Antler Restrictions - voluntary or otherwise

[Five Seasons]

You do know that there are very few areas in the midwest with ARs, right? Even Illinois, the one with the most, doesnt have them everywhere.

 

Saying the Midwest has good deer hunting because of ARs is complete nonsense. You have to start looking at many other factors, like large chunks of contiguous land, little pressure on the deer, low hunter numbers, and thats even before you go into the reasons why the average buck out there is larger than in NY.

 

my argument was more about hunter numbers. While I know that there aren't ARs everywhere, people hunt the midwest for their big bucks. If they have big bucks because of their land and crops that's great. That's something that NY, Michigan, OH and PA all struggle with due to population and urban sprawl. So in my opinion ARs or reducing tags is the way to go. I believe you will not see license sales drop. With bigger buck I believe you will have more sales. Regardless of how you get there. Michigan has increased 4% in the last few years where ARs have been implemented. In addition their herds have grown giving hunters more opportunities at doe. I can't link to the D&DH article, but for those that subscribe you can back me up.

[Five Seasons]

Everything is money to you isn't it?  So what would happen in NYS if it became the big buck state that you want it to become(not like it will ever happen)?? Instead of having thousands of people who can enjoy hunting for a moderate cost, you want only a few to be able to enjoy it at top dollar so people like you can get their cut from it?  That is BS right there, and discounts any statements you make around here. The DEC surely wouldn't benefit from having this state be a trophy mecca.  Yeah, maybe they could sell non-resident tags at higher cost, but what good would that do when thousands of other residents hunters would be giving up the sport and they would lose all those license fees?  I tell you, out of all the people on this site your ideas have got to be the most convoluted of anyones.

 

bow numbers have been up in NY... so why not add crossbows? haha. One thing we often forget when we talk hunter numbers is that upstate population in general has been declining. Hard to grow numbers when your people are leaving.

[gfdeputy2]

Well for us we love seeing the # of deer NY has to offer that is why we have been hunting NY for years

if there were a statewide AR we would go elsewhere for 1 week of hunting we are looking to fill some tags, Have fun & not have to drive cross country. Would suck to have to start over somewhere else Naples area has been great to us, people are friendly but main purpose is to fill the coolers. If the state/hunting community wants bigger bucks so be it. I know a lot of people that hunt NY for the reasonable price & wont if it becomes a high $$$ hunting state don't expect many to care how I feel just thought i'd share my feelings on it

[Five Seasons]

so why cant you fill your freezer with doe?

[steve863]

bow numbers have been up in NY... so why not add crossbows? haha. One thing we often forget when we talk hunter numbers is that upstate population in general has been declining. Hard to grow numbers when your people are leaving.

 

 

I don't expect hunter numbers to grow.  I honestly can't see that happening for numerous reasons.  Making this state a trophy deer mecca, as far fetched an idea as that is sure as hell won't bring in more revenue for the DEC either.  They would gain a few more non-residents at the expense of many residents, so in the end they'd break even at best, or have a substantial loss at the worst.

[gfdeputy2]

Belo I could in the last few years we have seen very few does on the state land we hunt

& have taken 5 bucks in the last 3 years

but yet the 4 -5 of us still get 2 doe tags each

I just think AR's is not the right thing to do unless it is for population increase if all hunters are paying the same price for a license then that hunter should have a right to kill a deer he/she seems fit

Just as some want a huge rack some want the meat I say leave it up to the hunters to decide

 

[burmjohn]

Burmjohn wears earrings that turn into earplugs when anyone says anything negative about AR's, so he couldn't possibly be hearing anyone. LOL

What?

Everyone can say what they want. The fact is they protect yearling bucks and no one can dispute it. People in 3H are harvesting older bigger and meatier bucks now. And you can finally see a good spread of age structure forming.

[Doc]

 

nobody said state wide. Would be horrible for some areas like the daks and others that generally have overpopulation.

Oh goody. Everyone whines about how NYS mis-manages the herd, and that they don't have the capability to do it right with what they already have on their plate. So now let's give them yet another thing to manage. We can fatten up those law books some more too. AR here but not there. AR 3 points there but over here its 4 points. Yup that's just what we need. Use their population guestimates to manage it? ......right. We have wild population swings within a single valley .....ha-ha. Most likely that is why the DEC has been dragging its feet over the issue, they have no idea how to adequately manage it.

[Five Seasons]

Belo I could in the last few years we have seen very few does on the state land we hunt

& have taken 5 bucks in the last 3 years

but yet the 4 -5 of us still get 2 doe tags each

I just think AR's is not the right thing to do unless it is for population increase if all hunters are paying the same price for a license then that hunter should have a right to kill a deer he/she seems fit

Just as some want a huge rack some want the meat I say leave it up to the hunters to decide

 

I hear you and I now hunt some public land down south and I realize how spoiled i was with private land. I just don't agree with your comment regarding you paying and being able to do what you want. Without the correct management program eventually we all suffer. Lord knows the poachers do enough damage.

