Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Doc]

the more money one has, the bigger bucks they can shoot. That's a pretty straight correlation.

Im not one necessarily for mandatory AR, but that statement is a crock of you know what. I know of one guy that has multiple 160+ deer on his wall, a few 180+ deer included and more 120+ sets of antlers from bucks hes shot than he knows what to do with. He even had one of the NY records for a couple of years until another guy near him dropped one that broke his record. He owns @ 20 acres and hunts a couple of other small parcels. Hes not rich, not even close. Hes not the only guy I know thats just your average Joe income-wise, that consistently drop big bucks.

I don't think it's really any secret that you can basically buy trophy opportunities today. Also, landowners who can devote time and money to heavy-duty deer management on large parcels of property or large cooperatives of property can create opportunities that are not available to the rest of us. Sure there are always isolated situations where some very rare individuals can find some special circumstances or special talent and do well, but as a general rule, I would say that opportunities can be and are bought by those with enough money.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

the more money one has, the bigger bucks they can shoot. That's a pretty straight correlation.

Im not one necessarily for mandatory AR, but that statement is a crock of you know what. I know of one guy that has multiple 160+ deer on his wall, a few 180+ deer included and more 120+ sets of antlers from bucks hes shot than he knows what to do with. He even had one of the NY records for a couple of years until another guy near him dropped one that broke his record. He owns @ 20 acres and hunts a couple of other small parcels. Hes not rich, not even close. Hes not the only guy I know thats just your average Joe income-wise, that consistently drop big bucks.

I don't think it's really any secret that you can basically buy trophy opportunities today. Also, landowners who can devote time and money to heavy-duty deer management on large parcels of property or large cooperatives of property can create opportunities that are not available to the rest of us. Sure there are always isolated situations where some very rare individuals can find some special circumstances or special talent and do well, but as a general rule, I would say that opportunities can be and are bought by those with enough money.

Doc

Come on Doc, its not isolated situations. How many guys do you know that have shot one or more 120+ deer? I know quite a few and none of them were taken on paid hunts or large tracts that are managed. Only a couple of the guys have more than 200 acres. Do you know how much land you need to really manage deer? They roam around alot lol. The guys that I know that drop big bucks consistently are just guys that do wht they have to in order to put the time into hunting that they need to. Others are just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

[wztirem]

Doc,

Canned hunts are available for those who can afford them. However, just like guys I know who can catch "fish in a barrel", we refer to them as "sharpies" down here on Long Island;there are hunters who are continually successful because they too are "sharpies". I both envy them and applaud their efforts.

[sampotter]

Amen WNYBuckHunter. PATIENCE, PERSISTENCE, and SKILL are a few of the key virtues of the most consistent and successful hunters. Anybody can get lucky once, twice is a fluke, but three times or more means they know what they are doing.

Is there anyone reading this forum that is truly satisfied with shooting 4 and 6 pt bucks every year? I can't imagine that anyone here doesn't daydream of the "Thirty Pointer" when on stand.

Every county in NY can produce bucks that are 140+. Which county has the most P+Y non-typical entries in NY? Suffolk County on Long Island! Why? The restrictions on legal weapons and the amount of off-limet "sanctuaries" allows bucks to grow older and BIGGER. Bucks aren't even truly mature until they are 5-6 years old, which is when they generally reach maximum antler growth.

I always feel good letting young bucks walk and feel even more like an evolved predator because I could have killed, but chose not too.

Below are 3 young 'uns I let walk. The biggest was a 3yr old 7pt. This was all in Connecticut. I took these with my cell phone and sent them to my Dad, who responded with Shoot! Shoot! Shoot!

[Larry]

I would look at Monroe

[Buckstopshere]

You guys are right. New York state has big bucks in virtually every county.

The point is some of our fellow hunters buy canned - that is guaranteed hunts. I'm not talking 120...130 class whitetails. There is a growing number of "guaranteed" whitetail hunts available. Do you know that every year, many hunters buy 200 class bucks? Do you know what the going rate is....? Between $6,500 and $12,000.

And they show the mount, show the photo and never explain where the animal came from.

I was talking to a guy who "guided" one of these hunts and he said he would put a client in a stand and then walk around the enclosure and push the deer past him until he shot one.

Some guys might not know the difference between shooting a penned deer and a wild deer.

And if you have enough money and time and want to, you can go buy hunts in the Midwest in Iowa and Illinois where  120-class bucks are common. They are like our four pointers.

Nature of man to try and game the system. Make it easier.

