Shot placement on a deer

[shawnhu]

I agree shawn. But how is the grouping at 75-100 yards?

In THEORY, since I haven't shot those distances, should be MODeer at 75. 100 is a different story, I'll need to count my Mississippi's.

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[Five Seasons]

I'm late to the party and need to be caught up. Are our resident head shot snipers at it again?

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[shawnhu]

I'm late to the party and need to be caught up. Are our resident head shot snipers at it again?Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You're just where you usually would be, uninformed and making ASSumptions. Maybe you'll actually read the entire thread this one time?

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[Doc]

Doc, a forum is generally a collection of individuals that have something in common. In the example here, it's hunting.

But like in ANY forum where there are INDIVIDUALS, there will be differing opinions and experiences. To say that the majority of such an opinion is the right one, well, that's just silly. But time and again, we've seen on THIS forum that those in the minority generally gets belittled and name called. It's common practice HERE.

IMO Biz didn't do any injustice to the sport of bow hunting. Conversely, putting "limits" on bow hunters is what is unjust. You folks that are against long bow shots are only one step away from being OK with a law passed that bow hunters cannot take shots in excess of 50 yards. Some of you may already agree with just a law, if it existed! Where does it end? 40 yards? maybe 30? So who wants to write a letter to Cuomo asking him to propose such a law? After all, that'll probably make most of you happy, right?

For the record, I've never shot 75 yards and I don't intend to at live game until I do so on paper. And even then, I'll think three times before drawing on a live target at those distances, especially in NY's woods. But in a wide open field? It sure opens up the opportunities.

And finally, for new hunters and to-be hunters reading this, this is what I recommend. For every shot at live game you take at a certain distance, you should have shot 200+ shots on paper at those distances. This goes for gun, and bow. Want to shoot further? Hit the range and throw down another 200+ for that distance.

 

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone being called any names .... that's for starters.

 

Secondly, yes, I am for putting limits on bowhunters.....self imposed limits of logic and conscience. The thought of people out there with no limits on shot selection is a frightening one regardless of weapon used. And yes, those kinds of attitudes left unchallenged do usually result in a huge disservice to the sport of bowhunting.

 

Third, I believe that those who don't speak out when they feel advice is crossing the line, are just as bad as those that peddle that misleading nonsense in forums or anywhere else. If you are a person of principle, you cannot let irresponsibility and irresponsible statements stand unchallenged.

 

Fourth, it has to be acknowledged that we do have young or inexperienced beginning bowhunters who really don't need to be misled by wild statements of expectation. Here again, to just sit back and let mis-information pass on to beginners is as bad as the person making such bogus statements.

 

Fifth, your theoretical formula for setting your limits based on what you can do on an archery range with static and controlled conditions that in no way represent real hunting situations, completely ignores all the potential uncontrollable variables that have been pointed out no fewer than a half dozen times each on this thread alone. Ignoring those may be convenient, but gives a very misleading picture of real capabilities.

 

 

 

 

[the blur]

I shot my deer at 100 yards...... I thought.   2 weeks later I went back, and actually measured the distance.   It was more like 80 yards.

 

For all you discussing shot placement, go to a hunter safety course.  They tell you where to shoot. 

[thphm]

Let me set this up...you have scouted the spot you feel in your gut will give you the opportunity to shoot a deer when the season opens up.  A deer walks into your shooting lane and presents you a side view, no obstructions.  Let's say it is about 75 yds away and you have the weapon of your choice & you are on the ground (no danger of hitting anything behind the deer).  What do you aim for?  I have friends that go for the "boiler room" (lungs & heart) and others that go for Neck / Head shots.  Just curious to people's opinions.

 

75 yards only if I was using one of my rifles ( which are sighted in at 50,100 and 200 yards ) I would aim for the Heart/Lung area.

In the last 60 years of hunting deer I have seen some that were shot in both the head or neck that have been put down by another hunter

I would just let it walk if it were during archery season.When tracking wounded deer with a Lic. handler from DSI most of the deer that we recovered were from Bad Hits ( shooter claimed it was a clear 20 yard shot).Not saying there are not people capable of a 75 yard shot but not me.

Practice,Practice,Go to the range a few times during the year with the rifle or pistol not just a week or 2 before the season opener.

Take the bow out and shoot a few arrows before going to work or after supper.

[Five Seasons]

You're just where you usually would be, uninformed and making ASSumptions. Maybe you'll actually read the entire thread this one time?

