fools who stills works for a living and teaches his kids that they have to earn what they want otherwise it will never truly be theres.

Of course if Virgil wants to treat us to a steak dinner and a nice round of beers with the food stamps he gets from our taxes I might break my rules for him..........just kidding.

[noodle one]

I find half of this argument really odd. Some argue to forcibly take my money away from me and give it to someone else. How is that good for me? Remember over 75% of my money already goes to taxes in one form or another; how much is my fair share? Aren't you guys ever satisfied? Why don't ya argue to tax imports from other countries to pay for it or how about redirecting foreign aid to pay for it? I just don't understand the thinking.

75% WOW , You must be loaded., if you can live the good life on only 25% of your income. If I had your income I would be happy to pay that much just have your income. WOW!!! 75% in taxs or maybe you live in a dream world,that must be it ,because nobody pays that much. Maybe you are doing that funny math.

[fasteddie]

For healthcare - occupy a job

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Noodle. I think he is looking at the entire tax burden.

I have never done it but I wonder what the actual number is? I can see I pay a quite a few on here......How many of you guys get hit with #21 and 127?

Here is a list of possibles. I sure there are even more local ones.

1. Accounts Receivable Tax

2. Accounting and Tax Preparation (cost to taxpayers $300 billion)

3. Accumulated Earnings Tax

4. Accumulation Distribution of Trusts

5. Activity Fee (Dumping Permit Fee)

6 . Air Tax (PA coin-operated vacuums)

7. Aircraft Jet Fuel Tax

8. Aircraft Excise Tax

9 . Alcohol Fuels Tax

10. Alcoholic Beverage Tax

11. Alternative Minimum Tax – Amt

12. Ambulance Services (Air Ambulance Services, SD)

13. Ammunition Tax

14. Amusement Tax (MA, VA, MD)

15. Animal Slaughter Tax (WI, others, Per Animal)

16. Annual Custodial Fees (Ira Accounts)

17. Ballast Water Management Fee (Marine Invasive Species)

18. Biodiesel Fuel Tax

19. Blueberry Tax (Maine)

20. Bribe Taxes (Pay If You Dare)

21. Brothel licensing fees

22. Building Permit Tax

23. Capital Gains Tax

24. California Interstate User Diesel Fuel Tax

25. California Redemption Value (Can and Bottle Tax)

26. CDL License Tax

27. Charter Boat Captain License

28. Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Fee

29. Cigarette Tax

30. Cigarette Tax Stamp (Acts) (Distributors)

31. Compressed Natural Gas Tax

32. Commercial Activity Tax (OH – for Service Providers)

33. Corporate Income Tax

34. Court Fines (Indirect Taxes)

35. County Property Tax

36. Disposable Diapers Tax (Wisconsin)

37. Disposal Fee (Any Landfill Dumping)

38. Dog License Tax

39. Duck Hunting Tax Stamp (PA, others)

40. Electronic Waste Recycling Fee (E-Waste)

41. Emergency Telephone User Surcharge

42. Environmental Fee (CA – HazMat Fees)

43. Estate Tax (Death Tax, to be reinstated)

44. Excise Taxes

45. Facility Fee (CA – HazMat Fees)

46. FDIC tax (insurance premium on bank deposits)

47. Federal Income Tax

48. Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)

