THE GREAT HEALTH CARE DEBATE..

[nyantler]

Again, stupid assumptions and accusations.

Again the type of response we get from you when you find yourself with your foot in your mouth... I believe you meant "free" when you made the post seeing how you used the word free... accusing you of being for government run health care based on your defense of it would not be a stupid assumption either. Or were you just "for it" before you were "against it"...lol

[erussell]

Had a friend whos father lives in Canada, He had a heart attack in the States and went back to Canada for his free Government health care. He almost died because he was on an 8 month waiting list for heart surgerie. Doesnt sound like a good Idea to me.

[virgil]

the word 'free' should have been in quotes. that's all. other than that, i stand by the statement. your inability to distinguish the difference between 'government funded' and 'government run' is not my problem.

[Grouse]

Make no mistake, if the government funds something, it runs it.

[sits in trees]

One quick word on social security/medicare. If any of you know any old folks, then you know theres so much waste in that system it aint even funny. My 78 year old mother in law who happens to be in pretty good health sees a foot Dr, a blood Dr, a bone Dr, a Chiropractor, and about 2 or 3 others that i dont even know what they are called doctors,and also her GP. And she see's them all every month with a doctors appointments or 2 every single week? She is sent for countle$ tests every year that show nothing, she takes about 2 dozen pill$ a day, and in the area of Fla where she lives they build and build more medical facilties???

And almost everyone over the age of 65 in Fla does the same thing.

So now when one party either Republicons or Democraps tries to do something about waste in Medicare the other side go's friggin beserk with OHHHH they are rationing ole folks or they wanna pull the plug on grandma? and absoultly nothing ever happens to trim the costs and WASTE in medicare which costs use billion$ a year..

I give up.

[hunter]

I have to ask is there anyone who doesn't know Obama is a liar? It has been documented ad nauseam, transparency, no lobbyists, plus bribes for votes etc. But let's review a few pertaining to his health care law: No you can't keep yor doctor. Yes there will be death panels( you can call them whatever you want ), No you won't be getting his level of health care, Is it a tax or a fine ( the penalty for not having insurance ). BTW does anyone realize how little the law spells out and how much is left to the Sec of Health and appointed panels? I have no love for the medical profession but does anyone believe a president who goes on TV and claims doctors are removing tonsils and amputating feet to make money? This law with Obama's crooked financing counts the same half billion twice but really takes a half billion away from medicare.

Sadly, many things look good on paper but don't deliver in reality like socialism. Every time it has been tried it has developed into a dictatorship and the ruling class get good living quarters and health care while the rest of the population suffers disgusting conditions. Even in Canada and England where free health care is used as an example you have to wait so long for surgery that a stage one cancer can develop into stage two or three by the time you're allowed to have it. Many Canadians who can afford it come here and pay cash for their medical needs so they can get them while still being effective. Now ad to this Obama's open mike moment where he was recorded telling the president of Russia he can be more flexible on removing missle defense systems from Europe after his election. OK Russia is our enemy, they have done more to help Iran develop nuclear weapons than anyone else. So why is the leader of the free world making promises he knows we don't want him to keep? BTW why would a missle defense system bother anyone who isn't planning to launch a missle? Can't the smartest man in the world figure that out? It's like walking up to a cop and asking him to take off his bullet proof vest. I don't plan on shooting you but that vest is really pissing me off. Huh?

[sits in trees]

The biggest problem now is simply the number of people working for the government. They are a voting block that can start to sway elections.

This is scary, plus all over 65 on social security, and better than 1/2 of the countries healthcare is being paid for by someone else. and thats not to mention people who choose not to have insurance are being paid for by us in our health insurance premiums...My family coverage went up to 13 thousand at the beginning of the year?

[Early]

sits in trees makes a very good point: Overall health care costs in America have skyrocketed as so many of our elderly citizens have turned "doctoring" into the new national pastime! Thinking, "It's covered by my insurance...therefore I should do it...or take it", they spend far more time at the doc's office or the pharmacy than is really needed. This obviously puts a drain on health care resources...costs way more than it should...and ultimately deprives others of care. Doctors...health care providers of all sorts...are busy "writing business" and treating/prescribing procedures/drugs that are not needed. As you grow older, do not allow them to "give you the business!"

[virgil]

You guys do make a good point- there is a lot of waste. I work in healthcare and I'd be the first to admit it. The other side of the 'waste' issue is that our country is so litigious that doctors overprescribe tests and meds just to minimize their exposure to lawsuits- they're in a no-win situation. But, if you look into 'obamacare', you'll see that the industry is going to be re-focused on what they're calling 'pay for performance', which requires hospitals and clinicians to decrease waste and improve performance in order to be fully reimbursed for services. The idea is that costs will be lowered due to a combination of reducing reimbursement and improving efficiency and quality. It puts a lot of pressure on hospitals.