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Sorry I don't read 8 pages of internet squabble on a Friday night. Sad that it's how you spend yours.

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[NFA-ADK]

Doc your wisdom is priceless and most would be wise to heed your advice. 

 

I practice at ranges up to 80 yards but in reality my lethal range is within 50 yards.  That said I have seen string jump and know that if the deer is alert I need to keep my shots under 40 yards or less. 

 

One thing I will say is most good hunters are expert shots and shoot a lot before the season.  They also keep within their range.  I try to shoot my bow as often as possible, usually every other day or so when weather permits and I am healthy.  Helium 65lbs draw at 29" shooting beeman ICS hunter pro elite  camo at 8.8 gpi.  280+fps for sure, the bow is fast. 

 

Little bit of advice for any new hunters, become as good of a shooter that you are capable.  My hunting buddies who shoot from a bench one time a year with maybe 20 rounds drives me NUTS!!!  Don't let your shooting be you week point in hunting and know your trajectory from a few feet out to as far as you are capable.  That is one mistake I corrected a long time ago and it has paid off.  

 

I do stick to my statement that long shots are more the norm out west than what we are use to but the game is much larger and string jump is not as big of an issue with prey in the 500 lbs and up class.  Hard to compare that to NY whitetail hunting.  And No I am not saying they take 100 yard shots as the norm but out to 70 is realistic on such large prey in open area.

 

Shawnhu:  good points

Biz if you want to be a better shot, shoot often and from many different angles and distances and varied terrain to stand on.  EX:  Try shooting on uneven ground it is not the same as shooting on level ground.  And if you really want precision get a range finder or practice 3 times a week like I try to do.  I would not take a shot at 70 yards unless they are bedded and even then I would stalk closer for a better shot within 40 yards. 

 

PS:  I have never shot ANY deer with my bow so I guess I should just shut up, take it for what it is.  Eventually I will find one I like and when I do you can bet I will do everything possible to ensure a quick ethical kill.  More than likely it will be within 40 yards.  For me it IS all about challenge, but I do not see that in many others.  To each his own.   

 

I have a guy who shot a doe at 65 yards with a traditional bow, aiming up at the moon.   ARG!!!  Ethics is something we each have to face and we do it alone.  I can see why some do not care especially when the deer are considered rats.  I could care less how many rats are wounded in the world, hard for me to say the same about deer.  Another reason I hate culls is the demoralization of deer as pests.  Drives me crazy!  And yes I would stand with the petitioners in this aspect only.  My true colors as DoeWhacker would point out.

 

OK I am done with my rant for the day, time to go get more arrows, and shoot.

 

 

 

[Elmo]

NFA-ADK - good point on 500 lbs animals versus smaller animals that are faster and smaller targets.

[Elmo]

My question to those who want to test their limits as far as shooting at longer and longer distances.  How exactly does a live reactive target do to enhance this challenge that a steel or paper target doesn't?  It's not like you're pulling the trigger when it's moving.  You're waiting for it to stop.  Essentially you're waiting for it to become more like a stationary inanimate object anyway.

 

The only difference between a stationary live animal and a paper target is that the animal can detect you.  If you just want to try and pull the longest shot you've ever tried, then that's just shooting.  Not hunting.  Hunting, you're challenging your skills against an animals superior skills to detect you.  Shooting it from 300-400 yards out, that's not really challenging the animals detection abilities.

 

I could understand it if you've spent thousands of dollars on a hunt and that trophy is on the other side of the ridge and you don't want to let it get away.  But if you can get closer but you don't want to?  That I don't understand.

[Pygmy]

NFA-ADK - good point on 500 lbs animals versus smaller animals that are faster and smaller targets.

Theoretically a good point, since an elk has a kill area of around 18"....

 

However the average mule deer isn't  much different in size than an average whitetail.

 

AND, though an elk has a bigger vital area, they are significantly tougher and more tenacious of life than whitetails.  I have trailed enough of both species to see the difference.

 

I'd rather shoot 'em at closer range to assure a good hit. 

[Five Seasons]

My question to those who want to test their limits as far as shooting at longer and longer distances. How exactly does a live reactive target do to enhance this challenge that a steel or paper target doesn't? It's not like you're pulling the trigger when it's moving. You're waiting for it to stop. Essentially you're waiting for it to become more like a stationary inanimate object anyway.

