Heavy Draw Weight

[Doc]

I often wonder how long-term excessive draw weight might impact such things as bursitis, arthritis, back spasms and other back problems, and premature muscle and joint difficulties. I remember back in the late 80's when I was preparing for a moose hunt, I regularly shot a Proline that was set at 80 pounds. That included NFAA tournament shoots a couple times per week, and endless hours of practice. It wasn't long after that that I developed some strange shoulder problems that I blamed on the excessive abuse from that bow. When the moose hunt was over, I bought a new bow that was set at 60 pounds, and never had another problem.

Do you all think that guys shooting excessive draw weights may be setting themselves up for medical problems that might prematurely shut them out of bowhunting? I realize that it probably depends on the physical build of each individual. But I also see a whole lot of guys that are simply over-bowed. I know it affects their accuracy, but it also has me wondering how it may impact their longevity in the sport.

[ncountry]

Would not surprise me. I know in my case , I suffer from most of those things from past abusive treatment(not archery related).Uuugg,, I strong like bull...dumb like ox ..lol. I can pull over 90 #s but I hunt with 68# and practice most of the year until august with 60#s. My back,shoulders ,and elbows hurt enough.Just because you can does not mean you should.

[NFA-ADK]

No doubt NCountry, just because I can pull a 70 lbs bow does not mean I should use one. I recently purchased a new bow and went down to a 65 lbs draw wieght that is more comfortable shooting now that I shoot much more... I hear guys saying "I tore my shoulder on the 1st draw of the day", no thanks, not for me... I see many guys over bowed when shooting. I would not be suprised to see many stoping bow hunting because of injury due to excessive draw wieght.

[Geno C]

im sure its a possibility. thats why i stay active in the gym also to assist me in my draw at 72lbs... i did recently turn the bow down to 65lbs last week tho due to target panic. Its hard to say tho what exactly would add to future muscle complications IMO. anything is possible...

[G-Man]

Anyone i know who shoots over 65 lbs has blown their shoulder out at some point. uncle, cousin, friends with todays bows and proper shot placement 50 lbs does the trick everytime. My neighbor blew his shoulder out last year and had surgery and is seriously hoping he can draw back 50 lbs by the time season comes... I guess its a macho thing "more power", I've even taken an elk with my bow at 52 lbs... I'll keep mine low and be enjoying it my whole life with out the shoulder pain my friends and family are dealing with..

[erussell]

I have pulled 70 lbs for most of my adult life and have never had any shoulder or back problems. Though I am only 38, possibly when I am older I may need to lower it but by then compounds will be obsolete and everyone will have crossbows . I dont think its a mocho thing, its more of a speed thing. I prefer to hunt with one pin and pulling 70 lbs I have one pin held dead center out to almost 30 yrds. Takes the guess work out of it as long as I do my part on the range estimation and realease.

Edited April 24, 2012 by erussell

[nyslowhand]

It's the "Male Ego" phenomenon!!!! Sorry ladies, you know what I'm talking about.

More bad reasons to over-power your draw weight than positive effects.

Sure, you can probably shoot flatter out further with more KE.

How long a shot do you want to make when the average harvest is around 20yds?

How much excessive KE is wasted when a minimal amount is still lethal?

Is a pass-thru that much more lethal than the broadhead lodged in the vitals doing the "blender" effect?

If you can achieve the same results (dead deer) with smaller inputs, why is bigger & badder that much better?

[deerpassion]

not necessarily true... though you had problems at 80 and not 60, that does not mean that has had a direct effect on the health of your shoulder... Many underlying issues can arise under certain conditions and can exacerbate or irritate those underlying weaknesses such as rotator cup issues, or A/C joint arthritis or micro tears that may be present in the first place causing you to perceive the draw weight as the direct culprit .... as a fellow bow hunter we are all susceptible to issues concerning the shoulder joint that is why it is important consider prevention or maintenance of your shoulder health... just like golfers protect themselves from injury in the gym by strengthening those vulnerable areas of concern in order to avoid injury while playing, its the same thing if you shoot a lot... the more you strengthen your rotator cuff the less other things have to compensate for it... internal and external rotation is as simple as using a band keeping your elbow at your side and pull in towards the body with the band to your side and your hand out in front of you as a starting and ending position.. then for external from the body out... but at any rate, it is not absolutely NECESSARY to shoot the highest poundage you can pull, draw weights of even 50-55 pounds on todays bows are plenty fast enough to kill a deer... shoot what your comfortable with and what you can stay asymptomatic...

