The Expanded Antler Restrictions - Who is excited?

[bubba]

OMG i think he has had a acct. here before lol

do not take the name bubba in vain.

[bubba]

KILL EM ALL just kill em all then we wont have hunting fill your freezers poach em hunt em all yr just kill em all

tired of reading this bs wha wha wha i think ill delete my acount from here and never look back bunch of grown ass men bitch ing about deer SHOOT WHAT EVER THE F YOU WANT I personally dont need to hunt for food so I choose to hunt for a better class buck.(which is getting harder and harder because of the brown and downers) and thats that.. I ll find a forum of quality deer hunters. I feel like im being swormed by a bunch of Bubbas.. Maybe go get some info ect on DRURYOUTDOORS or something along those lines.

this shit is a joke!!!!...

BE safe any ways BUBBA HUNTERS OR NOT I DONT WANT to GET SHOT BECAUSE ONE OF YA SPIKE KILLES IS UNLOADING on A BUTTON BUCK for meat in your FREEZER..

******just in case a monitor has to delete my account PLEASE DO THANK YOU*************

DO NOT USE THE NAME BUBBA IN VAIN. THEMS FIGHTING WORDS

[WNYBuckHunter]

First I love that spot by the two apple trees. How many points does he have 3 or 4 on a side?

Do you have a PIC of him when he was harvested?

Tell me what WMU you’re in and I will see what the restriction needs to be in that area.

The numbers I am using on the two buck harvest are from the DEC and do not include illegal harvest. I would like to see the poll you did on the site-do you have a link?

You are right antler restrictions are the easiest way to develop age structure in the buck population. There are other ways but in NY ARs are very strongly supported by deer hunters according to DEC, Cornell, the NYS Conservation Council and other sportsmen surveys.

And Steve ARs are the most effective way to improve age structure. Proven fact.

Theres actually 4 apple trees there, they are a magnet for deer when we have a good year for fruit. This year isnt going to cut it. He was a 7 that year, 4 on one side and 3 on another. I do have a pic of when he was harvested, but I dont want to publically post it, as I dont personally know the guy that hrvested him, and dont have his ok to post it. Let me just say he was a jaw dropper. I had a chance at him in 2010, and took a shot at him on the last weekend of gun season. For whatever reason, I hit him low in the brisket. He was in the mid to upper 140s then. He was bigger when he was harvested, and was still an 8 point. Use your imagination lol. I hunt in 8h.

I will see if I can find the poll.

[Larry]

Hey Deaddeer1

If you want to see bigger bucks all you need to do is keep the deer population at about 80% of capacity and keep the buck to doe ratio at about 3 doe’s to every buck. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns. You don’t have to let every small buck walk. Also some habitat improvement helps. It is that simple. And you don’t need AR’s. One more thing remember Bio. 101 a over abundance of males is detrimental to specie survival.

Deaddeer1 look the state allows us to hunt deer for two reasons. One to control the deer herd two to make a crap load of money. I don’t know if you own the land you hunt on but if you do then you pay taxes on your land and they never go down, well so does your neighbor. You choose the way you want to hunt on your land don’t you think your neighbor should have that same rite, and not be force to hunt your way. Remember the DEC has stated there is no biological reason for AR’s in this state only social reasons.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Larry

[burmjohn]

Lol.

Sent from my DROID RAZR

[burmjohn]

Hey Deaddeer1

If you want to see bigger bucks all you need to do is keep the deer population at about 80% of capacity and keep the buck to doe ratio at about 3 doe’s to every buck. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns. You don’t have to let every small buck walk. Also some habitat improvement helps. It is that simple. And you don’t need AR’s. One more thing remember Bio. 101 a over abundance of males is detrimental to specie survival.

Deaddeer1 look the state allows us to hunt deer for two reasons. One to control the deer herd two to make a crap load of money. I don’t know if you own the land you hunt on but if you do then you pay taxes on your land and they never go down, well so does your neighbor. You choose the way you want to hunt on your land don’t you think your neighbor should have that same rite, and not be force to hunt your way. Remember the DEC has stated there is no biological reason for AR’s in this state only social reasons.

AR's are there because there are people that actually care about the herd and the future of hunting in NY. No bio needed is bullshit and everyone that has educated themselves on the subject knows it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR

[A Sportsman]

Fletch,

Great point about how hunters go through stages as they grow with the sport. It has relevance here that should not be overlooked when discussing ARs. IN my experience, most hunters go through those stages regardless of the age they start out. You can be 12 years old at stage 1 or 42.

