The Expanded Antler Restrictions - Who is excited?

[Doewhacker]

Oh and here is a link to the DEC site that has all of the surveys so you can read them till your eyes bleed.

http://www.dec.ny.go...r/74971.html#AR

Edited August 11, 2012 by Doewhacker

[Doc]

Hunters number one satisfaction is see deer and seeing bucks. If hunters were only hunting to harvest a deer we would have no hunters as the vast majority of hunters do not harvest a buck each year.

I'm not sure where you conducted your survey, but a more logical conclusion is that if hunters only wanted to see deer, they could take a camera out and watch deer as often as they wanted. There is a reason that most hunters take a gun along and it's not to help them see deer .... lol. I will also say that it is quite logical that if you tell a hunter that he can have no antlerless permit, and that almost all of the deer that they see will be illegal to shoot, I'm guessing they will save the time and money and take up bowling. Now keep in mind I am not necessarily talking about where you may be hunting, or conditions that you may hunt under. I'm specifically talking about the scenarios that I described above.

[Doc]

Ok here goes the majority of hunters in NY and 67% in the recent expansion area ALL SUPPORT A REGULATION THAT ADOPTS MANDATORY ANTLER RESTRICTIONS to protect yearling bucks from harvest by adult hunters. They want the same rule for all. Hunters know that if they pass up a buck another hunter will shoot it. I have watched it happen to me and so have many/most other hunters. The proof that other hunters are not passing up young bucks is in the high yearling buck harvest. The DEC survey found 72% of hunters’ believed that if they pasted up a small buck voluntary that another hunter would kill it.

The thinking is that if a buck is going to a freezer it might as well be mine. Remember 85% of the hunters do not get a buck so your asking for a lot of people to past up the buck.

SO BOTTOM LINE IS THE MAJORITY OF HUNTERS WANT A REGULATION (LAW) THAT APPLES TO ALL ADULT HUNTERS AND THAT WE CAN ALL ABIDE BY TOGETHER.

It is kind of like fishing- once a fish hits the limit it goes in the cooler at least for most.

I am sure somewhere in the big woods or on some huge property you can let a buck go and it will make to the next year but in most of NY there are enough hunters and the bucks move sufficiently to result in the majority of yearling bucks being harvested.

So what we are saying is that the AR support is in word only. Even a large portion of these 67% of AR supporters quickly throw their principles aside when it looks like they might not be able to shoot their 1.5 year old bucks. And I guess that's exactly what I said. Somebody (actually a lot of somebodys are mouthing the words, but have a very phoney support of the principle. Regardless of how we justify or rationalize it, when we say that 67% support AR, we really don't mean it. To me that is not support, that is just saying something for the only purpose of sounding politically correct and saying what they think thier peers want to hear them say. That was my point from the beginning.

[Meat Hunter]

DOc Said "and that almost all of the deer that they see will be illegal to shoot"

How do you make that leap?- the first year maybe but after that you see more bucks and just as many if not more legal to shoot bucks. That is what folks in the AR areas have found.

[Meat Hunter]

Doc said: "To me that is not support, that is just saying something for the only purpose of sounding politically correct and saying what they think thier peers want to hear them say. "

In the privacy of their own homes they answer a question: Do you support a regulation to protect yearling buck from harvest with manitory antler restrictions?

Now when the DEC asks you if you want Manitory ARs in your hunting area and you say yes in writing that is real support and a real request for the AR. That is adhering to your beliefs and practicing what you preach!

There are no peers around doc to create peer pressure to say you want ARs.

That is just hooky. Hunters want better hunting and Yearling buck protection results in that and they have stated so in writing to the DEC.

[burmjohn]

You must mean the minimum antler length to be tagged as a buck. They're not saying you can't shoot a tiny spike or a button, but if you do, you must use your antlerless tag. This is different, and no argument from anyone is going to change they way I see it, just like you will never see it my way. I'm over it, I know what I want, you know what you want. I also know what I will and will not tolerate from DEC.

Not really, they are telling you what you can and can't take and how many of each you can. You are right there, you won't see it my way, your no where near AR area, and have no idea what it was like before hand.

[SteveB]

That is just hooky. Hunters want better hunting and Yearling buck protection results in that and they have stated so in writing to the DEC.

But apparently most are unwilling to voluntarily restrict themselves demonstrating their convictions.

This would be the overwhelming majority of the alleged 72% claim.

[Doc]

DOc Said "and that almost all of the deer that they see will be illegal to shoot"

How do you make that leap?- the first year maybe but after that you see more bucks and just as many if not more legal to shoot bucks. That is what folks in the AR areas have found.

It's not much of a leap if you happen to hunt in areas of depressed deer population. Also, I have not heard even the most ardent of AR supporters claim instant results after one year of AR. Further, what I have observed is that once a hunter quits, they stay quit. And (repeating myself now) I think that a lot of hunters are on the fence waiting for that one more straw to push them over and out of hunting. Those that are in those depressed deer population areas are most likely to be in that situation.