[erussell]

At 20 yrds or under you dont even need 50 lbs. I killed my 1st three deer with a 35 lbs recurve. My 1st deer was killed with an arrow that i found in the woods was 3 in to long and had a rusted satelite broadhead on it. So no you dont need a heavy lb bow to kill deer. You should use the lbs that you are comfortable pulling and holding. I have never had a problem with 70 and am comfortable shooting a deer out to 30 yrds. My Dad pulls 50 and he cant even come close to shooting out to 25 with 3 pins. You can blink 3 times before the arrow is there. Thats not for me, I want a flat shooting arrow. Has nothing to do with being macho, I just find it more efficient to have one pin and not have to adjust my aim up or down or try to remember what pin Im suppose to use in the heat of the moment. 70 lbs does that for my bow, might not be for you, but that doesnt mean its not for someone else. If your confident in your set up , can get good groups, and not throw your back out when you pull back then thats all that matters.

[Doc]

I guess I was thinking of long-term injury that perhaps you aren't even aware of as it is happening. Is there a cumulative effect to over-stressing bone, ligament, muscle, and cartiledge that can mask itself for years only to create a big problem in later years? I don't really know ..... just asking.

In terms of how much poundage is enough, I can say that I and many others have successfully taken deer with recurves as low as 45#. And along with erussell, I have heard of others that have successfully used a 35# recurve to take deer. However, in my recurve days, I never shot at a deer over 20 yards away. Today there seems to be an emphasis on turning the bow into a semi-longrange weapon, and the poundage requirements are probably higher for that. Also, there is a mistaken notion that arrow speed can somehow beat a deer's reaction time, so for those that believe that, I can see why they would demand more poundage. But the truth is that given reasonable and realistic bowhunting shooting distances, I believe that people would be surprised at the low poundages that can be successfully used.

But the real question of the thread is about long-term effects of heavy poundage bows, and will that normally cut short your bowhunting longevity.

[fasteddie]

I have a Ben Pearson TX-4 set at just over 60# and a Parker Phoenix EZ Draw set at 70# . I alternate between shooting the two of them . Maybe when I get older I will change the poundage but then I am only 70 so hopefully I have a while to go .

[G-Man]

for those of you that practice everday and do stregnth and conditioning and proper nutrition you might not have a problem for years, as for flat shooting i shoot at 52 lbs have 1 pin for 30 yards 2nd pin for 45. todays speed cams remove the need for a heavy pull,and arrow weights can be adjusted to minimum levels to increase flat shooting. For the average guy that pulls his/her bow out 2 months before season, keep pulling heavy and damage will occur. My uncle shot 80lbs for years shot tourniment year round as well, as age crept up shoulder damage occured, i'm with doc long term damage is going to happen, stregnth and conditioning, and proper nutrition may delay it, but our bodies are not built for repedative stress...

[Geno C]

to be honest i physically DISLIKE drawing back such a light draw... TO each his own. If you are comfy at whatever weight you draw then thats what you should draw. i dont think there is any right wrong or indifferent answer here. If i draw 60lbs, to me with my build its a joke... i need to feel some tension on my draw and it has nothing to do with being macho its called what i am physically comfortable with.

Not for nothing but guys blow shoulders or backs out from far worse then heavy draw weights. im sure there are guys who blew their backs out falling off a ladder. Just because someone draws 50lbs doesnt guarantee them a life of bow hunting...

[deerpassion]

I guess I was thinking of long-term injury that perhaps you aren't even aware of as it is happening. Is there a cumulative effect to over-stressing bone, ligament, muscle, and cartiledge that can mask itself for years only to create a big problem in later years? I don't really know ..... just asking.

In terms of how much poundage is enough, I can say that I and many others have successfully taken deer with recurves as low as 45#. And along with erussell, I have heard of others that have successfully used a 35# recurve to take deer. However, in my recurve days, I never shot at a deer over 20 yards away. Today there seems to be an emphasis on turning the bow into a semi-longrange weapon, and the poundage requirements are probably higher for that. Also, there is a mistaken notion that arrow speed can somehow beat a deer's reaction time, so for those that believe that, I can see why they would demand more poundage. But the truth is that given reasonable and realistic bowhunting shooting distances, I believe that people would be surprised at the low poundages that can be successfully used.

But the real question of the thread is about long-term effects of heavy poundage bows, and will that normally cut short your bowhunting longevity.

it is quite possible to over stress anything in the body... especially a joint... little tears here, little tears there, a rubbing of bone here, a rubbing of bone there, loss of cartilage(not always do to impact, can be degenerative er-go your genetics) and then add on top a that shooting a highly demanding draw weight 3,4 , 5 times a week for however long your sessions are, and if your competitive like you say you were, that's a good recipe for a possible injury... interesting to me because I'm attending D"YOUVILLE College grad program in physical therapy coming this august.... may be something for me to keep in mind when it comes time for me to right my dissertation or do research for credit.... but personally , im 28 yrs old, 6'3" , 220, and there is no question that i can draw 70-80 lbs, but i prefer 65... i can get more comfortable in my set point, and find that im more accurate than even at 70 lbs, especially when you get that stubborn buck that stops face on at full draw for two minutes starring at you while your shaking before they turn lol... hate when they do that ...

