Belo

How does this picture make you feel?

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I'm with Steve on this one...I hear this story every year, but the only picture I have ever seen of a 'yote with a fawn  was on this forum with a coyote carrying a fawn across a beaver dam.

 

I have no doubt that coyotes eat fawns when the opportunity arises, but if all those pictures of them carrying fawns into dens exist, it seems like someone would have posted one...Or two...Or a dozen...

Exactly right Pygmy.. when opportunity arises... coyotes are just that, opportunists... deer are not on the top of their list as a food source... 99% of what they eat are small easy to catch mammals and rodents. Packs of coyotes are not out actively seeking out deer to run down, tear apart and eat.

Hunters take around 250,000 deer each year out of a 1 million deer herd... which are replaced each year with nearly twice as many new fawns... coyotes would have to kill 10 deer for every coyote in NY just to keep up with hunters... coyotes are not hurting deer populations across NY... isolated small habitats maybe but for the most part it's all a myth. It would be better maybe if it were true... hunters can't keep up with the population growth on their own at this point.

Edited by nyantler

Joe Servello
New York Antler Outdoors
http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com

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totally agree. the aregument is with the decision to not only take a picture, but to post it for the world to criticize.

Precisely, just a matter of broadcasting a picture that could be very easily twisted or misconstrued.

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My first thought was I wonder if that guys reloads since the government, and postal workers are buying up ammo.

 

Well put and totally agree with nyantler

 

Well put but I can't agree with everything he said. Yotes going for deer/fawns is not as isolated as some want others to think. I've also witnessed yotes take down a doe, and watched them rip into it's hind and unborn fawns Wayne Co. Opportunistic good times.

Edited by Fantail

No business with Amish or Mennonites for me.

Until I start seeing reflectors on their buggies at night.

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My first thought was I wonder if that guys reloads since the government, and postal workers are buying up ammo.

 

 

Well put but I can't agree with everything he said. Yotes going for deer/fawns is not as isolated as some want others to think. I've also witnessed yotes take down a doe, and watched them rip into it's hind and unborn fawns Wayne Co. Opportunistic good times.

I'm sure you didn't see this all over Wayne county or more than a few times... that is considered isolated. I never said coyotes never kill deer.. I said deer are not anywhere near the top of their list as a food source.. coyotes are not in the habit of tracking down and killing whitetails.. they do not hunt in packs like wolfs for animals twice their size despite all the tall tales being told that they do. In rare cases they may gang up on a wounded or weakened deer if the opportunity arises and they are hungry enough.


Joe Servello
New York Antler Outdoors
http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com

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If you think about it... even if all the talk about coyotes killing deer were true...every coyote in NY would have to eat 10 deer per year just to keep up with hunters and twice that to keep up with population growth... it just isn't happening. The truth is that the combined effort of hunters and coyotes are barely making a dent in NY whitetail populations.. except maybe in some smaller habitats... and even there they are not decimating herds


Joe Servello
New York Antler Outdoors
http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com

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Yeah well I don't buy all that either. You may believe into what your saying, and that's fine. I'm not saying yotes are responsible for herd or fawn reduction. But they play an active part. Granted they certainly are opportunistic and most of the time I see or run into yotes or their activity they are alone.


No business with Amish or Mennonites for me.

Until I start seeing reflectors on their buggies at night.

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Yeah well I don't buy all that either. You may believe into what your saying, and that's fine. I'm not saying yotes are responsible for herd or fawn reduction. But they play an active part. Granted they certainly are opportunistic and most of the time I see or run into yotes or their activity they are alone.

I'm not saying that they don't play a part in controlling population... in fact.. without them NY might be overrun with deer... I'm saying they are not by any means devastating the whitetail in NY like many hunter think... and are currently no threat to overall whitetail populations in NY... coyote numbers would need to be much higher or whitetail populations much lower for coyotes to be having an overwhelming impact on NY whitetails.


Joe Servello
New York Antler Outdoors
http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com

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I don't doubt that coyotes drag fawns into dens.... So what?

 

I guess if you look at BOTH pictures together, you see a heavy harvest of coyotes and buck, not doe deer. Guess what that does for the population control that hunters grand stand about ;and the antis, as well as conservationists, and biologists are taking note of? Coyotes eat a lot of deer, but that's a good thing -but we got some more "NRA Biology" going on here, again...