[Doc]

Now when the DEC asks you if you want Manitory ARs in your hunting area and you say yes in writing that is real support and a real request for the AR.

Not if they walk out the door and shoot a spike or 4-point buck. That is just a case of "do as I say, not as I do". That's not support, that's simply being dishonest..

[Meat Hunter]

But apparently most are unwilling to voluntarily restrict themselves demonstrating their convictions.

Steve you are right voluntarily antler restrictions do not work in NY and the majority of hunter do not practice them.

However the majority supports modifying the existing antler restriction law of one 3 inch antler to an antler restriction that protects yearling bucks from harvest

[Meat Hunter]

Not if they walk out the door and shoot a spike or 4-point buck. That is just a case of "do as I say, not as I do". That's not support, that's simply being dishonest..

No it is a case of if I do it alone it will have no effect but if we all agree to do it by setting a regulation or law it will work great. When something does not work there is no reason to do it.

I harvested yearling bucks before ARs because there were no adult bucks. No choice yearling or no deer. Now with ARs I harvest adult bucks and do not shoot the yearling that have 3 points because I know there are adults to be harvested.

[Skillet]

Not really, they are telling you what you can and can't take and how many of each you can. You are right there, you won't see it my way, your no where near AR area, and have no idea what it was like before hand.

\

Whatever you say John. Split hairs all you want.

[burmjohn]

Whatever you say John. Split hairs all you want.

Just stating the facts

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Skillet]

Just stating the facts

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Yeah, know what you can do with your "facts"?

[Doc]

No it is a case of if I do it alone it will have no effect but if we all agree to do it by setting a regulation or law it will work great. When something does not work there is no reason to do it.

I harvested yearling bucks before ARs because there were no adult bucks. No choice yearling or no deer. Now with ARs I harvest adult bucks and do not shoot the yearling that have 3 points because I know there are adults to be harvested.

You can rationalize all day long, but the plain fact is that those who call for AR and then go out and shoot the nearest 1.5 year old (and apparently there are a heck of a lot of them) are simply not abiding by the principles of AR or any of the supposed benefits that AR has for the herd. In other words, their words aren't worth the time it takes to listen to them. That kind of "support" is a very hollow and meaningless gesture and perhaps is more worthless than no feigned support at all.

[nyantler]

I have noticed that there are about 20 WMUs that list their chances of getting a permit as "low" with several requiring preference points (another way of saying that you aren't going to get one .... lol). There's even a few that have no permits being allocated at all. Those permit allocations are not all that unusual and runs similar just about any year. We tend to take permits for granted when we hunt in some of the more higher deer populated areas, but obviously, there are quite a few areas that have things a whole lot worse than we do.

I also get the feeling from watching how some guys hunt and the lack of frequency of their participation that there may be an awful lot of hunters that are on the fence, vulnerable to that last straw to push them over the edge and out of hunting. Yes, I know we all think that if they are no more dedicated than that, who needs them. Well, for one, the DEC needs them to fund any of the nifty programs that we may support. Remember the importance of those license dollars. Also, I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Pittman Robertson allocations to the state may be based on hunter numbers. Also, we are a faltering minority that still relies on staying relevant through numbers to maintain any influence at all. Politicians know only numbers. They do not know about levels of dedication to the sport. Anyway, everybody knows all that stuff and I think we can all understand that we can't afford to be passing laws that are likely to cost us hunters. So that is what my concern is based on. I'm not sure the DEC is up to the task of applying AR in a "smart" way.

That's a valid concern.. but I am of the thought that if the AR programs work as they have worked elsewhere in the country... we will be gaining hunter in the future with the availabilty of multiple age classes and greater numbers of bucks... I do believe that there may be a period in the beginning of any AR program here in NY where hunter numbers may drop slightly.. at least in those WMU's.. but they will rebound again once the benefits start to become more apparent... I do however share your concern of whether the DEC is up to the task of being able to properly apply the other elements needed for AR's to be successful.

[nyantler]

No it is a case of if I do it alone it will have no effect but if we all agree to do it by setting a regulation or law it will work great. When something does not work there is no reason to do it.

I harvested yearling bucks before ARs because there were no adult bucks. No choice yearling or no deer. Now with ARs I harvest adult bucks and do not shoot the yearling that have 3 points because I know there are adults to be harvested.

I've never agreed with the explaination that "there are no adult bucks, so rather than go without I took a young buck"... think about it... you're not seeing any older bucks, so you're willing to take out a future adult buck by taking a yearling... it really makes no sense... and it's one of the reasons that most hunters give for why they haven't began a self imposed AR. Its just like the definition of insanity.." doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" or in this case.. doing the same thing over and over and getting no results..lol

I try never to care what other hunters are doing when it comes to passing on young bucks... I believe that if I let a young buck walk I just increased his chance of survival and the possibility of seeing him again as an adult buck... If I shoot him.. there is a 100% chance that he will not become an adult buck.