49. Fiduciary Income Tax (Estates and Trusts)

50. Fishing License Tax

51. Flush Tax (MD Tax For Producing Wastewater)

52. Food License Tax

53. Fountain Soda Drink Tax (Chicago – 9%)

54. Franchise Tax

55. Fresh Fruit (CA, if Purchased From A Vending Machine)

56. Fuel Gross Receipts Tax (Retail/Distributor)

57. Fuel Permit Tax

58. Fur Clothing Tax (MN)

59. Garbage Tax

60. Gasoline Tax (475 Cents Per Gallon)

61. Generation-Skipping Transfer Tax

62. Generator Fee (Recycled Waste Fee)

63. Gift Tax

64. Gross Receipts Tax

65. Habitat Stamp (Hunting/Fishing in some states)

66. Hamburger Tax

67. Hazardous Substances Fees: Generator, Facility, Disposal

68. Highway Access Fee

69. Household Employment Taxes

70. Hunting License Tax

71. Illegal Drug Possession (No Carolina)

72. Individual Income Tax

73. Inheritance Tax

74. Insect Control Hazardous Materials License

75. Insurance Premium Tax

76. Intangible Tax (Leases Of Govt. Owned Real Property)

77. Integrated Waste Management Fee

78. Interstate User Diesel Fuel Tax

79. Inventory Tax

80. IRA Rollover Tax (a transfer of IRA money)

81. IRA Early Withdrawal Tax

82. IRS Interest Charges

83. IRS Penalties (Tax On Top Of Tax)

84. Jock Tax (income earned by athletes in some states)

85. Kerosene, Distillate, & Stove Oil Taxes

86. Kiddie Tax (Child’s Earned Interest Form 8615)

87. Land Gains and Real Estate Withholding

88. Lead Poisoning Prevention Fee (Occupational)

89. Lease Severance Tax

90. Library Tax

91. Liquid Natural Gas Tax

92. Liquid Petroleum Gas Tax

93. Liquor Tax

94. Litigation Tax (TN Imposes Varies With the Offense)

95. LLC/PLLC Corporate Registration Tax

96. Local Income Tax

97. Lodging Taxes

98. Lump-Sum Distributions

99. Luxury Taxes

100. Make-Up Tax (Ohio, applying in a salon is taxable)

101. Marriage License Tax

102. Meal Tax

103. Medicare Tax

104. Mello-Roos Taxes (Special Taxes and Assessments)

105. Migratory Waterfowl Stamp (addition to hunting license)

106. Minnow Dealers License (Retail – For One Shop)

107. Minnow Dealers License (Distributor – For One+ Shops)

108. Mobile Home Ad Valorem Taxes

109. Motor Fuel Tax (For Suppliers)

110. Motor Vehicle Tax

111. Music and Dramatic Performing Rights Tax

112. Nudity Tax (Utah)

113. Nursery Registration (Buying and selling plants)

114. Occupancy Inspection Fees

115. Occupation Taxes and Fees (Various Professional Fees)

116. Oil and Gas Assessment Tax

117. Oil Spill Response, Prevention, and Administration Fee

118. Parking Space Taxes

119. Pass-Through Withholding

120. Pay-Phone Calls Tax (Indiana)

121. Percolation Test Fee

122. Personal Property Tax

123. Personal Holding Company (undistributed earnings)

124. Pest Control License

125. Petroleum Business Tax

126. Playing Card Tax (Al)

127. Pole Tax (TX – A $5 Cover Charge On Strip Clubs)

128. Profit from Illegal Drug Dealing

129. Property Tax

130. Property Transfer Tax (DE, ownership transfer between parties)

131. Prostitution Tax (NV – Prostitute Work Permits)

132. Poultry Registered Premises License (Sales License)

133. Rain Water Tax (Runoff after a Storm)

134. Rat Control Fee (CA)

135. Real Estate Tax

136. Recreational Vehicle Tax

137. Refrigerator and Freezer Recycling Fees

138. Regional Transit Taxing Authority (Trains)

139. Road Usage Tax

140. Room Tax (Hotel Rooms)

141. Sales Tax (State)

142. Sales Tax (City)

143. Sales And Use Tax (Sellers Permit)

144. School Tax

145. Service Charge Tax

146. Self Employment Tax

147. Septic And Drain Field Inspection Fees

148. Sex Sales Tax (UT, when nude people perform services)

149. Sewer & Water Tax

150. Social Security Tax

151. Sparkler and Novelties Tax (WV Sellers of Sparklers, etc)

152. Special Assessment Tax (Not Ad Valorem)

153. State Documentary Stamp Tax on Notes (FL RE Tax)

154. State Franchise Tax

155. State Income Tax

156. State Park Fees

157. State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)

158. Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) Fuel Tax

159. Stud Fees (Kentucky’s Thoroughbred Sex Tax)

160. Tangible Personal Property Tax

161. Tattoo Tax (AR Tax On Tattoos)

162. Telephone 911 Service Tax (some states)

163. Telephone Federal Excise Tax

164. Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax

165. Telephone Federal Surcharge Taxes

166. Telephone State Surcharge Taxes

167. Telephone Local Surcharge Taxes

168. Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax

169. Telephone Recurring Charges Tax

170. Telephone Universal Access Tax

171. Telephone Non-Recurring Charges Tax

172. Telephone State Usage Charge Tax

173. Telephone Local Usage Charge Tax

174. Tire Recycling Fee

175. Tobacco Tax (Cigar, Pipe, Consumer Tax)

176. Tobacco Tax (Cigar, Pipe, Dealer Tax)

177. Toll Road Taxes

178. Toll Bridge Taxes

179. Toll Tunnel Taxes

180. Tourism or Concession License Fee

181. Traffic Fines (Indirect Taxation)

182. Transportable Treatment Unit Fee (Small Facility)

183. Trailer Registration Tax

184. Trout Stamp (Addendum To Fish License)

