Posted signs

[Culvercreek hunt club]

What is this purple line thing? Is that an actual line painted in the ground? If so, how does it survive the seasons? How can it be applied through thick brush? Wouldn't it look awful? I'd rather post a few signs than have an ugly line pained through my woods. And how do you handle the groups of people on your property who simply think it is the path for a gay pride parade?

The trees along the property line are painted. Usually a band of a square on the out of property side so it is seen walking in.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Five Seasons]

If I had not insisted (and paid dearly for) a paint marked entire property line from a survey that I had done, it would have been almost impossible to follow my own property line. So, I have no idea how anyone else would have a chance of defining my property if I hadn't kept it marked with posted signs all these years. Seriously, when you are out in the hills and valleys, it is absolutely impossible to walk a straight line from corner marker to corner marker. And if there are bends in property lines, and nothing marking where the line really is, a hunter would have to do a full survey in order to stay off the property. This idea of staying off unposted property is another one of those things that sound a lot better than actually being practical or even possible at times.

 

My posted lines are as much for my own benefit as they are for those trying to stay off my property. The original survey painted blaze marks are now long gone, and if I didn't keep that survey marked on the land with posted signs, the whole usefulness of the survey would be gone.

 

my father and i did the same. it was not cheap. but it was worth it. we actually found out we owned a place we wanted to put a stand and previously thought we didn't own.

[jrm]

The trees along the property line are painted. Usually a band of a square on the out of property side so it is seen walking in.

Thanks... That doesn't sound to bad. I actually do something similar with survey tape. The land was surveyed before I bought it and I like to keep the tape "current" so I know where the lines are. As surveyors do, you can line up the knots on the tape with the property line.

Either paint or tape is easy to do yourself. I can see it would be costly if you have to pay for a survey. Tape might be better without a survey, since it is easier to correct a mistake.

[Doc]

I could live with another posting system that made use of paint, but I would also like to have the sign option. I use aluminum signs which are basically a one time effort. I have seen paint fade because of weather such that it would have to be replenished every few years..... especially a dull passive color like purple. My signs are bright yellow and are now going on 42 years and still stand out like a beacon. In fact the original bright yellow blazing painted marks from the original survey are long gone now. 

 

I have no problem having my name and address inked on the signs, since that info is available to anyone who wants to take a short drive down to the Town Hall and look on the huge aerial photo. It is public information available to anyone. Also, while I cant remember the web address, I have seen that Aerial photo/owner's address information on the internet also. 

[New York Hillbilly]

stubby68:

 

    I'm certainly not blessed (or damned depending on ones view) with 400 acres, and I think it's great you can identify every line. That is an excellent thing and should help avoid conflict to be sure. However, and all due respect, but I think your statement that; "There is one neighbor who is from the city and owns 84 acres and every year when they come out we have a problem. Why? Because they think they own more then they do and we have to get out the maps and prove them wrong every time" strongly supports my argument.  

 

   I refuse to believe those people are so stupid that they cannot understand year after year. To me it speaks to a bigger problem. In my opinion they do not accept the truth and have no respect for you or themselves, and will do damned well as they please because they must figure there are no significant consequences. I would go so far as to say they probably bust out laughing every time you leave, and give you the middle finger wave as you head out the door with your back turned. Just like every other trespasser!

 

   As far as "locals" knowing someone's property "better" I clearly can't speak to others, but I assure you that is not the case with my approximate 180 acres. I can actually close my eyes and see every square foot of it.I know every ankle twisting hole, rock, tipped over tree, gully and spring. That comes from 25 years of really living, hunting and working it year round. 

 

    I'm lucky enough to have had a board member just lease land that borders me this year, and as a test will share with him every characteristic and detail of the common line we share. If he choses to do so at some point I will invite him to let you know how accurate I was. : )

 

   For me  I will say it yet again; it boils down to a loss of respect, loss of personal responsibility, absence of consequences, and a screw you mentality so many people have towards others. All of this is shrouded by pitiful excuses like a bunch of irresponsible, ill behaved children. Just how I see it I guess!

[pewlodar]

That's why I'd like the "purple paint law" in lieu of our current rediculous, confusing statues.

Several states have - mark the line after survey with purple paint - no addresses needed to protect the owners property. Last for years and is clearly seen as it is not a color in the woods or on fence lines.

Add to it a version of Ohio's written permission only which must be carried.

Then make the penalties have enough sting to have a deterrent effect rather than the wrist slaps currently in effect.

This all would help the owner to be able to better enjoy their land by keeping the entitlement crowd looking for a loophole to extend their hunt wherever they can.

I can see nothing in this a serious hunter who supports the rights of of property owners wouls have an issue with.