We haven't made the distinction great enough between hunting wild deer and pen raised or semi-pen raised deer.

What about a buck that is passed on 100 times over a four-year period in an intensely managed property? He gets so used to smelling human scent, after a while his natural fear of human scent becomes less and less, and so does his wildness.

Deer can become relatively tame after a while when around human activity.

The more we manage something, the more of the wild we take out of it.

[Doc]

Come on Doc, its not isolated situations. How many guys do you know that have shot one or more 120+ deer? I know quite a few and none of them were taken on paid hunts or large tracts that are managed. Only a couple of the guys have more than 200 acres. Do you know how much land you need to really manage deer? They roam around alot lol. The guys that I know that drop big bucks consistently are just guys that do wht they have to in order to put the time into hunting that they need to. Others are just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

Are you really trying to tell us that you cannot buy opportunities to harvest trophies? You can't really be that naive?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Come  on Doc, its not isolated situations. How many guys do you know that  have shot one or more 120+ deer? I know quite a few and none of them  were taken on paid hunts or large tracts that are managed. Only a couple  of the guys have more than 200 acres. Do you know how much land you  need to really manage deer? They roam around alot lol. The guys that I  know that drop big bucks consistently are just guys that do wht they  have to in order to put the time into hunting that they need to. Others  are just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

Are you really trying to tell us that you cannot buy opportunities to harvest trophies? You can't really be that naive?

Thats not what Im saying at all. Nice try though. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

We haven't made the distinction great enough between hunting wild deer and pen raised or semi-pen raised deer.

What about a buck that is passed on 100 times over a four-year period in an intensely managed property? He gets so used to smelling human scent, after a while his natural fear of human scent becomes less and less, and so does his wildness.

Deer can become relatively tame after a while when around human activity.

The more we manage something, the more of the wild we take out of it.

See, I think you are wrong there. The distinction is there, just take a look at some of the P&Y regulations. Its clearly spelled out on what is wild and what is not. As far as deer getting used to human scent and the wildness being taken out of it, thats not right either. I hunt suburban areas all the time, right near housing complexes, etc and the deer there come into contact with people every day. Does that make them less skittish or wary of people? Heck no, not at all. If you are in a stand or blind and they smell you, they are on alert and/or gone just as fast as a deer in the country is. Yes, they get a bit more tolerant of seeing people in some types of situations, but its not like they will normally walk up to people. If they do, its because they have been being fed directly by people for some time or they are a freak occurrence.

[sampotter]

The point is some of our fellow hunters buy canned - that is guaranteed hunts. I'm not talking 120...130 class whitetails. There is a growing number of "guaranteed" whitetail hunts available. Do you know that every year, many hunters buy 200 class bucks? Do you know what the going rate is....? Between $6,500 and $12,000.

And they show the mount, show the photo and never explain where the animal came from.

I was talking to a guy who "guided" one of these hunts and he said he would put a client in a stand and then walk around the enclosure and push the deer past him until he shot one.

I hope nobody on here does this and thinks they are actually a hunter...

[Doc]

Come  on Doc, its not isolated situations. How many guys do you know that  have shot one or more 120+ deer? I know quite a few and none of them  were taken on paid hunts or large tracts that are managed. Only a couple  of the guys have more than 200 acres. Do you know how much land you  need to really manage deer? They roam around alot lol. The guys that I  know that drop big bucks consistently are just guys that do wht they  have to in order to put the time into hunting that they need to. Others  are just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

Are you really trying to tell us that you cannot buy opportunities to harvest trophies? You can't really be that naive?

Thats not what Im saying at all. Nice try though. 

Well then Oak's original statement is not really a "crock of you know what", is it? ("the more money one has, the bigger bucks they can shoot").

[WNYBuckHunter]

Come  on Doc, its not isolated situations. How many guys do you know that  have shot one or more 120+ deer? I know quite a few and none of them  were taken on paid hunts or large tracts that are managed. Only a couple  of the guys have more than 200 acres. Do you know how much land you  need to really manage deer? They roam around alot lol. The guys that I  know that drop big bucks consistently are just guys that do wht they  have to in order to put the time into hunting that they need to. Others  are just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

Are you really trying to tell us that you cannot buy opportunities to harvest trophies? You can't really be that naive?

Thats not what Im saying at all. Nice try though. 

Well then Oak's original statement is not really a "crock of you know what", is it? ("the more money one has, the bigger bucks they can shoot").

It is a crock. Just because someone shoots a big buck does not mean they paid for it any more than someone else pays to shoot a doe or a spike. Money is not the only or even the largest factor in bagging a big buck.