The only difference between a stationary live animal and a paper target is that the animal can detect you. If you just want to try and pull the longest shot you've ever tried, then that's just shooting. Not hunting. Hunting, you're challenging your skills against an animals superior skills to detect you. Shooting it from 300-400 yards out, that's not really challenging the animals detection abilities.

I could understand it if you've spent thousands of dollars on a hunt and that trophy is on the other side of the ridge and you don't want to let it get away. But if you can get closer but you don't want to? That I don't understand.

My thoughts are that if someone wants to test their skills why not do it at the range? I have no problem with working your skills up to the 40 yard or so mark as that's what most believe to be the limit and there's no debating that one could absolutely kill much further out, but for me it's always been about odds. When attempting to kill any animal I think you owe it to that animal to do your best damn job to not allow them to suffer. And this doesn't just apply to distance, but to wether conditions, shot window, daylight etc.

Impress your buddies at the range, not the field. There's little chance they're there to watch and believe you anyhow.

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[BizCT]

Damn just logged in and was hoping to see more activity! I'm a little disappointed. Anywho, I got no problem with anybody shooting a deer at 75 yards with a bow under the right conditions and if they feel proficient at that range.

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[ncountry]

I do not like it , but I guess I don't have to. There is no 100% locked in stone distance that is acceptable by all. If someone is comfortable and or can live with the results of a long shot that is their prerogative. There are those out there that are more capable of killing deer at 70yds than the rest of us are at 20 . There is no doubt a lot better odds at closer distances though. I think many of us ought to take advantage of the experiences of hunters that have killed many deer successfully. Shooting a deer is totally different from shooting a target for most of us. I can shoot the ##%^ out of a target at 50 yds. I have missed more than I would like to admit(and wounded a few) at  10-30 yds. It took me 5-10 years of archery hunting before my skills or odds were even close to gun hunting.

[Doc]

This discussion reminds me of an engineer I used to work with who was able to consistently keep his arrows in a coffee-cup sized group at 60 yards. But when a deer was in front of him, he dinged and wounded and lost more deer than anyone I've ever known. In one season, he wounded and lost 5 separate deer. His shots all averaged right around that 60 yard distance, and no matter how many people told him to limit that distance, he continued to wound deer, trying to shoot out to his maximum practice range proficiency. It became so exasperating that I started to avoid any hunting conversations with him because I knew he would just list off another string of recently wounded deer because of his bull-headedness. I imagine that all these years, he's likely been continuing stuffing arrows into deer parts that were never intended to be hit. He was deadly on the practice range with stationery targets but never seemed to recognize that there is a lot more to connecting on live animals than just maxing out his abilities every time out. Some people just never do get it. He simply was just another of those hard-heads that didn't care about his reputation for screwing up or that his stubbornness was being paid for by the animals he was hunting and wounding.

[edkis1955]

Double lung. Unless for some reason you need it to drop on the spot, then dead in the shoulder with a rifle or slug

[NFA-ADK]

All these factors that Doc puts out are in my mind when I hunt.  I feel like sometimes I can take a deer out to 70 yards.  Then the reality of bow hunting whitetails slaps me awake. 

 

All these factors are in my bow practice but some factors I can not control.

 

1) My breathing:  When I get a buck in my sight and the decision is made to take a shot, well lets just say buck fever is something I have had to learn to control.  Plain and simple this is impossible to duplicate.  Money shots are close and I usually do not loose but still do not compare to the reality of a buck that has my attention.

 

2)Wind, branches and leaves can adversely affect an arrows trajectory especially at long distances.   

 

3)String jump and deer reaction.  Even at 25 yards with a 300fps bow Drury Outdoors missed due to string jump as was proven in video.  Plain and simple even the fastest bows are not faster than an alert deer within range.    

 

Conclusion:  While I can shoot out to 70 yards at targets, live deer are basically limited to under 40 yards 50 yards on un-alert deer.  If my shoulders are hurting like last year I will limit to 40 max.  That sting jump is always in my mind and usually reigns me in from the 50 yard range trying for 35 yards or closer.  So many other factors of the day the could limit my ability to shoot far.  Rain, fog and high winds all reduce my ability by 10-20 yards making my effective range 20-30 yards max. 

 

I use to think shooting long distance was no big deal, and in reality with the new bows it is not a big deal at all but taking a deer at those distances is.  All you can do is advise and as many have pointed out it is ill advised to take low percentage shots.  The more I read the more I reign in my enthusiasm for long distance shots so at least you can say this post helped one individual. 