[Dave]

I think that the guy's who don't practice all year round will have the majority of shoulder problems. If you don't shoot often and you start off pulling 70-80# you are more likely to have problems than starting off pulling 55#. And lets face it most of us are getting older. More isn't always better, start off slow and build up to higher pull weight if you need to.

[Elmo]

#1. Regarding the macho pissing contest. My bow was set to 52 lbs by the shopsmith even though I think I should be pulling around 60 to 65 lbs. He wanted me to use a low draw to help me develop a proper form and it made sense to me. I see similarities at the gym where you see these guys doing dumbbell curls that are so heavy, they're rocking back and forth. Then you see a friend of mine who serves as my part time personal trainer. He's 6'2 and 240 lbs of pure muscle and he's curling less than half their weight but if you didn't see his arms going up and down you would think he's statue there standing perfectly still. My bow is set to 52 lbs but I can draw that back in my sleep. A guy I know that set his draw weight so heavy, he has to point the bow up to help him draw back and trembles he's when he does. Naturally, he had access to his friends private land and his friend practically hand fed him a deer and he spooked it when drawing his bow. When I tell him he needs to lower the draw weight, he insist he can draw this weight. I think he thinks because he's slightly bigger than me, he has to draw more than me. If you can draw 70 lbs with ease, then by all means, you should. But if you struggle to draw 70, you shouldn't feel that you need to.

#2. As far as long term effects, as long as you stretch and exercise, I don't think you will have a problem. I do lateral pull downs and/or rows at the gym all the time. 3 sets of 12 reps. That's 36 "draws" and possibly 72 if I do both. I would sometimes do this twice a week. You have other athletes and bodybuilders who do much more and they don't complain about shoulder problems. Most injuries comes from someone who's only exercise is lifting the remote and potatoe chips and then all of a sudden wants to try and pull back 70 lbs in the cold.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Elmo

[Geno C]

very good points elmo... i see that alot in the gym with guys who are very out of form and try such heavy weight. Slow, controlled and form is very important. My thing is i draw 72lbs very smoothly. i dont struggle and i dont throw my form out of whack to achieve full draw. however i did opt for lowering my draw weight which seems to be pretty comfy at 65. im happy with that.

i do lough at those guys in the gym tho who have zero form when working out and try weight that is obviously way to heavy to achieve the movement correctly. lol

[BizCT]

A guy I know hunted and killed elk and mule deer with a 110lb draw custom bow made by PSE. He had to go to the Tuscon PSE shop to tune it, as nobody there could draw it back.

[BizCT]

Took an Elk at 70+ yards and a Mule Deer at 103 yards with it.

[BizCT]

This was 10-12 years ago.

[Elmo]

Had to go back and edit my 20 million typos. Never post and talk to a customer rep on the phone at the same time.

[Geno C]

Had to go back and edit my 20 million typos. Never post and talk to a customer rep on the phone at the same time.

lol i can barley read and eat at the same time and you were typing and talking?

[Elmo]

lol i can barley read and eat at the same time and you were typing and talking?

Customer rep. Means I would say a few things and then put back on hold for a few minutes.

[Doc]

I do understand the gym scenarios, and understand the importance of proper stretching and prep activities before engaging in heavy weight work. However, I have never noticed anybody doing any prep activities before shooting their bow (particularly in a hunting situation .... lol). Maybe they should, but people that I have shot with and seen at the clubs just simply pick up their bows and start shooting.

And yes, I have seen that "sky draw" technique where they point at the sky and then give out a nice little grunt (almost a karate yell) and then settle down into a quivering shake with the beads of sweat and the bulging vein in their forehead. I still crack up every time I see this, but I have to wonder how much long-term damage they might be doing to themselves (if any).

But anyway, I still have to note that the way bows are drawn is still a most awkward way to apply force, and it seems like drawing a heavy bow thousands of times is a rather easy way to obtain repetitive, accumulating, mini-injuries that might eventually (over decades) result in the early onset of bursitis, arthritus, and other bone, joint, back and muscle ailments. The problem is that I have never seen any guidelines as to how much is too much or how do you know when you are over-doing. I have subscribed to all kinds of archery magazines for years, and you would think that at least once there would have been an article on this subject. But I have never seen one. This is one subject that would actually serve some useful purpose on those TV hunting shows, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. So I guess lacking any guidance on the subject, everybody just has to do their own thing and then find out in the later years whether they have been doing it right or not.

[Geno C]

Customer rep. Means I would say a few things and then put back on hold for a few minutes.

lmao! i know how you guys roll...