Not once did I ever say that one cant pay for a big buck.

You done trying to twist my words?

[Buckstopshere]

Everyone who buys a canned hunt thinks that they are a hunter. I would not even attempt to count all the big game preserves in this country, let alone the world, and let alone how many paying clients they have....what tens of thousands, annually?

And if you walked into any of the thousands of lodges there and told those guys that they are not hunters, you would be in deep doo doo. They would think you were an anti hunter! ;D

Just because you and I don't go for it, doesn't mean lots of other hunters are all for it. If that what floats your boat...and it is legal, fine.

But what bugs me and my point, which was probably poorly made, is that the value of a six-point buck, taken under fair conditions, in the wild is a much greater challenge and hunting accomplishment than one that is bought and paid for, even though a Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett, and please don't lecture me on "their entry rules." I don't want to go there.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Farm raised or high fence deer taken on canned hunts are not allowed entry in P&Y or B&C. I agree with you though, any wild deer would be more of a trophy to me than one taken during a canned hunt.

[sampotter]

I'm actually surprised that it is legal to shoot animals inside a fence. If those "game" animals were cows, horses, or big,mean dogs there would be a huge outcry. I have seen pictures of jackasses posing with woolly Merino rams, likely fresh off the farm. Wouldn't it be more fun to shoot rats in the dumpster in the city than shoot a domesticated animal?

[Buckstopshere]

"I'm actually surprised that it is legal to shoot animals inside a fence."

Sorry Sam to tell you this, but a lot of the photos that you see,... those hunters took those deer inside fences. A lot of the hunting shows on TV are shot inside fences. A lot of the deer farms where they are now experimenting with genetically enhanced deer that grow large racks, sell those deer as "shooters" to high fence entrepreneurs. 

Money, not traditional hunting ethics and values powers this whole trend in the sport we both love; pursing big bucks in the wild, whether in the deep woods or just outside of town.

[First-light]

Check out last months ODL. Todd Smith in his Editors note taks about antler restrictions. Good article.

[sampotter]

I know- it just makes me sick. There is a clear line in my book between right and wrong- apparently these types don't see it that way, but I wish they wouldn't try to sell it to the public as real. Pathetic really.

[Jim W]

I have been hunting for many years and have probably passed up more spikes or 3 to 4 points than all the deer some of you have seen.  I agree somewhat that a spike this year could possibly be a good 4 pointer  next year but it all has to do with genetics and food source.  A spike with the proper food will develop into a decent 4 pointer next year.  A spike with good genetics and food will develop into a very good 4 to 6 pointer the next year and a spectacular 8 to 10 point in about 2.5 to 3 years.  So antler restrictions is only 1 key to bigger and better deer.

[HVOprostaff_1]

All right here goes this is a vey touchy subject in my book because I have seen both sides of the spectrum. As all of you know nothing is more frustrating than to see that immature spike/crotch horn that you passed on hanging in your neighbors front yard. But I was raised on land where your first buck could be anything from a spike and up after your first buck was harvested you had to harvest an eight or larger. And after that you had to best your last deer and you could never take smaller. If you took smaller you were were banned from the land for one season.  This approach has produced some awesome bucks nothing record breaking yet, but there is something about watching a buck that you passed on last year grow and mature that I cant explain. However while we cant prevent neighbors from shooting immature bucks, and some still do  most of them have fallen in line after years of seeing our bucks hanging. we produced a pretty strong bond with our neighbors giving us a large area for these deer to grow and mature.

      Now the other side of the spectrum some good family friends own a decent piece of property but all of there neighbors are on the brown and down program. It is sad to see a potentially great area be ravaged every season by literally teams of neighbors who will and have killed anything they see. On this particular property we have also adapted a similar brown and down mentality forced by the fact that you will not got a second shot at the deer you pass on today. We do let yearlings pass though and just hope they live to see the next season. 

