Do coyote and crow contests tarnish hunters' image?

[virgil]

You are an elitist because you are suggesting that there might be things that we could do differently, possibly for the betterment of the sport and the environment.  How dare you.

For some, any suggestion of a change is an afront to their sense of independence; and they are likely to resist without actually listening to what's being suggested.

[WNYBuckHunter]

How well has this bow to the opinion of the uninformed attitued worked with your gun rights in this state guys?

 

Thats really all I have to say on this.

 

[mike rossi]

Nothing like a fu d raiser that isn't advertised to bring in the funds.

 

That would be pretty tough... What can I say, you leave food on the table you get ants, that doesn't mean don't eat at the table...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

http://www.sullivancountysportsmensfederationny.com/news.html

 

I guess  53 coyotes taken over 3 days in 9 NY counties and 4 states = a "copious" amount of killing.

 

I see their face book page from last year. and it doesn't look bad for this event.

 

https://www.facebook.com/SCCoyotehunt

 

 

Have you guys seen the 2015 Crow down poster? I am curious what is distasteful about it.

 

 

 

[Curmudgeon]

Perception vs. Reality. Perception wins every time.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Perception vs. Reality. Perception wins every time.

So I guess it is YOUR perception that 53 is "copious" amounts of killing?

[Curmudgeon]

Not my perception. Mine doesn't matter. That is the point.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I was using your words, not mine. So your perception does matter to clarify your point of view, motives and credibility.

 

One of the posts on here spoke of how tasteless the Crow Down advertisement was. Can anyone post it. I can't seem to find it.

[Curmudgeon]

My words are presenting an argument to consider: that these contests hurt the image of hunters.

 

My motive is to get people to think, to consider how things might be done differently. Call it Devil's advocacy. Call it what you want. Apparently, some people agree with me.

 

Do I have any credibility? That is for others to decide. Some people consider me an authority "on whatever it is that I do".

 

This is not personal. It is not about you and me. It is about the image of hunters.

[steve863]

When it comes to hunting, I for one prefer to remain in the shadows with non-hunters.  What people don't know about me will never hurt them, nor can they use it against me.  It has been my observation that flaunting things like kills or guns has more of a detrimental effect, than a positive one.   If I kill something, I could care less to share the news with non-hunters.  If they somehow find out about my hunting and want to ask questions, I will answer politely.  Other than that I am not telling anyone anything.

 

 

 

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I agree, it isn't about you and me. I thought we were discussing different points of view. You clam to be playing devils advocate but your wording choice says other wise. You seem to be clearly against them and your wording and phrases are very much in line with the anti's talking points. .  I have never attended of taken part in one of these. I honestly just don't see them as a problem. I believe the ads to promote them need to be tasteful and we should be mindful of pictures posted of the event, but the anti's (as they always do) blow the events out of proportion and as I said, they get the media. Controversy sells.

 

I am curious what you said to that non-hunter that had issue with the coyote contest? I know we have a couple of your hot buttons all rolled up in one thread here (lead and coyote hunting) But how did you respond?  Did you tell her that only 53 were taken last year over a wide area of the state. probably no more than would have been taken if there wasn't a contest?

 

I won't lose a minutes sleep if they have 20 more of these or choose not to have another. I have entered big buck contests but not in years. That always seems to put the whammy on my season every time I do. Lol

[EspressoBuzz]

I clean up the crows I've shot even though I use steel shot. I remind people that coyotes prey on pets and in season hunting doesn't really affect the population numbers. I also remind people that their local farmers like crow and coyote hunters for the most part.

[Mr VJP]

I wonder if non-hunters, or the public in general, would take offense at a rat killing contest.  If NYC had a contest to see who could kill the most rats in one week, would the non-hunters think that was offensive?

 

I think they would.  I don't think the folks affected by too many rats would have a problem with it though, nor do I think I would have any trouble debating anyone over the question of it being a good thing or not.  I don't care how crude the ads promoting it are either.

 

My mother used to sum this up best.  "Offense cannot be given, only taken".  If we are going to allow other people to dictate the terms of any activity they do not even participate in, or contribute funds for, because they are "offended", then we have nobody but ourselves to blame.  If only I could get everything that offends me banned!

 

Like I said in the beginning of this thread, there are plenty of things, far more important to the future existence and safety of Americans, to be spending their, and our, energy on.  Maybe we just need to point that out to them.

 

[Lawdwaz]

I'd like to know how many here have even participated in a crow or coyote hunting contest?

 

Very few I'd guess..........

 

To me it seems as though the OP is just stirring the pot.

[mike rossi]

I was using your words, not mine. So your perception does matter to clarify your point of view, motives and credibility.

 

One of the posts on here spoke of how tasteless the Crow Down advertisement was. Can anyone post it. I can't seem to find it.