 

Oh goody. Everyone whines about how NYS mis-manages the herd, and that they don't have the capability to do it right with what they already have on their plate. So now let's give them yet another thing to manage. We can fatten up those law books some more too. AR here but not there. AR 3 points there but over here its 4 points. Yup that's just what we need. Use their population guestimates to manage it? ......right. We have wild population swings within a single valley .....ha-ha. Most likely that is why the DEC has been dragging its feet over the issue, they have no idea how to adequately manage it.

 

Doc you're being silly. The state is already split with ARs and weapons and even seasons. It's really not that complicated. If you can't understand and read your annual rule book which is mostly unchanged you shouldn't be in the woods*. It's no more evident then with the safe act and the results of the recent election. Look how divided we are.

 

*exception with crossbow regs. those are confusing and were rushed.

[nyantler]

I think that if AR's had been implemented 100 years ago and the DEC was trying to get it changed to a 3" antler rule now... this argument would be the same.. only in reverse... NY hunters are always divided on almost every issue that has to do with deer hunting... it wouldn't matter if the rule was the ultimate for conservation... the truth is very few hunters care a hoot about conservation... in fact, they prefer over population because it means more deer... they don't care about herd health, age structure, improving natural food sources.. just what ever makes it easier for them is what they want... and that's okay... they make up the majority of NY hunters so they will have the loudest voice... that's how things work... but we are slowly seeing a push for better age class that wasn't around 10-15 years ago... who knows what the future brings... I like the fact that many more hunters are now passing younger bucks on their own without any law telling them... many of them are younger hunters too... and they are the future of hunting.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Everything is money to you isn't it?  So what would happen in NYS if it became the big buck state that you want it to become(not like it will ever happen)?? Instead of having thousands of people who can enjoy hunting for a moderate cost, you want only a few to be able to enjoy it at top dollar so people like you can get their cut from it?  That is BS right there, and discounts any statements you make around here. The DEC surely wouldn't benefit from having this state be a trophy mecca.  Yeah, maybe they could sell non-resident tags at higher cost, but what good would that do when thousands of other residents hunters would be giving up the sport and they would lose all those license fees?  I tell you, out of all the people on this site your ideas have got to be the most convoluted of anyones.

Ahh Surprise,Surprise..Good ole Steve.. So you are that lost that you dont believe that hunting is already money driven. Most Ny hunters did not and will not give up hunting because of Ar being put in place. Most of todays hunters are driven by bone plain and simple. Food plots,bait buying land, you name it, all in the name of the mighty antlers.

 You always complain when this is brought up and money is involved, well sorry if you cant play, and you keep bringing up..My Cut! Now can you please tell me how i will see a cut if Ny is made into a trophy state?  Why did i just bite off my part of a 35 grand camp in Pike Ny when i have 750 acres out my back door in Jefferson Cty..So i can chase trophy whitetails in the bowels of Letchworrth. Where does that money go? How about the taxes? Tell me what the mom and pop store in Castile thought when we bought 4 grand worth of pellet stoves? Where did that money go all in the name of antlers? 

If Ny state became a trophy state they would sell many more Non resident tags at a higher price and all the spending that those hunters would do while here.Resident tags would not increase and even if they did hunters would still pay to play. How many hunters that you know take trips out of state in search of antlers. Iowa,illy,Kansas ? I know many and thats because they cant find it here at home.

 

I am going to write a letter to my buddy Andy and fill him in on a little secret that will make him famous. Now that he has cleaned the streets of those child killing weapons i am going to show him how to be the most popular person in sportsmens eyes in a few short years. I am going to tell him how us deer farmers can release our unwanted 300 inch blood line does out into the wild and let them do their thing. With a little forced hands and a few years he would be the smartest Gov.ever. 

 

Look at the top 5 states in the record books. Funny how they are also some of the biggest deer farming states also.

[dszymo]

^{most hunter are not bone driven stats will show most are weekend warriors at best, sure there are the ten fifteen percent  that are hard core.  The price has been driven up  by  the  "horn      'hunter. the largest population of hunters in ny  go hunting to get away and have a good time.}

[steve863]

I am going to write a letter to my buddy Andy and fill him in on a little secret that will make him famous. Now that he has cleaned the streets of those child killing weapons i am going to show him how to be the most popular person in sportsmens eyes in a few short years. I am going to tell him how us deer farmers can release our unwanted 300 inch blood line does out into the wild and let them do their thing. With a little forced hands and a few years he would be the smartest Gov.ever.

Look at the top 5 states in the record books. Funny how they are also some of the biggest deer farming states also.

You go right ahead and write Andy about your great idea of releasing your mutant deer into the wild! LOL

Man, you just keep coming up with doozies each and every post. You and Andy will make a terrific team. The Abbott and Costello of the conservation world!! LOL

[nyantler]

The "not bone driven" hunter if presented with a choice between two deer standing in front of him a doe and a 150 class buck will pick the buck every time... just because a hunter can't kill a buck doesn't mean he doesn't want to... and just because some of us choose to hunt big bucks doesn't mean we don't like hunting for antlerless deer as well... it's just a choice for some of us, just like killing smaller bucks is a choice for others... big buck hunting for me is my chance to get away and have a good time. I just don't see how horn hunting drives up the price of anything. In fact, I would think that all the fancy gear, scents, blinds, treestands, four wheelers and other unnecessary junk that the weekend warrior needs to gather is more expensive than the clothes on my back and a weapon that I carry. Sorry, but I just don't see your point.