With respect to how the AR's actually came about in NYS,

As Steve mentioned, it is true that they were the prodcut of NYS legislative action. In other words, hunters and sportsman's groups petitioned state lawmakers (read: Polititicians) to make it happen. THere is no disputing this. The DEC was not the impetus. Said politicians rely on votes and can be persuaded and assuaged, sometimes by small yet very loud groups. DEC staffs do not. And don;t nock J. Hurst. The DEC works hard, for little wages, and a dwindling budget to try to provide the most for NY outdoorsmen. The state is large and varied. How easy do you think it is to keep most people happy? The fact is, you can shoot a big buck in most areas of our state. It aint easy. But nothin easy is worth doin.

I know its been said before, but if the majority of the hunters in all of these WMUs support ARs, then why is it that its alway "the neighbor" shooting every 4 pointer and spike in the whole area. It serves logic that, in most cases, "the neighbor" should be pro-AR and passing up the smaller bucks. Think about it. I'm not saying it doesnt happen, but it just seems a little "off".

Lastly, it may sound that I am against AR, but really I am not for or against it. I don't hunt any of the region 3 WMUs except 3A. If it is true that these other areas do not have any bucks living past 1.5, then I can understand why many guys want AR. Heck who doesnt want to see/shoot a nice buck once in a while? But the fact that they institued the AR in 3A is proof that those who argued for it there knew not what they were talking about, and hence the political ties to how it happened. Realistically, how many guys really walk deep into the mountains to hunt. VERY FEW. I know because me and my group are there hunting about 10 days/year on several different mountains. This is the country that 3A mostly is. We cerntainly don;t see many deer, but we also don't have the problem of only seeing spikes and forks. Of the past 15 deer that my 6-person hunting party has killed there, only 2 would have not been shootable (granted most of them weren't monsters) . And we do not pass up many. We shot these deer over the past 10 years and maybe passed up 4 or 5 small bucks over that time. Bottom line, AR is not required here and it makes me cast doubt over other areas where its being tried.

One other thing....while i can appreciate the value in having an age-balanced buck herd on the health of the deer and habitat, etc., i think its a little delusional to think that AR came about in NY for any other reason than because guys wanted to shoot larger racked deer. If a balanced herd is a byproduct, great. But it has nothing to do with why its being tried here.

[hunterguy1961]

Fine as long as it doesnt come to CNY/Finger Lakes.

Amen to that , we don't need any AR's here plenty of bone running around

[ants]

Where I hunt there is no AR. What are the Ar's you guys are talking about in you area? 6 points or better?? 3 on one side?? 2 on one side??

[Meat Hunter]

With respect to how the AR's actually came about in NYS, As Steve mentioned, it is true that they were the prodcut of NYS legislative action. In other words, hunters and sportsman's groups petitioned state lawmakers (read: Polititicians) to make it happen. THere is no disputing this. The DEC was not the impetus.

Let’s get this straight. It is public record. The first antler restriction was done by law in 1911. It was the one three inch antler that some of you still worship. Then the first modification in 93 years was done by regulation in 2005 and the next by regulation in 2006. Then last year one unit was done by legislation BECAUSE THE DEC TOLD THE SPORTSMEN TO DO IT THAT WAY AT MANY MEETINGS. The reason given with a wink and a nod was the women at the top did not want to make a decision. Many people witnessed this.

Most recently the ARs adopted last week were done by regulation in 7 units.

It is funny to hear all these comments about the intent and reasons for ARs mostly from people who were not in the area or at the meetings. There were many meetings where this was discussed publicly when the DEC made joint presentations with sportsmen and 1000’s of people attended. This issue was very well covered in the local media as well. It would be nice to hear from those that were involved and hunt in the area and not from a bunch of people who have no first hand knowledge, were not involved and live hours away by car.

ARs are about one thing having the buck age structure spread out to include more 2.5 and 3.5 year olds because that is better for the deer and for hunters. From everything I have seen a “trophy age” is 5.5+. That being said the AR areas are getting nice bucks never seen before in the area, at least since the 1940-50s. There are 3.5 year olds that run 156- to 173 inches that are being harvested. Both Ulster and Sullivan Counties have harvested the largest bucks since the 1920s. This shows what happens when the majority of yearling bucks are not killed.

Hunters are now just harvesting 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks instead of 1.5 year olds. It is pretty simple and certainly does not warrant the drama around it found on this site.