 

I have not reviewed the (scientific) literature to confirm this, but I will venture a guess that when a pair of coyotes is rearing pups, they select a den site where they can access prey that does not move much, rather than wider ranging animals like whitetails which will require one or both parents to roam further from the den site. Also, I would think if they did feed on deer, unless it was a small fawn caught very close to the den, they would eat it and regurgitate it for the pups. Yes, a 40 pound coyote can carry a decent size fawn and /or drag an adult, but why would they?  It is reasonable that during the pup rearing season, it is the unmated animals ( perhaps ones whose mate was shot by hunters) are more likely to take fawns.... It is also quite reasonable that coyotes might eat more deer, both fawns and adults, outside of their own young rearing season. Again, who really cares, how does that effect you killing that trophy buck?

 

We hunters sometimes create a situation that we are not politically correct.... Other times we are not biologically correct... However, the worst scenario is when we are incorrect in BOTH aspects... That scenario also happens to be when we are most vocal and opinionated...

 

 

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I don't doubt that coyotes drag fawns into dens.... So what?

 

I guess if you look at BOTH pictures together, you see a heavy harvest of coyotes and buck, not doe deer. Guess what that does for the population control that hunters grand stand about ;and the antis, as well as conservationists, and biologists are taking note of? Coyotes eat a lot of deer, but that's a good thing -but we got some more "NRA Biology" going on here, again...

 

I have not reviewed the (scientific) literature to confirm this, but I will venture a guess that when a pair of coyotes is rearing pups, they select a den site where they can access prey that does not move much, rather than wider ranging animals like whitetails which will require one or both parents to roam further from the den site. Also, I would think if they did feed on deer, unless it was a small fawn caught very close to the den, they would eat it and regurgitate it for the pups. Yes, a 40 pound coyote can carry a decent size fawn and /or drag an adult, but why would they?  It is reasonable that during the pup rearing season, it is the unmated animals ( perhaps ones whose mate was shot by hunters) are more likely to take fawns.... It is also quite reasonable that coyotes might eat more deer, both fawns and adults, outside of their own young rearing season. Again, who really cares, how does that effect you killing that trophy buck?

 

We hunters sometimes create a situation that we are not politically correct.... Other times we are not biologically correct... However, the worst scenario is when we are incorrect in BOTH aspects... That scenario also happens to be when we are most vocal and opinionated...

LOL..So true.  Dont you know about the Bambi syndrome?  You see if its a cute little deer it is held at a higher level then a yote pup or any other animal. They must be respected and cherished. That is right up to the point that THEY get to kill them. Any other animal can be shot or treated in any manner with little fanfare but the whitetail deer, now that animal has to get the respect they deserve, untill that hunter kills it. Then its ok...Can you say hypocrite?

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Getting back to the original topic, I just wanted to say that there is actually a bit of an art to taking good "hero pictures". There's a certain amount of class and tact in how harvested game is displayed. You know how it goes ..... tuck that tongue back in the mouth. Try to clean off excess blood, pose the animal such that you avoid the gory-side of the kill .... lol. There's a lot of nice little actions that we sometimes try to do just to make the picture a bit more palatable to those who have a sensitivity about gore. It also is done so that we can appreciate the animal taken without negative distractions. We try to do these things for deer. Why not for coyotes?

 

I don't see it as some super big deal, but in this case, the picture appears to have been arranged for maximum shock value rather than as a display of a good hunt or success on a trapline.

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Getting back to the original topic, I just wanted to say that there is actually a bit of an art to taking good "hero pictures". There's a certain amount of class and tact in how harvested game is displayed. You know how it goes ..... tuck that tongue back in the mouth. Try to clean off excess blood, pose the animal such that you avoid the gory-side of the kill .... lol. There's a lot of nice little actions that we sometimes try to do just to make the picture a bit more palatable to those who have a sensitivity about gore. It also is done so that we can appreciate the animal taken without negative distractions. We try to do these things for deer. Why not for coyotes?

 

I don't see it as some super big deal, but in this case, the picture appears to have been arranged for maximum shock value rather than as a display of a good hunt or success on a trapline.

 

I totally agree. While I'm not offended by pictures that aren't tastefully done, I know some who can be. yes there is a very non-glamorous part to hunting... it doesn't mean we need to document it, let alone share it. I usually take a dead on the ground cell phone pic and send it to my buddies. But I'm always sure to take a nice pic later that I can keep, possibly frame and share with other non-hunters.