So if I understand correctly, you are willing to spend several thousand dollars to survey the lines and paint a tree but putting up a simple sign it too bothersome? I have to follow the law and know were your line is but you don't have to follow the law to post it? Edited September 9, 2014 by pewlodar

[SteveB]

So if I understand correctly, you are willing to spend several thousand dollars to survey the lines and paint a tree but putting up a simple sign it too bothersome? I have to follow the law and know were your line is but you don't have to follow the law to post it?

I'll try to make this simple so possibly you understand.

Replace the signs with paint.

Got it?

Somehow I think neither may be a deterrent to those looking for a loophole or just don't want to be bothered with things like being responsible to hunt legally. 

[Vince1]

              waist the meet           I mean was that really typed.! 

 

typo.... little screen big fingers on a bus going home

[Vince1]

I get it - it must be the responsibility of the landowner to make it as easy as possible for those hunters not willing to be responsible for themselves. The only moral responsible thing is to make the landowner bear the cost and workload. Then to have those seeking an advantage be able to tear down signs, claim ignorance, and get away with it - as some have pointed out happens regularly. And they must have listed personal info publically posted in the woods so anyone can contact them at anytime for any reason.

90% plus of the problems come from those who feel their hunting privileges and wants should come at the expense of the right of landowners. Proof of this here with this attitude:

 

Yes it is the responsibility of the owner because it is his property. You are responsible for upkeep of your land.

 

I could just as easily say that a person is being lazy for not posting their land and complaining when people trespass. Do I actually think its out of laziness? of course not. everyone has their reasons and do things in their own time if they feel the need.

 

I was born and raised in the city and the first time I stepped foot in the woods to hunt and actually take it all in was last year. I hunt state land and research to the best of my ability the land that I walk. But after a year even with a GPS at BEST I have a general sense of my exact location when in the woods if I cant find a well defined point of reference.

 

lakes work but they NEVER look like the map exactly. for the LIFE of me I cant understand how someone could know every inch of their property line when they have hug properties. If its all private land and they are locals you got a leg to stand on.

 

but if you are bordering state land and you feel like its this city guys job to know your property then man you are screwed cause I love the woods but I get lost everytime I go and if it wasn't for my compass / Map / GPS and once my dog who led me out of the woods by sniffing the trail we walked, right past the GPS that I dropped on the ground (love that dog) I would have been sleeping under the stars freaking out and hungry more times than I care to count

Edited September 9, 2014 by Vince1

[stubby68]

New york hillbilly I never said there were no consequences I just never went into detail because I was just stateing the point that know your property line and marking it helps. Not only others but yourself as well. Those tresspassers are part of a hunting club and they do get arrested however that only works for that one person as the next time it is a different on thinking he wont be kicked off what he feels is his. I have fixed the problem by buying a piece of land they claimed was theirs. I did some research and found it to be owned by an old man who doesn't hunt and has no need for it. I then blocked the roadway that went through it that was the only access they had for getting vehicals to there cabin. They had no right of way as they said they owned the land. They can walk onto there property through a larg deep swamp they own that borders the road. Well they can swim or boat as it is very deep . They are not happy and have tried the courts to help them only to lose. Guess they should have stayed home.

Also Steve B you are not listing private info to the public> All one has to do is got to the county wbe site look up tax maps and they can find name of owner, How many acres, there phone number, address, who they bought it from, how much they paid, how much it is worth, and what they pay in taxes on it. That is all public info. The exact property lines are not only a land owner or lease can get them and it is your responsable to let others know what and where you own. How are they suppose to know if it is not public knowledge

[SteveB]

it is your responsable to let others know what and where you own.

 

 

BS.

I do post to let those unable to take responsibility for themselves know where the line is.

Seems many are willing to either take it on themselves, don't care, or lack the ability like Vince and want someone to do it for them. I put my name and the town I live in on the poster and feel that is more than enough - took cell phone off years ago after having it ring at all hours during season asking permission from those too lazy to ask before showing up.

 

I'll say it again.

1. Replace NY's confusing mix of trespass laws with something clear like the painted line law that WORKS in every state it exists.

2. Require written permission to be carried - also WORKS in at least Ohio.

3. Make the penalties for trespass something not to be laughed at.

 

Want to be a hunter - put in the work and don't make other's do it for you.

 

[jrm]

BS.

I do post to let those unable to take responsibility for themselves know where the line is.

Seems many are willing to either take it on themselves, don't care, or lack the ability like Vince and want someone to do it for them. I put my name and the town I live in on the poster and feel that is more than enough - took cell phone off years ago after having it ring at all hours during season asking permission from those too lazy to ask before showing up.

 

I'll say it again.

1. Replace NY's confusing mix of trespass laws with something clear like the painted line law that WORKS in every state it exists.

2. Require written permission to be carried - also WORKS in at least Ohio.

3. Make the penalties for trespass something not to be laughed at.

 

Want to be a hunter - put in the work and don't make other's do it for you.

