A Twist on ARs

[dbHunterNY]

4  seasons has it right100%        I wonder, does anyone know for sure that a 1.5 year spike  will be a spike for ever

 

I know with absolute certainty that a 1.5 year old spike will not be a spike forever or doomed to be an inferior racked buck.  I know of deer that start out as 1.5 year old spikes that grow larger than bucks that were bigger with more points at 1.5 years old too.  This isn't my hunch or what I've subjectively seen in the field either.  it's based on scientific research, captive bucks, and heck DEC has a setup in one of their trailers showing a spike bucks sheds and then sheds at maturity.  it was a damn nice buck too, I mean a monster to be more accurate.

Edited November 21, 2013 by dbHunterNY

[dhuntley2]

Interesting. Didn't know I could use regular season tag following year early archery

[dhuntley2]

You can get a buck or a doe with last years unused regular season tag during early bow.

[dbHunterNY]

here's my "short" take on ARs... we've tried to do them with neighbors and some who hunt the family farm both half heartedly participating.  it won't save all 1.5 yr olds having a restriction of 3 pts to a side or more being legal.  it will save many of them though.  we've also seen that not many if any 2.5 year olds are protected by the restriction.  by the end of gun season (rifle here) many are dead.  however, that's with the neighbors shooting practically anything.  that's based on us messing with this type of point per side ARs for close to 20 years and observing what's happened.  

 

i think that if everybody only hunted 2.5 yr olds as the restriction would suggest, then more will make it to 3.5 in each area.  I do think that 4 points to a side, which can include the brow tine, is a great AR to get bucks to 3.5 years old and is the most restriction that this type of AR can benefit from.  there are areas in Missouri and other places in the country that practice this.  some but not all 2.5 year olds meet that, so some will live to reach the next age class. 

 

however, I've found that this restriction meets the threshold for hunters piping up and having complaints who were without hesitation for the 3 pts per side restriction.  I do believe that it's only a stepping stone though.  it'll force hunters to make decisions that allow bucks to get to the next age class.  it will have a small impact on promoting genetics with fewer points but only if this type of restriction is in place for quarter of a lifetime. 

 

once the age structure improves throughout the state, hunters in general will learn and go after older deer.  deer will have all kinds of benefits from better age structure.  NY hunters' mentality of what's a "shooter" will change and than maybe we won't need these restrictions.  the hunting population in general participate in quality deer management willingly.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Its....

 

Almost....

 

Tender....

 

[dbHunterNY]

HAHAHA... really tender.

[Catskill Hunter]

If NY goes to a one buck per year limit will that increase the doe kill? Guys want to keep hunting so I see more does being killed.

[Doewhacker]

If NY goes to a one buck per year limit will that increase the doe kill? Guys want to keep hunting so I see more does being killed.

 

 

Only in certain areas, but yes the herd numbers would need to be balanced in those over abundant areas. Even the non doe permit areas would need an increase in permits eventualy because more guys would pass on bucks if they only had one tag to burn for the whole season..in theory any way.

[dbHunterNY]

I think we could also go to an earn a buck system.  shoot a doe to harvest a buck.

[Doc]

4  seasons has it right100%        I wonder, does anyone know for sure that a 1.5 year spike  will be a spike for ever

They certainly will if somebody shoots them .... lol.

[Doc]

I think we could also go to an earn a buck system.  shoot a doe to harvest a buck.

That's a wonderful system as long as the deer come along in the right sequence. How pissed would you be to have the buck of a lifetime come along before you even saw a doe?

Let's not be in such a hurry to heap restrictions all over ourselves every time we think we have a problem. There is way too much of this, "gotta problem - pass a law" mentality with no one thinking of the potential consequences.

[Doc]

If NY goes to a one buck per year limit will that increase the doe kill? Guys want to keep hunting so I see more does being killed.

And for those people that are super-concerned about harvest age, you have a better chance of hunters being more selective if they know there is only one buck available to them. I think there is an attitude that the first one is meat in the freezer, and then the trophy hunting can actually begin with the NEXT one.

[SteveB]

Two bucks during early bow season, one with last years bow tag and last years regular season. Which were both unfilled last year. One with this years bow tag and one with this years regular season.

That would be 4 THIS year, but not 4 per year.

Big difference.

[SteveB]

I think we could also go to an earn a buck system.  shoot a doe to harvest a buck.

 

Great idea - except that about 40% of the WMU's have zero or low chance's on a doe permit.

What do the hunters hunt there if they have no permit.

[kzcycle]

Let's not forget about the new license fee structure next season. The reductions are most beneficial to non-residents and encourages them to come to NY to hunt. If a hunter from out of state pays lodging/travel/food/license fees to hunt in NY that's a good thing for the state and for local businesses. However, non-resident hunters typically have fewer days to hunt than residents and may not be as selective in the bucks they shoot. I may be over thinking it, but do the reduced license fees increase the need for expansion of antler restrictions?