[hunter]

I remember an interview with Hillary when health care was discussed. The issue of forcing insurance companies to pay for people at Emergency Rooms was mentioned and a sly grin came over her face and she said she was in the Senate for that and was proud of it. The interviewer then mentioned that the insurance companies were allowed to raise their fees by about $1oo a month and the grin just got bigger. This was the start of rediculous costs and it wasn't greedy insurance companies it was big brother. If they are so damned worried about charity why don't they call it that and set up a seperate dept to administer it like a welfare program that it is. No, they piggy back it on medicare or sneak the cost into all the honest people trying to take care of their families insurance premiums. Then they ask why more people don't buy health insurance. Really?

Maybe with all the billions about to be wasted on this health care scam why not open more medical schools and require that free clinics be open to train the new doctors and require the patients to prove they are here legally and can't afford to pay for it. The illegals should be treated for serious issues and deported with their families. BTW sending someone home is not punishment it is fair and ethical.

I would bet most of you don't know what's in this bill. Sales tax on real estate transactions at a time when we are all going to take a loss on sales. Taking over the student loan business, what the hell does that have to do with health care? I don't know all the details either but it looks a lot more like a totalitarian power grab the anything else.

[NFA-ADK]

OK I used all my likes up for the day! I just can not accept the gov envolment with health care. Make them (all gov.) use the same health care we use. A gov. position was suppose to be a position of repect and was typically a low paying job that ended when you finished you term. Now you get full dental, medical and get paid for life at a impressive salary. Remove the high salary, remove the full coverage, remove the lifetime benifits... This is what happens when officials are allowed to give themselves a raise and better benifits, it spirals out of control, just like health care would. WHY would I expect anything differant from the Gov. with health care, they ruined my SS, now you want me to let them take care of me, NO THANKS.

If you are illegal you will be sent back to your country reguardless of your health condition or any condition. This by itself would save billions. Stop the frivolous law suits in health care and don't hold the doctor responisble for your poor health, they are trying to help. If you don't like his oppinion get a 2nd or 3rd...

PS: Who needs health care the zombie apocolypse is coming!!! Sorry just had to lighten up the subject...

Scary stuff.

[adirondackbushwhack]

You guys do make a good point- there is a lot of waste. I work in healthcare and I'd be the first to admit it. The other side of the 'waste' issue is that our country is so litigious that doctors overprescribe tests and meds just to minimize their exposure to lawsuits- they're in a no-win situation. But, if you look into 'obamacare', you'll see that the industry is going to be re-focused on what they're calling 'pay for performance', which requires hospitals and clinicians to decrease waste and improve performance in order to be fully reimbursed for services. The idea is that costs will be lowered due to a combination of reducing reimbursement and improving efficiency and quality. It puts a lot of pressure on hospitals.

Who decides what is waste and what is performance? I'm damn sure I don't want some bureaucrat telling my doctor how to treat me. I go to the doctor because he knows what he's doing; if some government type is going to tell him what to do I don't need the doctor anymore I can just go to the county office building and have the secretary treat me. Pay for performance hey? More like kick them out of the hospital faster to save money. Don't be so darn gullible.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Don't worry about 'the Obamacare side of the audience'- I have a feeling that they don't need things explained to them the way you seem to. Doctors and hospitals get paid directly by the third party payor- the patient receives an EOB(explanation of benefits) in the mail, not a bill.

Where does the third party payor get the money to pay the bill for ya?

[virgil]

Why don't you actually learn about it before you trash it and accuse anyone of being gullible. I didn't accuse you of being ignorant- so don't accuse me of being gullible. I'm actually quite familiar with it.

'Waste' is defined according to medical protocols for specific diagnoses. Actually, patient surveys play a huge role in determining 'quality' under the new system. And as far as the 'kick 'em out of the hospital to save money' statement- i know this is a popular one from people who are unhappy with the healthcare industry- but, premature discharges from hospitals leads to re-admissions; and re-admissions have a drastic negative impact on hospital reimbursement. It's a popular rant, but not really accurate.

[virgil]

either from insurance premiums or the medicare/medicaid program.

[adirondackbushwhack]

either from insurance premiums or the medicare/medicaid program.

And who pays the insurance premiums? You know that medicare/mdicade is being cut right?

[virgil]

the policy holder makes the payment. what is your point?

[adirondackbushwhack]

Why don't you actually learn about it before you trash it and accuse anyone of being gullible. I didn't accuse you of being ignorant- so don't accuse me of being gullible. I'm actually quite familiar with it.

'Waste' is defined according to medical protocols for specific diagnoses. Actually, patient surveys play a huge role in determining 'quality' under the new system. And as far as the 'kick 'em out of the hospital to save money' statement- i know this is a popular one from people who are unhappy with the healthcare industry- but, premature discharges from hospitals leads to re-admissions; and re-admissions have a drastic negative impact on hospital reimbursement. It's a popular rant, but not really accurate.

Well now I appoligize for calling you gullible. I'll tell ya. I'm quite happy with my health care and insurance. I have one of those cadillac plans the government is mad about and only want to reserve for themselves. I don't have a problem being kept in the hospital as long as my doctor deems necciassary. Now my insurance isn't cheap and because of Obama care it has gone up quite a bit. You see since the first parts of Obama care went into effect such as kids staying on their parents policies until 26 or so it has meant more people being insured and that means they need more money to pay for them SO they raised rates. Isn't that just the opposite of what Obama care was supposed to do? Wasn't it supposed to lower the costs? Oh well just ignore that little glitch I'm sure he's right about the rest of his boasts about it.