 

Thanks Doc!

[BUCKANDAQUARTER]

NFA- You may have missed it but according to shawn any dicussion of string jump at distances under 75 yards isn't allowed in this thread. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but your valid argument is inadmissable. Hi Shawn...

Edited February 22, 2014 by BUCKANDAQUARTER

[Five Seasons]

All these factors that Doc puts out are in my mind when I hunt. I feel like sometimes I can take a deer out to 70 yards. Then the reality of bow hunting whitetails slaps me awake.

All these factors are in my bow practice but some factors I can not control.

I get excited when anything brown comes my way. Recently I've tried to be more selective so when a nice buck I'm going to shoot comes my way my knees get all wobbly. I almost prefer the buck that just appears and doesn't give me time to think. Everything changes in the field. In sports those that handle it well are called clutch.

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[shawnhu]

NFA- You may have missed it but according to shawn any dicussion of string jump at distances under 75 yards isn't allowed in this thread. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but your valid argument is inadmissable. Hi Shawn...

Hi master-baiter. Your post shows your level of comprehension, and childish discussion practices. The end.

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[Lawdwaz]

Talking about jumping the string, I think the first time I ever saw it via video was many years ago in the old Gene & Barry Wensel film "Bowhunting October Whitetails" 

 

Anybody else recall that? 

 

 

PS That was one of the best videos ever made, IMO.

[ants]

Talking about jumping the string, I think the first time I ever saw it via video was many years ago in the old Gene & Barry Wensel film "Bowhunting October Whitetails" 

 

Anybody else recall that? 

 

 

PS That was one of the best videos ever made, IMO.

I remember watching that show. Its the first time I ever even heard of deer being able to "jump the string" ……Man Im getting old...

[shawnhu]

All these factors that Doc puts out are in my mind when I hunt. I feel like sometimes I can take a deer out to 70 yards. Then the reality of bow hunting whitetails slaps me awake.

All these factors are in my bow practice but some factors I can not control.

1) My breathing: When I get a buck in my sight and the decision is made to take a shot, well lets just say buck fever is something I have had to learn to control. Plain and simple this is impossible to duplicate. Money shots are close and I usually do not loose but still do not compare to the reality of a buck that has my attention.

2)Wind, branches and leaves can adversely affect an arrows trajectory especially at long distances.

3)String jump and deer reaction. Even at 25 yards with a 300fps bow Drury Outdoors missed due to string jump as was proven in video. Plain and simple even the fastest bows are not faster than an alert deer within range.

Conclusion: While I can shoot out to 70 yards at targets, live deer are basically limited to under 40 yards 50 yards on un-alert deer. If my shoulders are hurting like last year I will limit to 40 max. That sting jump is always in my mind and usually reigns me in from the 50 yard range trying for 35 yards or closer. So many other factors of the day the could limit my ability to shoot far. Rain, fog and high winds all reduce my ability by 10-20 yards making my effective range 20-30 yards max.

I use to think shooting long distance was no big deal, and in reality with the new bows it is not a big deal at all but taking a deer at those distances is. All you can do is advise and as many have pointed out it is ill advised to take low percentage shots. The more I read the more I reign in my enthusiasm for long distance shots so at least you can say this post helped one individual.

Thanks Doc!

Knowing your limits and acting on those limits is what separates you from the reckless and unethical hunters out there. We even have a few resident idiots that make these very same poor decisions. I don't want to open any old scabs, as there will surely be kicking and crying.

Instead of putting legal limits on range, perhaps the discouragement of poor choices by "veteran" hunters should take priority.

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[Doc]

Talking about jumping the string, I think the first time I ever saw it via video was many years ago in the old Gene & Barry Wensel film "Bowhunting October Whitetails" 

 

Anybody else recall that? 

 

 

PS That was one of the best videos ever made, IMO.

I have a copy of that video, and for me that was the first time I had ever seen actual video documentation of "string jumping" as well. It is a pretty darn undeniable picture. Since that time, I have seen a lot of video examples of just how quick deer reactions are like ...... Almost fly-like.....lol.

 

As much as people want to treat archery equipment like firearms, there is always the unmistakable video evidence that brings all this back to reality.

[Doc]

Instead of putting legal limits on range, perhaps the discouragement of poor choices by "veteran" hunters should take priority.

 

Before you attempt to side-track the discussion with the idea of anyone putting legal limits on range, let me point out that no one has even hinted at that.