        I agree with filling your freezer and if that is your perogative than I have nothing but respect for you because god knows I feed my family to the best of my ability. but if you want quality buck in NY you need to let them grow. I can attest to the fact the spike horns will grow with correct nutrition and enviroment. Ive seen it happen on more than one occasion and have seen some of the bigger deer on our property come from that little year and a half old spike

[HectorBuckBuster]

I am not for AR . You need a good food source and good genes. I think Sportsman need to work on protecting what hunting land is left and not worry about AR. I have hunted for 25 years and have lost alot of land where I can not longer hunt. You are getting alot of NYC, NJ folks moving up buying a house and 150 acres of land for $150,00 - $200,000 and happy as hell that they got a great deal.I am lucky as I own almost of 200 acres of land myself and around another 300 acres of family land ( No AR, and look at the first trail cam picture of the year I posted in the trail cam section). I have pictures from last year of other nice bucks too.There is 165 acres of crops planted, with lots of corn and soybeans for them.Then there are around another 1200 acres of more around of farm land, and all those acres are hunted heavy too. If you areas does not have the good genes and a good food source, you are not going to have big deer.

[UpStateRedNeck]

I'm for it.  I personally don't shoot anything smaller than a solid 8 point for my buck tag.  Let em get big please!  Hopefully it will make for less wounded deer because people will have to take their time to see what they're shooting at.

[Buckstopshere]

Here is  an interesting take on AR's: It's a quote from an article on genetics from the Texas Deer Association. I was not familiar with Texas game laws and did not realize that they are experimenting with AR's all right...but shooting spikes and three-pointers there is legal in an AR system! They are trying to protected bucks with branched antlers. Here's the quote:

"In 2002, the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (TPWD) established  antler-based harvest restrictions in six counties in an effort to  protect young bucks and improve hunter satisfaction. Legal bucks were  defined as those having six points or more, or 13 inches inside spread,  or having a spike antler on at least one side.(My emphasis in bold.)

The six-point  requirement has since been dropped, but these regulations intended to  protect young bucks with branched antlers, yet allow for the harvest of  spikes and three-point deer. From a genetic standpoint, the idea is to  try to balance any differential removal of the best young deer by  allowing the harvest of spikes on the lower end. These restrictions have  been popular and expanded to about 60 counties with more possible next  year."

So they are subtle in this tacit admission that there can be a high-grading effect like what was experienced in Mississippi with the antlers actually getting smaller once AR's was implemented on public land.

It is in effect a slot limit, like when fishing on some lakes where you can keep the little guys and the big guys, but not a protected size range in the middle.

I guess it makes more sense to me in a way...but it strikes me as so governmental, what we used to say that this new spin is, "neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring." Most of you guys are too young to have heard that one.

So is it OK to shoot spikes and three-pointers or not OK to shoot them from an AR perspective?  :

[sampotter]

Let 'em all grow to 4yrs+ regardless of points. I would love to shoot a 5yr-old spike someday with antlers like daggers. Forget about trying to influence genetics.

I am a dairy geneticist by trade; the type of genetic selection we practice is a million times more intense than can ever be attempted in the deer woods. There is a computer chip (genomic test) that analyzes a bull calf's DNA and gives a >70% accurate prediction of what his daughters phenotypic traits will be; stuff like body size and even teat length. Even with this kind of tool it takes generations of breeding to change a selected trait. Trying to influence your local deer herd's geentics by shooting bucks that don't meet a certain criteria is a waste of time and a waste of your buck tag unless; A) you have a way to control what animals make up your herd (high fence) you can control which buck breeds which doe (good luck, use your imagination) C) you know what type of antler genes your does carry (genomic test, doesn't exist for deer)

Deer farmers that have a high fence, use artificial insemination, and have pedigrees of their deer's lineage that would rival that of Secretariat are the only ones that have a realistic chance of manipulating a (captive) deer herd's antler genetics.

I advocate letting bucks mature (>3yr) before shooting them. At that age, any buck is a trophy, even if he is still a 6 or 7 pt. (That is not me in the picture)

http://www.wisconsinsportsmanmag.com/hunting/WI_0707_01/

[Buckstopshere]

Sam: But the question is...who can tell how old a buck is on the hoof in a wild, hunting situation? There is no accurate way to tell the age of a wild whitetail deer. A guy showed me a picture of  the most average looking seven point you have ever seen that he shot. He had it aged by the DEC. They said it was 11 years old!

We can have great looking yearling bucks here in NYS that are 100 class eight pointers. And then we can have a 2.5 year old buck that is a little scrub. They are a dime a dozen.

So on a practical level, since there is no way to tell age, especially for a lot of guys who only are out in the woods a couple times a year, since we don't hunt in high fence situations we will never see bucks average any older than we do now...with AR's or without AR's

But why this genuflection to the great god of the 3 year old buck? And at what cost?

The price we have paid by demeaning small bucks and the hunter's who shoot them is a drop off in deer hunter's ranks, a big win for the anti's, and frankly, a lot less fun and brotherhood in the sport we love so much.