Why no rifles in some shotgun only areas

[wildcat junkie]

I know I've read before that shotgun slugs tend to ricochet WORSE than rifle bullets.

Yes that is probably true, but they are more likely to tumble & aren't liable to go nearly as far as a rifle bullet.

 

Lethality range for medium bore high powered CF rifles are measured in miles. Shotguns, in hundreds of yards.

 

Even a 22rf will travel farther than a shotgun slug. Granted, some of the modern sabot rounds will extend the lethal range. The mandated pressure limits on shotguns rounds will still limit lethality to far less than say a 30-06.

 

After all, like it or not, laws are usually geared towards the lowest common denominator.

[Lawdwaz]

does anyone agree that the bucks get a little older ,at least another year in shotgun only areas ? Ive hunted both and can see the bucks getting by to live another year in shotgun areas, i like it !

 

No way can you see that. 

[Lawdwaz]

Yes that is probably true, but they are more likely to tumble & aren't liable to go nearly as far as a rifle bullet.

 

Lethality range for medium bore high powered CF rifles are measured in miles. Shotguns, in hundreds of yards.

 

Even a 22rf will travel farther than a shotgun slug. Granted, some of the modern sabot rounds will extend the lethal range. The mandated pressure limits on shotguns rounds will still limit lethality to far less than say a 30-06.

 

After all, like it or not, laws are usually geared towards the lowest common denominator.

 

So what reason would you say prompted all these counties in NYS to choose to allow rifles? 

 

I've never spent much time in Wayne County but sure have in Livingston and Ontario and bothe of them have a pile of open and flat ground.  Plenty of places for those CF rounds to travel MILES. 

 

Terribly dangerous but nary an accident that I've seen............Odd?

 

[wildcat junkie]

So what reason would you say prompted all these counties in NYS to choose to allow rifles? 

 

I've never spent much time in Wayne County but sure have in Livingston and Ontario and bothe of them have a pile of open and flat ground.  Plenty of places for those CF rounds to travel MILES. 

 

Terribly dangerous but nary an accident that I've seen............Odd?

 

Could it be that population densities might have something to do W/it?

 

Besides, these things are decided by the people that live there & I would think the residents would have more say than someone that wants to hunt in the vicinity that may or may not even live in the area..

Edited December 31, 2014 by wildcat junkie

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Could it be that population densities might have something to do W/it?

Besides, these things are decided by the people that live there & I would think the residents would have more say than someone that wants to hunt in the vicinity that may or may not even live in the area..

I get that. Wayne is more dense than those rural areas like. Say Corning. I heat Watertown gets shot up every year too.

[wildcat junkie]

I get that. Wayne is more dense than those rural areas like. Say Corning. I heat Watertown gets shot up every year too.

Good point. What is the firearms deer kill within the cities of Watertown & Corning anyway?

[WNYBuckHunter]

So wait, rifle bullets dont tumble after they hit something and ricochet? They dont lose any of their speed or momentum? The dont fragment or deform? Sounds like magic lol. Testing has shown that shotgun slugs hold together better and tend to go further with more momentum after a ricochet than smaller, lighter rifle bullets.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Good point. What is the firearms deer kill within the cities of Watertown & Corning anyway?

Not sure. But with a mile or 3 from the limits I bet pretty good.

[EspressoBuzz]

But yet you can use a rifle to kill coyotes outside of deer season in shotgun areas.

 

I'm pretty darn sure it's no rifles at all in Westchester and Suffolk counties regardless of what you are hunting.

 

My cousin in Durham NC told me in Durham county you can only use a rifle from a tree stand, which makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I'm pretty darn sure it's no rifles at all in Westchester and Suffolk counties regardless of what you are hunting.

My cousin in Durham NC told me in Durham county you can only use a rifle from a tree stand, which makes perfect sense to me.

So you can sit in a 15' tree stand and take a 200 yard shot into a meadow but can't stand on the ground and overlook a ravine? My main problem with all of this is trying to legislate our common safety rules and practices. No matter what you can't cure stupid and it doesn't matter what type of weapon is carried.

[G-Man]

I apologize and post calibers allowed in ohio now. Legal deer hunting rifles are chambered for the following calibers: .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith & Wesson, .454 Casull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110 and .500 Smith & Wesson.

[Doc]

About the only potential safety-negative of opening up counties to rifles that I can see is that rifles do promote longer shots that shotgun shooters would never think of even trying. Longer shots generally can mean reduced clarity of vision, more potential for not recognizing people or objects behind the target and flatter trajectory that extends the reach of ill advised shot-direction. As I look out my dining room window, and look across the 300 yards to the next hedgerow across the field, I am reminded that a shotgunner shooting from that far hedgerow really would have to be aiming yards above any deer to have his slug even make it to the house. It's not really a very realistic shot to even attempt with a shotgun. Many of the rifles being used out there would make a deer near the house a tempting target for hunters posted in that far hedgerow. One thing I know for sure is that for many, maybe even most, of the calibers used out there, the capability for the bullet to reach the house is really not in question. So yes, rifle usage has opened up some additional capability for the house to be hit.

 

So, am I cowering in my basement throughout the season. Not hardly. There is an awful lot of maybes, probablys, possiblys, involved in all of the above, and they all ignore the fact that my house is a huge visible structure even at 300 yards, that someone has to be completely wacked out to be shooting at. Can it happen? ... yes. And I could get killed by a meteor fragment too ..... lol. Let the issue be settled by the stats. Unless we have a sudden influx of crazy people, the stats will mirror other counties that have had the rifle laws for years, and the sky really won't fall just in our county.

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

The higher the deer population the more likely rifles to be open for deer. If hunters are not killing enough with shotguns they give them rifles. Maybe???