 

This is by far one of my favorite pictures ever, and it's not even in my top 3 nicest bucks. Deer dragged back into the woods to better recreate the harvest, leaves covering the gutout, wound brushed over and tongue tucked in.

016_zpse20b255f.jpg

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"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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LOL..So true.  Dont you know about the Bambi syndrome?  You see if its a cute little deer it is held at a higher level then a yote pup or any other animal. They must be respected and cherished. That is right up to the point that THEY get to kill them. Any other animal can be shot or treated in any manner with little fanfare but the whitetail deer, now that animal has to get the respect they deserve, untill that hunter kills it. Then its ok...Can you say hypocrite?

 

We talk about the 'Bambi Syndrome' but what about the 'Big Bad Wolf Syndrome?' (Little Red Riding Hood?) Hunters talk about predators eating animals alive and/or while being born to bolster a pro-hunting stance... Forget about it, the public is no longer buying it...

Edited by mike rossi

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We talk about the 'Bambi Syndrome' but what about the 'Big Bad Wolf Syndrome?' (Little Red Riding Hood?) Hunters talk about predators eating animals alive and/or while being born to bolster a pro-hunting stance... Forget about it, the public is no longer buying it...

Well actually, I have found that "big-bad-wolf syndrome" to be part of the most effective pro-hunting argument that can be used. When anti-hunters begin their savage barbarianism comments about hunters, the most effective way to put it all in perspective for them is to point out that hardly any of the critters die peacefully and quietly in their bed from old age. It is true that in almost all cases, the death from a hunter's bullet is a whole lot more humane that Mother Nature's alternatives. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out. Yes, it is a departure from the cold hard facts and stats of population control that we usually rely on, and yes it is playing the emotionalism card. But while others are throwing people into a coma with their facts and figures and statistics, within a few words, I have shut some of these guys up and sent them away with a new emotional viewpoint to chew on.

 

Emotionalism is very powerful tool that has been used against us for decades. Sometimes it is good to throw some of it back at them....lol.

 

I know that is way off topic, and not really the point you were aiming at, but your reply did seem to be a great intro to a successful style of fighting antis that I have been using for a whole lot of years and figured might be of use to others.

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Belo; nice pic.  :good:


No business with Amish or Mennonites for me.

Until I start seeing reflectors on their buggies at night.

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Well actually, I have found that "big-bad-wolf syndrome" to be part of the most effective pro-hunting argument that can be used. When anti-hunters begin their savage barbarianism comments about hunters, the most effective way to put it all in perspective for them is to point out that hardly any of the critters die peacefully and quietly in their bed from old age. It is true that in almost all cases, the death from a hunter's bullet is a whole lot more humane that Mother Nature's alternatives. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out. Yes, it is a departure from the cold hard facts and stats of population control that we usually rely on, and yes it is playing the emotionalism card. But while others are throwing people into a coma with their facts and figures and statistics, within a few words, I have shut some of these guys up and sent them away with a new emotional viewpoint to chew on.

 

Emotionalism is very powerful tool that has been used against us for decades. Sometimes it is good to throw some of it back at them....lol.

 

I know that is way off topic, and not really the point you were aiming at, but your reply did seem to be a great intro to a successful style of fighting antis that I have been using for a whole lot of years and figured might be of use to others.

Emotions are very powerful indeed when dealing with liberal, tree hugger types... most of their thinking is done with their hearts instead of their heads.. so tugging at there heartstrings is a very good way to get a message across and shut them up.


Joe Servello
New York Antler Outdoors
http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com

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I've never liked these kind of posts from the start, as they tug at the photographic connections in me.

A picture speaks a thousand words...., but more importantly, it has millions of translations and interpretations, depending on who you are, and where you came from, and who you're showing it to..

I didn't like the original pic.

From a photographic standpoint, the guy behind the lens knew what he was doing and captured what he wanted. Whether his intentions were to shock and awe everybody are still unclear without a little back story behind it.

Belos pic with his boy was "cute"...., but it ain't no glamour shot when you're that ugly of a "bowhunter"!   :elf:

 

Edited by wooly

View my nature photos @

http://www.pbase.com/wooly

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We talk about the 'Bambi Syndrome' but what about the 'Big Bad Wolf Syndrome?' (Little Red Riding Hood?) Hunters talk about predators eating animals alive and/or while being born to bolster a pro-hunting stance... Forget about it, the public is no longer buying it...