185. Use Taxes (On Out-Of-State Purchases)

186. Utility Taxes

187. Unemployment Tax

188. Underground Storage Tank Maintenance Fee

189. Underpayment of Estimated Tax (Form 2210)

190. Unreported Tip Income (Social Security and Medicare Tax)

191. Vehicle License

192. Vehicle Recovery Tax (CO, to find stolen cars)

193. Vehicle Registration Tax

194. Vehicle Sales Tax

195. Wagering Tax (Tax on Gambling Winnings)

196. Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO) Fuel Tax

197. Water Rights Fee

198. Watercraft Registration Tax

199. Waterfowl Stamp Tax

200. Well Permit Tax

201. Wiring Inspection Fees

202. Workers Compensation Tax

[Grouse]

I'll be glad when the Supreme Court finally rules on Obamacare. That will put an end to all of this bickering once and for all.

Personally, I believe the court will bitch slap Obamacare so hard Ted Kennedy will feel it in his grave.

[noodle one]

Culvercreek hunt club,

I know what he was trying to say, but how he got there he had to be useing funny math.

[Early]

You may be right Grouse...but such a ruling will be purely political. The Court has lost all interest in doing what is right. (Kinda like all you other Obama haters!)

[wooffer]

I like Obama, he has created more gunowners and conservatives than anyone else in the history of this nation. Now that is change I can believe in.

[nyantler]

You may be right Grouse...but such a ruling will be purely political. The Court has lost all interest in doing what is right. (Kinda like all you other Obama haters!)

It has to be political.. no way could it be because the individual mandate is unconstitutional. You liberal types kill me... if things go your way it's fair if not somebody automatically cheated...lol... Yes! I am absolutely an Obama hater. There may be some things in the healthcare bill that are good... but forcing Americans to buy health insurance or risk a penalty is not one of them.

[adirondackbushwhack]

75% WOW , You must be loaded., if you can live the good life on only 25% of your income. If I had your income I would be happy to pay that much just have your income. WOW!!! 75% in taxs or maybe you live in a dream world,that must be it ,because nobody pays that much. Maybe you are doing that funny math.

See if ya can put your noodle to work on this and see how much you're paying when you're done. I see that other fella put a whole list of taxes up there but he doesn't nearly have them all and lets see if I can break SOME of it down so it's not so fuzzy for ya and you'll get an idea of what WE ALL pay. Thats right, even you are paying that much if you're a middle class American, you've just been fooled into believing differently.

Start with your payroll taxes, state fed. fica all of it. Now from what is left subtract your property taxes, even if you rent they are included in your rent. Next how about sales tax 8%? then of course there is the gas tax which is much higher than 8%. Of course you have to heat your house and that fuel is taxed. electric taxed, phone taxed, water taxed unless you supply your own but you were taxed when you put the sysem in. Sewer taxed. roads, tolls which are actually a tax, anytime the government takes your money its a tax they just don't like calling it that all of the time so they use words like tolls or fees because they sound so much nicer than tax. Then there is your car. Lic, and reg tax and then there is the insurance which is taxed and of course the insurance company has to pay taxes and so they calculate those taxes into your bill because as we all SHOULD know big companies don't pay taxes they mearly collect them by includeing them in the price for their goods and services. Oh and don't forget whenever you change the tires on your car the state taxes you for the old tires that are taken off of your car. Yes the same ones they taxed you on when you bought them. Of course you eat and the farmers, truckers and grocers all pay taxes that are.....yep you guessed it calculated into the price that YOU pay, again they don't pay them they mearly collect them. Same with your house and everything in it all the way down to the roll of t-paper. All those companies involved with making shipping or handleing ANYTHING pay taxes and those taxes are passed on to YOU. Getting the idea yet? Hunting lic. fees are actually a tax. Any fee you pay to any branch of the government is tax. Got it? Now then lets look at health care. Here in NY there is a 1/3 tax on medical proceedures. so if a cat scan costs 300 100 is tax. And you were wondering why health care was so expensive. But wait the docs pay taxes and so they too calculate those taxes into your bill because just like the rest they don't pay them they collect them. Go to McDonalds, pay their taxes, go to wal-mart pay their taxes, sabe? You pay them all. Now see if you can add ALL of the taxes you pay directly and indirectly and come up with a number less than 75% of your money if you are a middle class American. And don't forget I havent gotten to all of the taxes YOU pay so keep going with the fuzzy math and figure what ya really do pay.