[wildcat junkie]

The higher the deer population the more likely rifles to be open for deer. If hunters are not killing enough with shotguns they give them rifles. Maybe???

That's the reasoning behind some midwestern states allowing the straight wall rifle cartridges.

 

Or rather smaller numbers of deer in the past were part of the reasoning behind shotgun/muzzleloader only.

 

Pennsylvania had shotgun W/rifled slugs only & buckshot only counties when I lived there. That was solely due to poulation density. Allegheny Co (Pittsburgh area) was rifled slug only & it was becoming quite the trophy deer area in the earlly '70s. The counties around Philli were buckshot only.

[Lawdwaz]

One thing that I think is beneficial to the use of rifles and could have had an influence on the legalization is the fact that *most* deer hunters that hunted with shotguns are using pump or autoloading guns, typically loaded with 5 shots.

 

*MOST* (and I say that with NO data to back it up) deer hunters now using rifles are using bolt actions; yes, they could be loaded with 5 cartridges too but they don't get emptied on a running buck/doe in the woods like a shotgunner might typically do. 

 

I don't meant to paint with a broad brush but I think the rounds spent when comparing rifles to shotguns will be less.  Most will pick their shots better with a rifle as they know they have *generally* much better accuracy with the CF rifle as opposed to the shotgun. 

 

Less rounds flying around equates to less chance for a stray slug/bullet to go whizzing into Doc's living room davenport in the Bristol Hacienda. 

[Lawdwaz]

That's the reasoning behind some midwestern states allowing the straight wall rifle cartridges.

 

Or rather smaller numbers of deer in the past were part of the reasoning behind shotgun/muzzleloader only.

 

Pennsylvania had shotgun W/rifled slugs only & buckshot only counties when I lived there. That was solely due to poulation density. Allegheny Co (Pittsburgh area) was rifled slug only & it was becoming quite the trophy deer area in the earlly '70s. The counties around Philli were buckshot only.

 

Could you imagine the lawmakers in NYS trying to set laws for rifle hunting with things like straight wall cases, caliber restrictions etc? 

 

Holy Kielbasa they'd be at it for 50 more years, I'd be dead from "Deerslayer Recoil" long before. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Could you imagine the lawmakers in NYS trying to set laws for rifle hunting with things like straight wall cases, caliber restrictions etc? 

 

Holy Kielbasa they'd be at it for 50 more years, I'd be dead from "Deerslayer Recoil" long before. 

Yeah no kidding. They would be written by attorneys that don't know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun.

[moog5050]

Yeah no kidding. They would be written by attorneys that don't know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun.

 

 

Culver, you are so tough on lawyers.  Give them a break.  I am beginning to learn the difference between the two.  The shotgun has the bigger diameter barrel, right?  lol

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Culver, you are so tough on lawyers.  Give them a break.  I am beginning to learn the difference between the two.  The shotgun has the bigger diameter barrel, right?  lol

Just prejudice.  My Father in law was one. LOL. I just meant they ones they use to write regulations and laws that have no clue about what they are writing.  They are artists of making the simple complex.

[phade]

About the only potential safety-negative of opening up counties to rifles that I can see is that rifles do promote longer shots that shotgun shooters would never think of even trying. Longer shots generally can mean reduced clarity of vision, more potential for not recognizing people or objects behind the target and flatter trajectory that extends the reach of ill advised shot-direction. As I look out my dining room window, and look across the 300 yards to the next hedgerow across the field, I am reminded that a shotgunner shooting from that far hedgerow really would have to be aiming yards above any deer to have his slug even make it to the house. It's not really a very realistic shot to even attempt with a shotgun. Many of the rifles being used out there would make a deer near the house a tempting target for hunters posted in that far hedgerow. One thing I know for sure is that for many, maybe even most, of the calibers used out there, the capability for the bullet to reach the house is really not in question. So yes, rifle usage has opened up some additional capability for the house to be hit.

 

So, am I cowering in my basement throughout the season. Not hardly. There is an awful lot of maybes, probablys, possiblys, involved in all of the above, and they all ignore the fact that my house is a huge visible structure even at 300 yards, that someone has to be completely wacked out to be shooting at. Can it happen? ... yes. And I could get killed by a meteor fragment too ..... lol. Let the issue be settled by the stats. Unless we have a sudden influx of crazy people, the stats will mirror other counties that have had the rifle laws for years, and the sky really won't fall just in our county.

 

Good point. Same thing can be said with the 1/2 hour rule and the number of other states that have it.

[moog5050]

Just prejudice.  My Father in law was one. LOL. I just meant they ones they use to write regulations and laws that have no clue about what they are writing.  They are artists of making the simple complex.

 

 

Honestly, I think a lot of the writing is done by non-lawyer staff and then passed around for comments to the point where the law makes little sense in the end.  It is a lousy system.

[phade]

Honestly, I think a lot of the writing is done by non-lawyer staff and then passed around for comments to the point where the law makes little sense in the end.  It is a lousy system.

 

A lawyer blaming someone or something else....when will it stop? Non-lawyer lives matter!

 

We do that stuff here between compliance and legal. Funny thing is that most of the compliance and counsel think they are great writers. They'd hand stuff over...and I would have to hide my cringe reaction most times. A lawyer that writes well generally is a quality lawyer.

Edited December 31, 2014 by phade

[Doc]

Good point. Same thing can be said with the 1/2 hour rule and the number of other states that have it.

That would be an interesting study. Has anyone done it? ...... Time of day that hunting accidents/fatalities actually happen .... who knows what conclusions might spring out? It is truly amazing how little data is available on causes of hunting accidents in any state (including NYS) relating to any of the specific safety concerns. I'm not even sure if NYS intends to keep stats on weapons used in gun related hunting incidents.