So lets see if I understand this correctly? Waste is determined by medical protocals for specific diagnosis right? Who determines those protocals under Obama care?

Patient surveys? So other patients and not doctors will play a roll in determining the quality of my health care? How about this for an idea. If your doctor sucks get a new one and if he is good keep him. I don't want other patients determining anything for me Sabe?

[adirondackbushwhack]

the policy holder makes the payment. what is your point?

Well under Obama care the policy holder only has to pay like $1500.00 a year right?

[virgil]

You misunderstood. After you're discharged from the hospital, you receive a survey in the mail that asks you to answer questions and rate your care. The scores are compared with other hospitals(hospitals that perform best receive full reimbursement, hospitals that underperform are paid less)- it's intended to measure the patient's perception of the care he/she received. Think of it as a customer satisfaction survey.

As far as who determines medical protocols- the AMA and various medical specialty boards will continue to do that.

[adirondackbushwhack]

You misunderstood. After you're discharged from the hospital, you receive a survey in the mail that asks you to answer questions and rate your care. The scores are compared with other hospitals(hospitals that perform best receive full reimbursement, hospitals that underperform are paid less)- it's intended to measure the patient's perception of the care he/she received. Think of it as a customer satisfaction survey.

As far as who determines medical protocols- the AMA and various medical specialty boards will continue to do that.

So wait what if i die while in the hospital? How is that rated in the customer satisfaction survey? It seems to me that if I don't like a hospital I don't go there; this thing about rateing hospitals by patient surveys is the wrong way to do things. I'd be happier if they just published survival rates for a hospital rather than how happy people felt when they died. Heck I don't care what the hospitals around here rate I know if I ever have a really life threatening illness that I am not going to any of these local places as there are much better hospitals to choose from as far as survival rates go. And currently I can do just that.

I don't believe for a second that doctors with patient care as their main concern will make those determinations. If that were the case Obama care wouldn't need to address it. All they would have to say is that the doctors choose. I'm thinking it will go the same way as midicare is now going with boards being set up to determinbe who gets what. Of course there is the real core of our disagreement. You believe that the government will take care of you and has nothing but your best interest at heart and will give you the best care no matter what isn't that so? And I don't blieve that for a second, I choose to look at their track record and have no choice but to believe that countless American people will be denied health care while costs skyrocket. Under Obama care we will all lose excepting maybe a few poor soles or lazy individuals who might see a moderate increase in health care so long as they don't have a major illness.

[virgil]

You believe that the government will take care of you and has nothing but your best interest at heart and will give you the best care no matter what isn't that so? And I don't blieve that for a second, I choose to look at their track record and have no choice but to believe that countless American people will be denied health care while costs skyrocket. Under Obama care we will all lose excepting maybe a few poor soles or lazy individuals who might see a moderate increase in health care so long as they don't have a major illness.

No, i never said that. What you're forgetting is that 'obamacare' does not imply that there will be only one option for coverage. it just assures that everyone will have coverage. private health insurance is not being eliminated. if you currently have coverage, noone is going to take it away.

[Dave]

You believe that the government will take care of you and has nothing but your best interest at heart and will give you the best care no matter what isn't that so? And I don't blieve that for a second, I choose to look at their track record and have no choice but to believe that countless American people will be denied health care while costs skyrocket. Under Obama care we will all lose excepting maybe a few poor soles or lazy individuals who might see a moderate increase in health care so long as they don't have a major illness.

No, i never said that. What you're forgetting is that 'obamacare' does not imply that there will be only one option for coverage. it just assures that everyone will have coverage. private health insurance is not being eliminated. if you currently have coverage, noone is going to take it away.

The effects of Obama care are allready here." The statement that if you currently have coverage onone will take it away"That is totally false statement!!!!!!

The company that I retired from gives it's retirees health coverage. But only to a certain extent it's not free the retires have to pay for their coverage. It's part company and part paid my retirees. The company pays x amount and that amount is frozen as insurance goes up every year the company pays none of the increase that increase is paid by the retirees. This is not a small company who can't affort to pay for the insurance they have 140000 employees.

I just got a news letter from the company that affective jan 2013 anyone under 50 will have to pay for their health insurance in full no company matching funds, when they retire. So I would say their insurance is taken away from them.. Next will be full time employees, why not the fine is cheaper than paying health insurance for it's employees.

[virgil]

It sounds like your former employer made a cost cutting decision. How is that the government's fault and not the company's?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have to dig to see if this made the cut and was included but it was the one thing the Unions flipped over in the plan. Any private plan that had better coverage than the outlined one would be taxed on the difference. (Unions employees exempt after their screaming). SO if the COmpany you worked for had really great benefits...you get taxed on the delta.

DOes anyone know if this made the cut and was included?