There is only one animal hunters care about and 99% of non hunters would probably say the same. Most any other animal except the whitetail can be hunted and treated with very little respect or care of life. Hunt a deer in one spot and its not fair chase and unethical..Hunt a pig in the same exact spot and it fun and done..Just for meat.  What a joke that is...And that comes from hunters, not tree lovers!

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There is only one animal hunters care about and 99% of non hunters would probably say the same. Most any other animal except the whitetail can be hunted and treated with very little respect or care of life. Hunt a deer in one spot and its not fair chase and unethical..Hunt a pig in the same exact spot and it fun and done..Just for meat.  What a joke that is...And that comes from hunters, not tree lovers!

to be quite honest, I don't have a problem with anyone killing any type of animal behind a fence and having fun doing it, that's what that animal was raised for. I think the biggest problem most hunters have with that is when guys proudly display any animal killed behind an enclosure as some type of accomplishment, and the "meat" thing is a lame excuse for an animal that you can kill for free out in the wild..........and I don't think anyone needs to give another person any type of excuse for doing something legal.

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I have heard the camera at the den story dozens if not hundreds of times.

Every time I hear it, I ask to see a picture.

Not once has produced even one.

Got any?

 

This one didn't make it to the den , it was torn apart on the edge of the corn field.

 

post-2694-0-84453900-1397821674_thumb.jp

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to be quite honest, I don't have a problem with anyone killing any type of animal behind a fence and having fun doing it, that's what that animal was raised for. I think the biggest problem most hunters have with that is when guys proudly display any animal killed behind an enclosure as some type of accomplishment, and the "meat" thing is a lame excuse for an animal that you can kill for free out in the wild..........and I don't think anyone needs to give another person any type of excuse for doing something legal.

Who are we to say what someones accomplishment is?  The fence thing you say? People on this very site have said they have shot and killed pigs behind wire and in their next sentence said they would not do the same with a whitetail.  The pig was fun to kill but kill any deer behind the same wire for any reason and its unethical and not fair chase and blah,blah,blah. That crap has gone on forever.

 Its always been the animal in reality. You never would hear a word from hunters if it was only pigs or yotes shot at these places.

If the op pic was a truck load of deer you would have all non hunters up in arms and even a few hunters up in arms. If piled the way they were!!. Ride down the thruway from Letchworth to Watertown with 11 deer,with a couple 120.s and a couple fawns in the mix laid out on a trailer with a four wheeler and see how many thumbs up you get from the trucks with a deer sticker in the back window.  But really watch how many..if looks could kill..you get from those that dont.

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someone's own accomplishment is just that. Their own. If I can speak for jjb, I believe it's when the hunter who post the picture conveniently leaves out the fact that it was fenced, or in the case of the guy from watertown last year, they even flat out lie. It's deceiving to leave out the fact that your trophy was cadged. On the otherhand, I think some people think a cadged hunt means 5 acres, and that's not usually the case but it's not a free animal when it's been bread and controlled. No different than a cow or steer.

Edited by Belo

"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching, even when the wrong thing is legal"

-Aldo Leopold 

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There is only one animal hunters care about and 99% of non hunters would probably say the same. Most any other animal except the whitetail can be hunted and treated with very little respect or care of life. Hunt a deer in one spot and its not fair chase and unethical..Hunt a pig in the same exact spot and it fun and done..Just for meat.  What a joke that is...And that comes from hunters, not tree lovers!

 

Ill try to explain why many hunters have a problem with penned deer "hunts", and you can take it however you want to. Whitetail deer are a native species, and in the wild they do not typically grow massive sized racks like you find in a penned environment. The genetic manipulation of the species is a huge, huge turn off to many people, and not just hunters. Alot of these deer growing 200" racks as 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 year old animals almost start to lose many of the characteristics of their wild relatives. Also, you can go out to public land, or nearby land and hunt them in most places in the US. Many people have an issue with calling it hunting when you are killing hand raised farm animals, with little to no fear of humans. Now exotic, non native species that are killed in a penned environment are not as big of a deal to many, because realistically, that might be the only place someone ever has a chance to see those animals in real life, let alone have the opportunity to harvest one. Im not saying its not a contradiction, Im just trying to explain the difference that I have noticed from many people on the subject.

 

Sorry for going off topic, back to the stack of yotes....

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