 

That's a nice buck in that avatar of yours by the way... I'm guessing by your post that you must have been disappointed that the deer had antlers.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

^{most hunter are not bone driven stats will show most are weekend warriors at best, sure there are the ten fifteen percent  that are hard core.  The price has been driven up  by  the  "horn      'hunter. the largest population of hunters in ny  go hunting to get away and have a good time.}

So you are telling me that those weekend warriors are not out after the biggest buck in their area? We all are in for the good time but if you get them to tell the truth they will tell you they are after a monster but will settle for a smaller one. the real trophy hunter will eat tag soup before killing a young buck  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

You go right ahead and write Andy about your great idea of releasing your mutant deer into the wild! LOL

Man, you just keep coming up with doozies each and every post. You and Andy will make a terrific team. The Abbott and Costello of the conservation world!! LOL

Point is that its proven daily that big whitetails are a huge selling point and states and people living in those states can do huge things with a DEC or DNR that knows how to manage those animals. We need AR,Shorter gun seasons, 1 buck per hunter per year and manditory check in stations with all unused tags mailed back in. Then we may have the start of a good deer hunting state!

[nyantler]

Some of us big buck hunters don't hunt for the trophy, but rather for the challenge... the greater the challenge the better the hunt in my opinion. I guess the trophy would be conquering the challenge. I personally don't think small bucks are much of a challenge... although I'm sure they may be for others and for them a trophy... whatever blows your skirt up is good by me... everyone has a different opinion about what is fun for them so that's what they should be doing.

 

The contest in deer hunting should be between the hunter and the deer, not hunter and hunter.

Edited November 15, 2014 by nyantler

[Five Seasons]

So you are telling me that those weekend warriors are not out after the biggest buck in their area? We all are in for the good time but if you get them to tell the truth they will tell you they are after a monster but will settle for a smaller one. the real trophy hunter will eat tag soup before killing a young buck

Well said. I do not have the luxury and time to trophy hunt but have made the decision to only shoot 2.5s. My retired father has eaten tag soup by passing deer most guys would put on the wall.

Everyone wants to shoot the biggest buck they can but knows they'll settle.

I have yet to meet a meat Hunter who passed the buck for the doe with the exception of the guy filling his freezer and passing the young buck.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Belo

[Curmudgeon]

I was speaking to one of my contacts in the Division of Wildlife et. al. yesterday about things unrelated to deer hunting. While we chatted, we compared our opening weekends. He is in an AR unit. I am not. I asked him if he was hearing anything within the agency about expanding mandatory ARs to 4F. He said he did not think we would be seeing any more mandatory ARs in the state. The impression he gave was that DEC currently considers mandatory ARs as only serving the interests of a minority of hunters.

[jjb4900]

I was speaking to one of my contacts in the Division of Wildlife et. al. yesterday about things unrelated to deer hunting. While we chatted, we compared our opening weekends. He is in an AR unit. I am not. I asked him if he was hearing anything within the agency about expanding mandatory ARs to 4F. He said he did not think we would be seeing any more mandatory ARs in the state. The impression he gave was that DEC currently considers mandatory ARs as only serving the interests of a minority of hunters.

too bad not all the people hunting in the AR zones are part of that minority...........did he mention any possibility of that plan being reversed?

[Curmudgeon]

too bad not all the people hunting in the AR zones are part of that minority...........did he mention any possibility of that plan being reversed?

 

We didn't discuss it.

[Doewhacker]

AR's in 4f? One of our places to hunt is in 4F, we see/ track big bucks every year. I see no need for them. The neighbors can't kill all the bucks so I don't worry about what they kill.

[Curmudgeon]

AR's in 4f? One of our places to hunt is in 4F, we see/ track big bucks every year. I see no need for them. The neighbors can't kill all the bucks so I don't worry about what they kill.

 

I was on the recent Citizens Task Force for 4F. While the deer population is too high overall, the unit is too big. You can find extreme differences across the unit.

 

[Doewhacker]

I was on the recent Citizens Task Force for 4F. While the deer population is too high overall, the unit is too big. You can find extreme differences across the unit.

That's for sure, we see plenty of bucks compared to doe, but our area seems like it has been down for many years in total population.

We hunt just outside of Richmondville, how about you?

[bubba]

I do not see how you think saving year old bucks is good when quite a few get shot and have doe tags put on them before they even get a first set of antlers.  How many more bucks would we have to become big racks. But the 30 pounds of meat is worth it I guess,  Kind of like saying kill them as fawns,is ok  but not as a spike or a crotch horn, seems hypocritical to me.  

 

I know the old argument there was no way to  tell, but an animal size restriction makes more sense to me.  But again shooting fawns is easier.  Plus if people had to take the time to look a deer over to be sure it was not a button buck or doe fawn, I bet the incidents of people getting shot and shot at would drop.  Brown is down is dangerous.