[Catskill Hunter]

More of a concern to me would be the excessive taking of does in my area. I know this is not a concern and welcome to most but in 4W the deer seem to just be making a come back doe permit wipe out of the 80's plus the coyotes are wreaking havoc on the fawns here in the spring. This area can not see a high doe kill yet.

[dbHunterNY]

And for those people that are super-concerned about harvest age, you have a better chance of hunters being more selective if they know there is only one buck available to them. I think there is an attitude that the first one is meat in the freezer, and then the trophy hunting can actually begin with the NEXT one.

 

I agree that the one buck a year would help hunters be more selective.  I hate it when hunters shoot a little buck because it was an easy opportunity to fill the freezer and then say now they can hunt for the big.  the a$$ just shot the big one that would've been 2-3 years from now.  that defies logic.  for the most part you see what you shoot.  if all you shoot is little bucks that's all you'll see.  if you shoot bigger older bucks then chances are you're seeing older bigger bucks or doe.

[dbHunterNY]

That's a wonderful system as long as the deer come along in the right sequence. How pissed would you be to have the buck of a lifetime come along before you even saw a doe?

Let's not be in such a hurry to heap restrictions all over ourselves every time we think we have a problem. There is way too much of this, "gotta problem - pass a law" mentality with no one thinking of the potential consequences.

 

 

Great idea - except that about 40% of the WMU's have zero or low chance's on a doe permit.

What do the hunters hunt there if they have no permit.

 

 

well the earn a buck comment went over well... lol  specific restrictions don't and shouldn't be for the whole state.  that 40% can be different than the rest.  there's ARs and restrictions on taking doe right now that vary across the state.  it's because WMUs don't have the same deer populations and therefore need to be managed differently.  I shouldn't have typed my previous post like it was a blanket statement that would work every where. 

 

if you saw a buck of a lifetime before you shot a doe... well tough.  suck it up.  if you haven't seen a deer you wanted to take on the other side of a Posted sign, at last light to late to shoot, out of season, after you've filled your tag, etc. then you haven't hunted enough.  stuff like that will happen in life.  FYI I hope you don't take these remarks personal.

[outbakjak]

jmo. yes there are pros and cons to ar.i hunt ne pa. and southern tier 7m near triangle.we practice ar on our land and we see more nicer bucks every year.we also don't shoot does but i don't condemn hunters that do .everybody hunts for different reasons.i would like to see ar in 7m but thats out of my control.in pa. its hard to find hunter that disagrees with ar after seeing how they work the pros out weigh the cons just saying.all i can say is call your local dec officer or write a letter and voice your opinion for or against ar before they make a decision on their own.what ever the outcome enjoy the time afield.

[Doc]

 

if you saw a buck of a lifetime before you shot a doe... well tough.  suck it up.  if you haven't seen a deer you wanted to take on the other side of a Posted sign, at last light to late to shoot, out of season, after you've filled your tag, etc. then you haven't hunted enough.  stuff like that will happen in life.  FYI I hope you don't take these remarks personal.

Yes, "stuff like that will happen in life", but we don't have to lay awake at night dreaming up new ways to increase the odds that those things will happen. We have to stop trying to use the law to beat hunters over the head with. That seems to be the first thought in everyone's head, to just keep tightening the screws and see how many hunters we drive out of our ranks. Well, it seems to me that if the object is to take more does, aggravating more hunters out of the woods is not a real slick way of doing that. It's a disturbing trend in thinking these days that seems to be taking ahold. Got a problem? .... Dream up something to screw with the hunters. I wonder where that mentality is going to stop?

[Bayou]

Mandatory ARs in the state will do nothing to mature the herd. This has already been confirmed by the DEC.

 

"Second, mandatory ARs are not necessary to maintain a healthy deer herd in New York. Statewide pre-season adult sex ratios average about 1.6 adult doe per adult buck; yearling antler beam diameters indicate deer are in good physical condition; and more than 94% of adult female deer are being bred with more than 86% of conceptions occurring within a 28-day period centered in mid-November. Also, the yearling portion of the statewide buck take has been dropping, without manda­tory ARs, from greater than 70% in the early 1990s to less than 55% in 2011."

 

Still... people want bigger bucks.

 

""...bucks have all but disappeared in my area”, but data do not support these perceptions. In fact, hunters are taking more older-age bucks in NY now than ever before in our recorded history."

 

There is no winning. Population control is only managed by killing does. If you kill a buck great but that does nothing to the population except -1 deer. All the doe that buck would have bred will just be bred a different buck.

