Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Doewhacker]

If you read the exerpt that John posted the goals were both to increase satisfaction and save 1.5 year olds. Satisfaction increase was hit and miss and buck take has dropped 30% which will further push satisfaction down. The program is a fine voluntary program, this according to the DEC themselves.

[Fairgame]

Besides this forum no one every asked me how satisfied I was with the program.  Where do they get it.  from the few hundred surveys they sent out to some hunters in the area. 

The buck take dropping is what these areas needed for the program even having a chance to work.  Not shooting a percentage of deer is the only way you would see any older deer.

[wztirem]

You get 15 AR proponents in a room and you get 20 opinions!

[burmjohn]

If you read the exerpt that John posted the goals were both to increase satisfaction and save 1.5 year olds. Satisfaction increase was hit and miss and buck take has dropped 30% which will further push satisfaction down. The program is a fine voluntary program, this according to the DEC themselves.

The problem is voluntary programs will not work unless you have your own herd on god knows how many acres.  I choose to practice some type of AR and not shoot all the 1.5's and have my neighbor a way blast away with the brown its down mentality.  At least with this minor AR these deer have a fighting chance to make it.

[Larry]

so what your saying is you want to be able tell your neighbor how to hunt on his land. if you don't like the way he hunts. if you can't make him hunt your way you want the state to change the rules to fit the way you hunt. Oh one more thing there are lots of big deer out there you just have to work at it I had to work for the 8 P & Y's I have thats why they call it hunting and not shooting spend less time watching hunting shows and more time in the woods!

[noodle one]

I am strictly a trophy hunter and the club I belong to feels  same way, we protect our herd closely. If someone kills a deer that is not up to our standards, that person is put out of the club. All deer must have ears that are (3) three ins. or better. So if you come on our club grounds, you better watch and make sure you follow our standards.

[Doc]

;D  I could do that!!!!

[Lawdwaz]

I've been a life member for years

[steve863]

I've got to tell you that I spend about as much time out there hunting and scouting and jawboning with other hunters as anyone I know, and it beats me how you have been able to canvass hunters in two WMUs, and perform deer surveys over that many square miles such that you can tell us the hunter attitudes and the deer herd conditions across that much area. It's an enviable feat, and I really must admire your ability to do what all of the DEC has  not.  Personally, I don't even try to speak for the hunters of even a small part of our one WMU and whenever I speak of deer conditions, I always make sure that everyone understands that I am only speaking of that acreage that I personally hunt which is not a significant amount of square miles within our WMU. There's no way that I would speak for the hunters or herd conditions of two WMUs and I'm surprised that you think you are able to. Maybe those two areas that you are talking about are a lot smaller than they look on the map  .

Doc

I for one know a couple of guys who own 30 acres of land in one of the AR units where doe permits are next to impossible to get.  They don't have enough land to get a landowners doe permit, so what have they decided to do??  They are now hunting on another relatives land in another county without AR's and where chances of getting a doe permit are better, that's what!!  They now own land that they don't even want to hunt on!  Absolutely NO way is the support for AR's as great as Fairgame is making it out to be.  I would not be surprised in the least if AR's are scrapped from those units in the next few years.  Absolutely NO way will it swing that one can't even get a doe permit in a couple of these units and then not be allowed to shoot a buck unless it has 3 points on a side.  I don't want to hear the excuse that these hunters can still shoot a doe with a bow or muzzleloader if they wanted to either.  The majority of hunting licenses sold are for the regular gun season.  One does not need to invest in more equipment and become proficient with it just so they could have a chance at a deer.  Again, this won't swing for very long.  AR's are a pipe dream that will come to a screeching end sooner than their proponents realize!

[Doewhacker]

The problem is voluntary programs will not work unless you have your own herd on god knows how many acres.  I choose to practice some type of AR and not shoot all the 1.5's and have my neighbor a way blast away with the brown its down mentality.  At least with this minor AR these deer have a fighting chance to make it.

The reasons they chose your area are,  high hunting pressure, poor minerals in the ground which limit antler growth. AR did nothing to address those issues and now alot of pressure is on the 2.5 year olds. 2.5 is a long way from 4.5-7.5 mature buck. I understand why you guys like AR but it doesn't really hit the mark and do what it is intended to do especially when DEC is more concerned with total deer take and a healthy herd not rack size. DEC also notes that it doesn't work well due to the fact that the state is so large it is impossible to control each area, which is why they recomend it as a voluntary program. Meaning we can manage our own land better than they can, we see whats there and know the age's of deer, obviously rack size doesn't indicate age.