And can any of you honestly say that you would chose to shoot a juvenile yearling buck if an adult was standing next to it?

Edited July 14, 2012 by Meat Hunter

[Meat Hunter]

From DEC Website:

Expansion of mandatory antler restrictions

Mandatory antler restrictions (ARs) have been in effect in four Wildlife Management Units (WMUs 3C, 3H, 3J, and 3K) in the southern Catskills since 2005-2006, and in a portion of another WMU (3A) since 2011. Antlered deer taken in these WMUs must have at least one antler with 3 or more points that are at least one inch long. We proposed expanding this harvest restriction to seven adjoining WMUs in the Catskills (3A, 4G, 4O, 4P, 4R, 4S, and 4W), in accordance with the department‟s recently adopted deer management plan. The purpose of mandatory ARs is to reduce the harvest of yearling bucks, resulting in a higher proportion of older bucks in the local population, and a greater chance for hunters to harvest a larger buck with greater antler development.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Meat Hunter

[SteveB]

I know its been said before, but if the majority of the hunters in all of these WMUs support ARs, then why is it that its alway "the neighbor" shooting every 4 pointer and spike in the whole area. It serves logic that, in most cases, "the neighbor" should be pro-AR and passing up the smaller bucks. Think about it. I'm not saying it doesnt happen, but it just seems a little "off".

And to take it on step further, many claim the majority of NY hunters want it - heard claims as high as 2/3.

Question is, if that many are in favor and believe in it, why does it need to be mandatory? Seems like that 2/3 would be making a huge difference by being selective in their buck harvest. Not to mention there are a lot who don't support mandatory AR but are selective in the the buck they shoot now. If all these claims are true, then who is it shooting all the 1.5's?

[dave6x6]

WNY. I'll post the picture.. This buck lived to this size because of self imposed age restrictions.. I know that means nothing to some and i totally respect that but in this neck of the woods, there are not many good reasons to take 1.5 yr olds.

[Meat Hunter]

And to take it on step further, many claim the majority of NY hunters want it - heard claims as high as 2/3.

Question is, if that many are in favor and believe in it, why does it need to be mandatory? Seems like that 2/3 would be making a huge difference by being selective in their buck harvest. Not to mention there are a lot who don't support mandatory AR but are selective in the the buck they shoot now. If all these claims are true, then who is it shooting all the 1.5's?

Yes the majority of NY Hunters want a mandatory regulation/law to protect yearling bucks and you are right it is in the 2/3 range.

It needs to be mandatory because 2/3 of the hunters want it to be mandatory so that all hunters are playing by the same rules. They do not want some hunters on board and others shooting the deer they pass. It is just like once a fish hits the magic limit, in inches, it goes in the cooler.

Currently sportsmen are free to practice “Voluntary Antler Restrictions” in NY. How is that working compared to an antler restriction regulation? Statewide in 2010 55% of the harvest was yearlings, 27.8% 2.5 year olds and 14.3% 3.5 year olds. Compare this to the units that have mandatory antler restrictions in NY 15% of the harvest was yearlings, 49% 2.5 year olds and 36% 3.5 year olds. This comparison clearly shows that Voluntary Antler restrictions do not work and that a regulation provides the best improvement in the age of harvested bucks. Why?

If I voluntarily pass up a small antlered buck then someone else will probably shoot it. This is common sense and the Cornell survey found that 72% of the hunters agreed. The only equitable solution is to have the AR’s an official regulation that applies to all adults.

The majority of successful hunters in NY are harvesting yearling bucks. That is why yearling bucks make up the majority of the harvest. That is the reported harvest. What deer has the greater likelihood of seeing the light of day and being reported, the small yearling buck or a big adult one?

[nyantler]

Yes the majority of NY Hunters want a mandatory regulation/law to protect yearling bucks and you are right it is in the 2/3 range.

It needs to be mandatory because 2/3 of the hunters want it to be mandatory so that all hunters are playing by the same rules. They do not want some hunters on board and others shooting the deer they pass. It is just like once a fish hits the magic limit, in inches, it goes in the cooler.

Currently sportsmen are free to practice “Voluntary Antler Restrictions” in NY. How is that working compared to an antler restriction regulation? Statewide in 2010 55% of the harvest was yearlings, 27.8% 2.5 year olds and 14.3% 3.5 year olds. Compare this to the units that have mandatory antler restrictions in NY 15% of the harvest was yearlings, 49% 2.5 year olds and 36% 3.5 year olds. This comparison clearly shows that Voluntary Antler restrictions do not work and that a regulation provides the best improvement in the age of harvested bucks. Why?