 

I don't have it. The antis (actually most were somewhat neutral people) plastered it all over the internet last year when this topic was boiling. They didn't like it. A rough description would be cartoon-like drawings of dead or dying crows  (various stages of leg stiffness). The name alone "crow down" no doubt irritated them as well. These things throw gas on the fire and are used as propaganda props for them to pass around.

[Doc]

Doc,

 

All i see is words like "at risk" "target" "isn't over". Nothing new.

Don't bury your head in the sand. Anti-hunters organizations are making headway. It took a bear mauling to get New Jersey to undo the bear season ban that antis pushed for and eventually passed. And it looks like California will never undo their Mountain lion hunting ban. And each one of the "at risk" headlines represents a long and costly fight that hunting advocacy groups have to spend their money on in a fight to maintain the hunting rights that we do have, and not always a successful fight. I also believe that a lot of the reason for hunter numbers being in decline is the cultural challenges that these groups have successfully mounted. So the most dangerous thing that we can do is to belittle the gains that these people have made and continue to make. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. But for gosh sake don't turn your back on them with false confidence.

[nyantler]

When it comes to hunting, I for one prefer to remain in the shadows with non-hunters.  What people don't know about me will never hurt them, nor can they use it against me.  It has been my observation that flaunting things like kills or guns has more of a detrimental effect, than a positive one.   If I kill something, I could care less to share the news with non-hunters.  If they somehow find out about my hunting and want to ask questions, I will answer politely.  Other than that I am not telling anyone anything.

 

I like the in your face approach... being quiet is exactly what anyone against hunting likes from hunters... they like being the only ones being heard and seen... your approach plays right into their plan... they like having the podium with no contention... I like when my neighbors see me with hunting clothes and my gun... gets across right away who I am and where I stand on the subject. But I do understand that some don't have the balls to stand up for what they believe... we're all different.

[Mr VJP]

Since this thread is asking if contests hurt the image of hunters, let me ask this:

 

What image have hunters had for the last few decades in this country, how did they get it and why did they let it happen?

 

Answer:  Hunters are blood thirsty killers.  This perception was falsely applied to them by anti hunting propaganda organizations with an agenda.  Hunters ignored the propaganda rather than uniting and going on a counter attack to set the record straight in the eyes of the general public.

 

Sure there are some folks that may be scum in the woods, but should the whole hunting community be tarred with the same brush?  America doesn't allow other groups of minorities to be generalized like that.  Why does it accept it regarding hunters and gun owners?

 

Think about it.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Since this thread is asking if contests hurt the image of hunters, let me ask this:

What image have hunters had for the last few decades in this country, how did they get it and why did they let it happen?

Answer: Hunters are blood thirsty killers. This perception was falsely applied to them by anti hunting propaganda organizations with an agenda. Hunters ignored the propaganda rather than uniting and going on a counter attack to set the record straight in the eyes of the general public.

Sure there are some folks that may be scum in the woods, but should the whole hunting community be tarred with the same brush? America doesn't allow other groups of minorities to be generalized like that. Why does it accept it regarding hunters and gun owners?

Think about it.

Simple. Easy targets that are generally quiet and most carry guns.

[mike rossi]

Since this thread is asking if contests hurt the image of hunters, let me ask this:

 

What image have hunters had for the last few decades in this country, how did they get it and why did they let it happen?

 

Answer:  Hunters are blood thirsty killers.  This perception was falsely applied to them by anti hunting propaganda organizations with an agenda.  Hunters ignored the propaganda rather than uniting and going on a counter attack to set the record straight in the eyes of the general public.

 

Sure there are some folks that may be scum in the woods, but should the whole hunting community be tarred with the same brush?  America doesn't allow other groups of minorities to be generalized like that.  Why does it accept it regarding hunters and gun owners?

 

Think about it.

 

In post 67, I described an advertisement used by HUNTERS for a contest. Do you think that advertisement reinforces the image of blood thirsty killers that you speak of?  

[mike rossi]

This is about the senate sponsor of the bill to ban contests. We have discussed him at length. He is also on the senate environmental conservation committee. This is one of the smaller groups that have him in his pocket. I chose group because its name is very explicit.

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/NYC-Animal-Advocates-for-Tony-Avella-for-New-York-State-Senate/134401396609613

[Curmudgeon]

Since this thread is asking if contests hurt the image of hunters, let me ask this:

 

What image have hunters had for the last few decades in this country, how did they get it and why did they let it happen?

 

Answer:  Hunters are blood thirsty killers.  This perception was falsely applied to them by anti hunting propaganda organizations with an agenda.  Hunters ignored the propaganda rather than uniting and going on a counter attack to set the record straight in the eyes of the general public.