 

"ARs will produce more mature bucks." Sure it will! But guess what? Most mature bucks are nocturnal anyways. So now we just have more nocturnal bucks, more problems with the understory in the woods (the foliage under the canopy), more car accidents at night, higher deer populations, and less hunter choice. We must remember that not everyone hunts for bone, many hunt to put meat on the table.

 

Do you think the DEC really cares if you take a 4 point or a 12 point? I'm willing to bet they would rather manage the population of the deer over the characteristics of the population. The herd is healthy, maybe not as mature as some of us would like, but it is still healthy.

 

On to the one buck a year rule. I think this is very problematic in terms of the actual tagging process. It sounds great on paper, and it might even work, but it comes with some serious problems to work around. The only way this could be implemented would be a grandfather clause exempting lifetime license holders from the one buck a year rule. Lifetime holders paid a substantial amount of money for lifetime tags. They did not pay that money for the privilege to hunt. That's what the required NYS hunter safety courses are for. If you start only giving one buck a year tag out, how does this fit into the sportsman/super-sportsman payment structure? You can't buy a lifetime super-sportsman license. You can only buy a lifetime sportsman, lifetime bow, and lifetime muzzle loader to equal a super-sportsman license. One buck a year just does not add up in these "already paid for tags." If the option was lifetime sportsman or lifetime super-sportsman, sure it would make sense, but that's not how it is/was. 

 

To be honest, there is no way to please everybody. It will be interesting to see what the DEC chooses. I'm putting my money on a statewide AR, at least 3 on 1 side. I personally am for a statewide AR, but that's only because I don't have issues getting meat when I want it.

[aqua750]

I agree that the one buck a year would help hunters be more selective.  I hate it when hunters shoot a little buck because it was an easy opportunity to fill the freezer and then say now they can hunt for the big.  the a$$ just shot the big one that would've been 2-3 years from now.  that defies logic.  for the most part you see what you shoot.  if all you shoot is little bucks that's all you'll see.  if you shoot bigger older bucks then chances are you're seeing older bigger bucks or doe.

 

a long time ago when I first started deer hunting I was fed up with shooting little racked  rat deer and fed up with myself.One day Iwas talking to this old guy who hunted all over the country for deer  he said the secret to shooting big racked deer was simple   I  laughed  and said  lets hear  It , he said just stop shooting small deer let them go by!!  well holy s@#t  the man was a genius  I never looked back or shot a doe ever again from  opening day to this past wedsday I  let  2 sixes  and a small eight  go by I did see a big bruiser,  but he busted me long before I saw him! that happens to me a lot it seems and always from this same ground blind  In the pines  now that  think  about it at least 4 whoppers that I messed up on then I stew about all year

 

[dbHunterNY]

here's the problem I have... I've hunted the family farm and all throughout NY.  It's completely different in areas even within the same WMU.  I think this is why management of a deer herd and restrictions are such a touchy subject.  for example, all the data that was just post and quoted by DEC is wrong for a 1000+ acre area where my parent's farm is.  with the exception of the healthy herd part.  I'm in agreement that you just can't pass a laws every time to force a hunter to do something.  I don't want that.  Around here though the mentality of hunters lends the deer population to be treated as an expoited resource.  also DEC collected data isn't the primary means to end compared to certain groups having a say and politics that goes along with it.  DEC data is somewhat works at best.  I'd bet money it's not more than 75% accurate.  most of it's based on the honor system.  I've hunted other areas in the country where you have to report/check in your harvested deer to get a carcass tag. 

 

more I think about it the more I don't want DEC to make any rules on restrictions or any else until I get a questionnaire in the mail or have a ECO or biologist with boots on the ground talking to me and others who hunt my area, not just the WMU.

[Bayou]

Agree, but unfortunately the laws are passed with the data they collect so accuracy is irrelevant.

[Doc]

Agree, but unfortunately the laws are passed with the data they collect so accuracy is irrelevant.

And yet I repeatedly see comments on this forum that swear that the statistical models used by the DEC are sound and have been audited for credibility by some kind of accredited authority, and all is well with the DEC statistical calculations.

 

Personally, I am not an expert in that area, but have a natural skepticism about any system that relies on scant samplings and interpolations based on estimates based on another series of other unverified estimates, and calculated factors and constants, and no system of actual verification to guard against statistical creep. On the other hand, I have very little to offer in terms of better ways to handle the management numbers game.

 

I will say that in the past, I have noted massive overpopulation conditions and severe under-population conditions and the knee-jerk over-reactions to each. It kind of makes me wonder where the actual "predictive management" comes into play as opposed to "reactive management". Yes, at the risk of being called a behind-the-times non-believer in the religion of statistics by those who have their livelihoods coupled to that science, I have been known to express skepticism. But even with that risk in mind, I have to admit to having a very difficult time with swallowing a system that has shown historical flawed results as often as the NYS game management applications have. I may not have alternative solutions to offer, but I still don't have to pretend that all is well in the world of game management.