 

SteveB,

 

I'm with you on the basic premise, but am trying to better understand your proposed solutions.

 

1. Replacing laws with the painted line. 

 

What makes you think this works better than what we have now? I would bet there are people in these other states who think it doesn't and would prefer a sign system like we have in NY.

 

Frankly, putting up some cheap signs and checking on them/replacing them once a year doesn't seem that much more difficult than paint. I think of my property - one side has no trees at all to paint, another side we lost several trees from storms in the spring. So I would still need signs and have to maintain the paint areas.

 

Having the option to use paint in lieu of signs would be great. More options to fit individual circumstance is a good thing.

 

I don't think the NY laws are overly confusing (on this topic). Either way, the same people would write a "paint" law, so we could expect it be just as clear/confusing as it is now.

 

Paint and signs are both a passive deterrent. The same people will see paint and ignore it (or honor it) just as they do the signs. It's like any other law - only the honest people will obey and the criminals will still ignore. More laws will not fix this.

 

2. Written permission to be carried.

Good concept, but the execution is problematic. We are talking private property. Only the landowner has the right to allow or forbid people from their property. Your suggestion would create a presumption of guilt for anyone on that property. Some workman comes on the property and doesn't have the written permission with them, and they can be arrested? Your brother-in-law happens to drop in while you are not around and uses his spare key. Of course, if you are home and complaining about someone who shouldn't be there, the lack of written permission idea has more traction.  I can still think of many situations where this could cause unnecessary problems for both homeowner and his guests.

 

There are also people who don't mind others hunting their land (or hiking the trails). Having every stranger contact you for written permission creates a lot of work for the landowner.

 

 

3. Stiffer penalties

As I understand it, EC penalty is a ticket for a few hundred dollars. That sounds pretty stiff to me. For non-EC enforcement, I think the penalty would depend on the situation. I don't have a problem giving the police some discretion here. If someone is apparently trying to break-in or steal something, I think (hope) the police would pursue a criminal charge. If it is just the old guy down the road who had dementia and wandered off - I don't see a reason to impose mandatory jail time. 

 

What kind of penalties would you like to see that we don't already have? Remember that a felony conviction could bar someone from gun ownership for life. We could argue whether this is fair for willful trespassers, but that has to be balanced with a "zero tolerance" approach which could affect those making an honest mistake. Even those who put in the work can make an honest mistake.

Edited September 9, 2014 by jrm

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I think how easy a property line is known can vary greatly with the type if property without having some type of line marking. Old farm land with hedgerows is one thing but for big woods hunting it could be very easy to wander over a line. IMO.

[stoneam2006]

I don't understand how this topic got so bad...it's pretty easy in my eyes you bought the land you want to keep people off it so post it and do it correctly otherwise even if you call the cops or Dec the charge will very likely be thrown out....want stiffer penalties first you have to do your responsibility and post your land and the majority of people will avoid it....sure some will still not care but there will always be that it's like the saying.....a key only stops a honest person....this is same thing is it not your responsibility to lock your house or car....it should be the criminals responsibility to not break the law....fact is if your land isn't posted and someone wanders on all you can do is ask them to leave over and over and over again till you legally and responsibly post your land...that's ny law just like the safe act and taxes and all the other crazy ass laws in ny

[Trial153]

The post is good example of some stereotypes being true...it personifies the NY asshole personality.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Trial153

[thphm]

How  the heck did this wind up 4 pages long, You have a Tax map of you property or go to the town hall and ask for a copy of the property you are going to hunt it if you are not the owner.To see where the boundaries are , A compass will work, even if it is your property. Buy a roll of posted signs and put one where you could see the last one.Right what ever you want on them,You are going to hear the same BS tat most of us do, Oh my grand father and father hunted here.I tell them ok give me a receipt that you paid the taxes for me on my property and ask the to kindly GTFO my property.      

[covert]

No. It's no different than someone hanging out on your front yard, and few people post their front yard. Trespassing is trespassing.

I Post my front yard.

[Five Seasons]

How  the heck did this wind up 4 pages long, You have a Tax map of you property or go to the town hall and ask for a copy of the property you are going to hunt it if you are not the owner.To see where the boundaries are , A compass will work, even if it is your property. Buy a roll of posted signs and put one where you could see the last one.Right what ever you want on them,You are going to hear the same BS tat most of us do, Oh my grand father and father hunted here.I tell them ok give me a receipt that you paid the taxes for me on my property and ask the to kindly GTFO my property.      

 

posting a large wooded parcel with a tax map is no easy task. especially if your boundaries are not roads/creeks. ours ends in the middle of the woods on the north and east side. the west is easy because it's an old stone wall. but there's no way to know where you are on the other... especially considering it's not straight.