If I voluntarily pass up a small antlered buck then someone else will probably shoot it. This is common sense and the Cornell survey found that 72% of the hunters agreed. The only equitable solution is to have the AR’s an official regulation that applies to all adults.

The majority of successful hunters in NY are harvesting yearling bucks. That is why yearling bucks make up the majority of the harvest. That is the reported harvest. What deer has the greater likelihood of seeing the light of day and being reported, the small yearling buck or a big adult one?

Good stuff.. hard to argue with facts... I'm sure some will argue the validity, but again, thats the human condition I guess. Although I'm not completely sold on the 3 on a side mandate as a sufficient AR... your argument is defintiely strong for it and it does seem to be something many hunters are willing to give a shot.

[Meat Hunter]

WNY. I'll post the picture.. This buck lived to this size because of self imposed age restrictions.. I know that means nothing to some and i totally respect that but in this neck of the woods, there are not many good reasons to take 1.5 yr olds.

Ok where is that buck from I will be right over to hunt. What is the story with your hunting area? What WMU is it?

You are right in some places there are so many adult bucks that one would have no reason to take a yearling. Those places are very few and far between in NY. The harvest of yearlings is very high even in the great hunting areas in Western NY. On a landscape scale the majority to 70%+ of yearlings are harvested each year. If you add in the buck fawns, the number of juveniles males harvested is ridicules.

I think the most important point is that given a choice between yearlings and adults we would all like to see and harvest adult bucks. The maximize opportunity to have that choice is by not harvesting yearling bucks. That is why a regulation to protect yearling bucks is so strongly supported by hunters, makes common sense and is necessary to quickly improve the hunting for the little guy. Most NY hunters do not have the choice to harvest adult bucks. It seems some of you Western NY guys have some terrific honey holes.

[dave6x6]

He's an 8H buck. I have reserved my thoughts on this subject because to be honest with you, i have no idea what it's like to hunt in a unit like the Catskills. You are right about one thing though. Even in my area, where i saw 8 bucks, 3.5 yr or older on opening bow weekend, and maybe 40 sightings of 2.5 or better during a season. They still feel the need to mow the yearlings down. Most of it is just lazy, gun slingers who cant wait to kill something.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Thanks for posting it dave.

[burmjohn]

WNY. I'll post the picture.. This buck lived to this size because of self imposed age restrictions.. I know that means nothing to some and i totally respect that but in this neck of the woods, there are not many good reasons to take 1.5 yr olds.

That is an amazing buck. I think most are in agreement that the AR's in place in this part of the SZ is by no means a one size fits all for NYS. The terrain, food supply, pressure, herd health and structure vary to much.

[dave6x6]

Thanks for posting it dave.

Sorry WNY, I can still feel your pain..LOL

[WNYBuckHunter]

Lol yeah it still stings 2 years later

[Meat Hunter]

WNY did Dave seal that big buck from your common hunting ground?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Dave didnt shoot it, a neighbor of my father did. Dave knows him. Deer was not stolen lol.

I say it stings because I hit that deer low the last weekend of the season before he was taken. He was taken on the opening weekend of bow. I had 3 total chances at him that year, 2 in bow and that last one in gun. Just wasnt meant to be I guess. Im glad the guy that got him did instead of a poacher or car.

[dave6x6]

WNY did Dave seal that big buck from your common hunting ground?

LOL, Nah, i let him walk..

[Meat Hunter]

WNY so he was taken a day after you hit him with a gun by someone in the late bow season with a bow? Or was it the year before he was taken that you hit him?

How many inches is that buck?

Dave you are right about the yearling take in 8H when you said “They still feel the need to mow the yearlings down.” The harvest was made up of 55.56% yearling bucks in 08, 52.32% yearling bucks in 2009 and 51.61% yearling bucks in 2010. Think how many 2.5, 3.5 and older bucks would be around this coming season if they were not harvested as yearlings in the past few seasons.

Also both your pictures demonstrate the potential for bucks in your area and in NY in general. It is a waste to never let the bucks even reach adulthood let alone start to express their potential. Yearlings still have milk teeth.

A well set AR could protect all those bucks and even one that is only expected to protect 70% (like the one set for the Catskills) can end up protecting 85% of the yearlings.

For 100 years hunters have said if you can see horns shoot the deer. ARs change that mindset and create the opportunity to actually have a choice of adult bucks.