[Uncle Nicky]

I'm a PA resident. Most of us hated AR when it was first implemented, but to be honest, there are a lot more bigger bucks roaming the woods these days.

I must be getting older, but I'm not all that excited about killing big bucks these days. I hate dragging a big deer out of the woods, and usually the meat is pretty rank.

[Doc]

The reduction of yearling bucks harvested is by 65% is a good thing.(wasn't that the goal?) It's stating that more bucks are surviving to an older age.  And the growth of only 14% on 2 1/2 or older bucks harvested is saying that these animals are harder to hunt cause they are getting older.  The opportunity is there to harvest a nice buck if a hunter puts in his time and luck is on their side.

So I guess the object is to make the harvesting of bucks as difficult as possible. Cut down on harvesting yearlings, while harvesting the older deer remains a rarity too. In short, the system is designed to cut the buck harvest. Eventually, you can frustrate a bunch more hunters right out  of the season and eliminate even more deer being taken. I suppose that's a plan ....... of sorts ;D .

I wonder if anyone worries about the younger hunters with little or no experience, or the older ones who can't hunt quite as vigorously as they once could, or disabled hunters, or the guy who only can get out there a couple days a year because of trying to earn a living. I listen to all these AR proponents talk of 'putting in their time', and being forced to hunt deer of someone else's choosing, and wonder if these people ever think about anyone but themselves and their own personal circumstances.

And then there is the penalty for making a point-counting mistake which ranges from $200 - $2000 with up to one year in jail and possible revocation of your hunting license. Pretty darn steep for simply miscounting points. Let's all rush out and push through another law that makes a criminal out of a simple hunting mistake.

[burmjohn]

so what your saying is you want to be able tell your neighbor how to hunt on his land. if you don't like the way he hunts. if you can't make him hunt your way you want the state to change the rules to fit the way you hunt.

No, What I am saying is all the 1.5's are being hosed before they have a chance to grow.  Having AR gave them at least that chance to become a 2.5 or more.  I'm in WMU 3, its not big buck county, and there is a good amount of pressure all around.  Unfortunately I don't hunt up where you do, where this is not an issue.

[Fairgame]

What about the guy who owns property in these areas and wants to shoot a decent buck but doesnt have the opportunity cause it isnt there cause these animals dont have a chance to grow. That hunter could get fustrated too and not want to hunt anymore. There is more than one way to look at it.

Like steve863 said that he has friends that left the AR zones, I have friends that left a non AR zone to hunt by us.

Everyone probably gets a little fustrated when they dont get anything throughout the season, but thats hunting.  Besides a couple of the AR zone that need preference points to get a doe permit there are other areas that dont have AR's that need preference points too.  I can only speak from what I see where I hunt and I dont see a problem filling a buck tag during archery or rifle or muzzleloader with a legal buck that is a five or six point. Plenty of legal small bucks around. a lot more than before. 

[steve863]

I can only speak from what I see where I hunt and I dont see a problem filling a buck tag during archery or rifle or muzzleloader with a legal buck that is a five or six point. Plenty of legal small bucks around. a lot more than before.

I don't know for sure if what you say here is true or not, but I WILL take your word for it.  So if there are plenty of these small legal bucks around, do you think everyone in these AR zones will be letting them pass in order to let them grow a bit more and become true trophies??  NO way, most especially in the units where doe permits are scarce.  They will be gunning them down just the same as spikes and forkhorns are gunned down in the zones without AR's.  End result??  You STILL will never have those monster bucks you guys dream that AR's will bring you.  All you guys might have now is bragging rights that you killed a small 6 or 8 pointer in comparison to other guys who kill the spikes and forkhorns in the zones without AR's.  Just as I've seen hunters do many a time over the years.  Some guys think they have bragging rights when they shoot a piddly 7 pointer in comparison to his buddies piddly 5 pointer.  It all makes very little sense to me, that's for darn sure!

[Fairgame]

I never put anyone down for shooting anything legal. Me shooting an eight and them shooting a five doesnt make me better than them.  As for shooting monsters or mature deer there are some out there but not many.  I never said we are shooting monsters but we are shooting 2 1/2 yearolds and 3 1/2 year olds.  A huge improvement from before.  I'm not dreaming of shooting a 160 inch deer cause I have to be realistic with what my area is holding but I do dream of seeing a rack in the woods when before believe it or not it was non existant.  People that dont hunt these areas dont realize how it really was, and what a change is has been till today.