[Meat Hunter]

Well I did do something to get different results- supported ARs which have been adopted in my area. Now I see adult bucks, now if you folks to the North West, where I also hunt would do the same we could stop talking about this and talk about how many nice bucks we are seeing and harvesting.

Whether you like it or not human nature is competition for scare resources unless regulations are in place. That is why so many yearling bucks get harvested. I get the feeling your in some are with a lot less hunters.

It is funny that you uses the below quote. It is the same quote used by the DEC when tell us why we should adopt AR at a public meeting in 2003.

“It’s just like the definition of insanity.." doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

[Turbolace]

I wish they would have an antler restriction in 4c not only could we get a chance to shoot bigger horns but bigger bodied deer as well, more for the freezer

[Meat Hunter]

Yup I went from an average buck size of 80 LBs before AR to 133 LBS after ARs. There is meat in places I have never seen on the yearlings. We even got a 2.5 year old that was 165 LBS. Can not wait to get a 3.5 year old in the 180-200 lb range.

Still do not know how to score antlers but it is clear how much more space each deer fills in the freezer.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Meat Hunter

[Culvercreek hunt club]

So what you’re saying is that because you do not want it the majority of hunters should not have it either. Why should a small minority fight against better hunting for all hunters?

What I am saying is once you have it you will change your mind and realize that all this angst on your part was unnecessary.

What WMUs are you in and what WMUs do you hunt in?

I hunt 5H, 6R, 7R 8H and 8M. Lwt me make a suggestion, don't suppose what I am thinkin or what I mean. Ask and I will clearly tell you,. I am not in favor or AR because it takes away the choices that NY hunters have enjoyed as a tradition. I think themany of the ones that are in favor of it want it becasue they want easier hunting. Let me give you a news flash. Hunting isn't about having a mountable or book buck behind every tree. I think many of the ones supporting it couldn't find a mature buck if their lives depended on it. Even in these areas the have had AR...there were mature bucks prior to AR. I guarantee it...just maybe not within 100 yards of your camps. It was too difficult to hunt them so we now need more of them . Heck if we stack so many mature bicks on a property everybody should be able to stumble across one....right? Just for the record , My self imposed standards are far higher than anything AR's will set. I don' need the govt to setting my goals. ...Now about you. You wone of these parents that thinks every kid should get a medal for playing sports, and a winner and loser shouldn't be identified?

[A Sportsman]

Culvercreek, I largely agree. And thats what I been trying to say. However, since I don;t hunt in any of these WMUs, except 3A, I have trouble making blanket statements about them. I'm cautiously trying to give the guys who actually hunt there, and want AR, the benefit of the doubt.

I think a lot of the hunters in some of these WMUs hunt relatively small peices of private property (under 100 acres), so if you go 100 yds past camp, you are essentially into someone elses camp. either way, if it was a fact that 80 or 90 percent of the deer that were being shot were no better than a 4 pointer, than I can see how people would blame the herd, rather than their hunting ablility.

Some have said, "well, you could go somewhere else to hunt." But that doesnt appeal to many people either. There is tradition in hunting the same area for most people.

[burmjohn]

Yeah, know what you can do with your "facts"?

Yes, enjoy some awesome scouting and hunting.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

A Sportsman.--I just really have a hard time with other hunters telling hunters how they should be doing it. You hear the "I am only talking my area, not in other areas" then it always drifts to a statewide need.

The question that gets asked and danced around when push come to shove and it has been in this thread as well. The proponents love stating the majority favor it. If the majoprity really favored it and had any convistion in their beliefs the state wouldn't have to mandate AR. Wit a majority saying they support it and the yearling harvest still be as high as it is tells me they aren't willing to let them walk....or put in the effort to find the mature ones that did make it through.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[A Sportsman]

I gotta agree with you Culvercreek. I don't think it is coicindental that ARs have come about in conjuntion with the other various changes we have seen in todays hunter. Also, I think their has been a tendency for the pro-AR guys to assume that those not-in-favor tend to be the non-serious types of hunters. Like the guys who come up to the catskills to hunt opening weekend of rifle, and then go home. I think people would be surprised that a good portion of the not-in-favor crew are avid hunters of the old school, don't tread on me camp. And not necessarily guys who claim "racks don;t matter" and "you can;t eat horns".

The only thing that hangs me up a bit is that even 6 pointers and small 8s often can be "immature" deer that aren;t that tough to hunt. So if the stats actually show that the large majority of deer being shot are 4ptrs or less, then its clear that those areas have some issues. What is problematic, is that there may be an area 3 miles away, within the same WMU, that has a normal amount of big bucks on it. Not easy stuff I guess.