 

[stubby68]

OMG First That isn't a good attitude to start with right out of the gate when you first obtain a piece of property. Why make enemies of your neighbors before you know who they are or what kind of people they are. You might need them at some point. Might cause them to not let you go get that big buck you shot and it ran onto them. I am not saying let them hunt on yours but less attitude helps a lot. Second it's not to smart to use tax maps to post your property They are for tax purposes only and in no way show you where actual boundaries are. tax maps have straight lines property boundaries are far from straight. Tax maps do not show if the lines run at angles either. You could be posting on another persons land. That would realy cause problems.

[Trial153]

OMG First That isn't a good attitude to start with right out of the gate when you first obtain a piece of property. Why make enemies of your neighbors before you know who they are or what kind of people they are. You might need them at some point. Might cause them to not let you go get that big buck you shot and it ran onto them. I am not saying let them hunt on yours but less attitude helps .

What this guy said. ^^^

I had a similar incident with a new neighbor, bought a house and under ten acres. First time he sees me the typical downstate tude comes out. ( I know it well as I lived there for 20 years).

It didn't take him long to find out I owned the 280 acres on three sides of his property, and have family and friends along the entire road. let just say he had a lonely first couple years sitting on his little postage stamp.

Being nice works both ways and should be the default until it's shown not to work.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Trial153

[thphm]

A tax map will give you a good Idea where your boundaries are.They have some sort of markers on them as stone walls, barb wire fences and if the property was ever survayed there should be markers ,usually a rebar stake or pile of stones that is indicated on the map.It will take some time but you can find the boundaries.As for the neighbor thing and trasspassing, Most of mine are Weekenders,few full time homeowners and the ones that live here full time have the same BS, out of state and weekend traspassers that think that the can hunt where ever they want because the might own a 100 foot x 100 foot piece of property with a trailer on it and pay Min. amount of taxes.

[stubby68]

Just double checked all my tax maps. Only thing on them is water ways and roadways no rock piles fences or surveyors stakes. If you go to county office and get the tax map and say it is for finding your property lines they will tell you that it is no good for that. They will not help much if they are not at property line also you do not know for sure where onthat the line is. The line on map could be on the roadway yet the actually line is yards one side or the other. That would throw your posted signs way off. Also the tax map might show the roadway as being yours when in fact it is your neighbors. Maybe this is the real problem you have posted where you think you own yet the people you call trespassers actually own it. This is where a surveyors map and properly posted signs help greatly. A surveyors map is the only right way to know property boundaries and that is not something someone who does not lease or own the land can get. Without posted signs the non landowner has noway of knowing the true lines and from the sounds of it they still wont if you are posting useing a tax map. I love when guys pull out the tax map to show me they are not on my land just to be proved wrong by the surveyors map and the look on there face when the see they are a hundred yards or more over the line.

As for the neighbor thing it wont matter if they are weekenders or full timers if you shoot a big wall hanger and it gets on them and they tell you to stayy off then go get it for themselves.

[Ford]

So complicated for a simple concept.

 

If you do not want people hunting your rural land, generally, that falls under the ECL, and should be posted. (improved/unimproved could be subjective, so post it.) As far as "hunters," taking down those signs, that is another issue.

 

There is a reason it is written that way, and I will give you all an example. 

 

I own a couple of parcels in NYS. Separated by maybe 60 miles. One parcel was handed down to me by relatives. The other one I purchased.

 

The parcel that I inherited, I do not care if it is hunted. It is not posted. If someone vandalizes it, that would be covered under the Criminal Procedure Law, or CPL. 

 

If someone hunts it, as it is generally unimproved, that is ok, as per the Environmental Conservation Law, or ECL.

 

My other property, where I hunt/fish/live, is posted. There are some areas that may look "unimproved." And that is why I post it.

 

Pretty simple really.

[Five Seasons]

A tax map will give you a good Idea where your boundaries are.They have some sort of markers on them as stone walls, barb wire fences and if the property was ever survayed there should be markers ,usually a rebar stake or pile of stones that is indicated on the map.It will take some time but you can find the boundaries.As for the neighbor thing and trasspassing, Most of mine are Weekenders,few full time homeowners and the ones that live here full time have the same BS, out of state and weekend traspassers that think that the can hunt where ever they want because the might own a 100 foot x 100 foot piece of property with a trailer on it and pay Min. amount of taxes.

I don't know how big your parcel is, but is not that easy. Most stakes are buried and without survey gear you cannot accurately eyeball from one stake to another. I had a 5 acre piece one time that had a perfect tree, but was just over the "eyeball" line. To this day I do not know if that tree is mine or not.

[Doc]

I Post my front yard.

I post the road-side in front of my place. Of course the actual house, outbuildings and yard areas are 1000' from the road with the front being swamp and thicket.