[Doc]

What about the guy who owns property in these areas and wants to shoot a decent buck but doesnt have the opportunity cause it isnt there cause these animals dont have a chance to grow. That hunter could get fustrated too and not want to hunt anymore. There is more than one way to look at it.

Well that never seemed to happen in the past (pre AR) when hunter population was higher than it is today (at it's peak) .

However, I will agree that the TV set and the hunting video industry and now the AR proponents have been focusing on fixating hunters on expectations and downright demands they are complete failures if they don't collect some kind of "book-buck".  Today it's quite easy to flim-flam the hunting public into thinking that what they see on TV is what AR would provide. And the pro-AR crowd is doing its darndest to promote such thinking and expectations. Probably in the long run these kinds of sales pitches may very well bring on the result you are talking about, with or without the adoption of AR.

[moosemike]

I'm a PA resident. Most of us hated AR when it was first implemented, but to be honest, there are a lot more bigger bucks roaming the woods these days.

I must be getting older, but I'm not all that excited about killing big bucks these days. I hate dragging a big deer out of the woods, and usually the meat is pretty rank.

Being from PA myself I haven't found that to be the case. I do see more 80-120" B&C class bucks but as far as top end bucks I see less now than ever. My theory is that the  hunter who would gladly take a spike or forkhorn has to pass it up and he is still in the woods to take that 2 1/2 year old 8 point. In doing so that 2 1/2 year old buck is prevented from becoming a 3 1/2 year old buck and that Spike or Forkhorn he passed up is free to breed Doe.

[Doc]

Sounds logical to me.

[steve863]

You say you aren't putting anyone down for shooting anything legal, but at the same time want you want the legal buck to be a six point and not a spike.  Why should there be anymore importance on what you want in comparison to the guys who are perfectly happy with that spike?  It IS all about antlers to you guys, and please don't try to tell us that it isn't.  AR's are nothing but an attempt by hunters obsessed with antlers to make it easier for themselves and to have some bragging rights that their buck is a tiny bit bigger than the other guys.  All nonsense if you ask me.  It's like you telling me that your weener is bigger than mine.  In the scheme of things it's all so irrelevant. 

[SteveB]

You say you aren't putting anyone down for shooting anything legal, but at the same time want you want the legal buck to be a six point and not a spike.

And that 6 pt in my area has a nearly 60% chance of being a 1.5 buck - same as the spike.

[steve863]

You say you aren't putting anyone down for shooting anything legal, but at the same time want you want the legal buck to be a six point and not a spike.

And that 6 pt in my area has a nearly 60% chance of being a 1.5 buck - same as the spike.

The guy who shot the 6 pt 1.5 year old buck will surely have the bragging rights, though! 

[Fairgame]

All it is, is that my Definition of hunting is different than yours and the same goes for everyone else that hunts.  Why should I not have the opportunity to shoot what I want and others should.  Its not about needing the meat to survive.  For alot of hunters it is the antlers why shouldnt they have the opportunity to shoot a decent buck in these areas.  Doesnt it seem selfish also on the hunter that wants to shoot brown its down? Like I said earlier there is two ways to look at things.

  I would say that the hunter that is older than I am is set in their ways and dont want to change but I dont think that is the case cause my dad at almost 60 years old is really trying hard to get his first rack buck after all these years of not having the opportunity cause they werent around.  He now refuses to shoot a 5 or 6 point and they are all over. He sees the bucks that we have on the cams and wants to hold out. Like I have also said earlier the people that dont hunt these areas really dont know what it was like before and cant compare to how it is now.

IMO The reason for seeing bigger bucks is not because there are less hunters cause there are still hunters on almost every 20 acre lot.  Its because we were all told by the DEC that a certain size buck was now legal.  There are alot of hunters in these areas. The buck population was getting shot out.

Call me a gorilla for pounding my chest when I shoot a decent buck but that is what excites me.  Especially on my own property.  Thats why I hunt.  My 2 1/2 year old 8 point that measures maybee 100 inches shot at my own place means more to me than shooting a 140 inch deer in another state.

[SteveB]

Just curious - would a 3 1/2 year old 4 pt make you just as proud?

[Doewhacker]

"Call me a gorilla for pounding my chest when I shoot a decent buck but that is what excites me.  Especially on my own property.  Thats why I hunt.  My 2 1/2 year old 8 point that measures maybee 100 inches shot at my own place means more to me than shooting a 140 inch deer in another state."

So then why can't another guy feel the same way about a spike? The big ones aren't there, not because every one is shooting them but instead because the soil won't provide enough minerals to promote "large" growth.  AR's, as DEC has already stated, are a social issue and provide no benefit to the herd.