 

Sure there are some folks that may be scum in the woods, but should the whole hunting community be tarred with the same brush?  America doesn't allow other groups of minorities to be generalized like that.  Why does it accept it regarding hunters and gun owners?

 

Think about it.

 

I'm glad this stopped being about me (mostly). I am more than willing to be a lightning rod but it doesn't help the discussion.

 

I agree with nyantler. Hunters need to be ambassadors. For those who raised questions how I interact with non-hunters, I could get someone who has heard me speak in public weigh in if you want.

 

Re the quote above: Hunters had a reputation for preserving species and habitat. How did that get lost?

 

I do have a fair amount of political experience. A skill I have found helpful is being able to (try to) think like those with whom you disagree. Understanding them gives you insight into how to craft a message. Granted, I am not doing that in this thread. I am talking to you like family - which you are. The reason I bring this up is to address VJP's question.

 

Ted Nugent has also been a lightning rod - one that has promoted the "blood thirsty killer" persona. (Note: I have purchased Ted's non-lead ammo so let's not return to me).

 

Think about what an educated, urban, non-hunting person knows. They can't understand wanting to kill anything - except maybe rats. They certainly don't understand the antler quest. They do understand economics and possibly ecology: food for the rural poor; car accidents; farm impacts; forest impacts; the loss of many species. This makes them receptive to deer hunting. For conservationists who are not hunters, controlling deer numbers is an important concern. Deer impact a host of other species. These people are our natural allies. They need us to control deer numbers. In a separate thread, I offered to help initiate an effort to open Harriman Park to bow hunting. (I do have a soft spot for quixotic ventures.)  

 

These urban dwellers and common non-hunters don't understand predator hunting - unless they can be convinced it impacts people, e.g. pets being eaten, farmers in trouble. They don't understand crow hunting - unless they live in a place with a massive winter roost. Advertising these things - sometimes tastelessly - does us no good.

 

Some of you may not be aware that a whole new generation of hunters is coming. People who object to the industrial food industry. People who want to be connected to where their food comes from. People who are known as "foodies" - a somewhat ridiculous term. This includes a number of young women. These are educated people. This group was not raised like most of us. It would be valuable to understand their sensibilities and not offend them. It would be helpful if everyone read The Omnivore's Dilemma to understand where these new hunters are coming from.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[steve863]

I'm glad this stopped being about me (mostly). I am more than willing to be a lightning rod but it doesn't help the discussion.

 

I agree with nyantler. Hunters need to be ambassadors. For those who raised questions how I interact with non-hunters, I could get someone who has heard me speak in public weigh in if you want.

 

Re the quote above: Hunters had a reputation for preserving species and habitat. How did that get lost?

 

I do have a fair amount of political experience. A skill I have found helpful is being able to (try to) think like those with whom you disagree. Understanding them gives you insight into how to craft a message. Granted, I am not doing that in this thread. I am talking to you like family - which you are. The reason I bring this up is to address VJP's question.

 

Ted Nugent has also been a lightning rod - one that has promoted the "blood thirsty killer" persona. (Note: I have purchased Ted's non-lead ammo so let's not return to me).

 

Think about what an educated, urban, non-hunting person knows. They can't understand wanting to kill anything - except maybe rats. They certainly don't understand the antler quest. They do understand economics and possibly ecology: food for the rural poor; car accidents; farm impacts; forest impacts; the loss of many species. This makes them receptive to deer hunting. For conservationists who are not hunters, controlling deer numbers is an important concern. Deer impact a host of other species. These people are our natural allies. They need us to control deer numbers. In a separate thread, I offered to help initiate an effort to open Harriman Park to bow hunting. (I do have a soft spot for quixotic ventures.)  

 

These urban dwellers and common non-hunters don't understand predator hunting - unless they can be convinced it impacts people, e.g. pets being eaten, farmers in trouble. They don't understand crow hunting - unless they live in a place with a massive winter roost. Advertising these things - sometimes tastelessly - does us no good.

 

Some of you may not be aware that a whole new generation of hunters is coming. People who object to the industrial food industry. People who want to be connected to where their food comes from. People who are known as "foodies" - a somewhat ridiculous term. This includes a number of young women. These are educated people. This group was not raised like most of us. It would be valuable to understand their sensibilities and not offend them. It would be helpful if everyone read The Omnivore's Dilemma to understand where these new hunters are coming from.

 

Really good post.  I wouldn't disagree about hunters being ambassadors, but to me they need to be POSITIVE ambassadors.  Some people want to be "in your face" about it, like Ted Nugent and NYAntler.  In my opinion those type of attitudes don't work with non-hunters.  How many pickup trucks do I see riding down the road with hunting stickers on their windshields and then of course there's the steel balls hanging from the hitch in the back.  Is that a positive image of hunters and hunting?  I don't think so.  For every one positive ambassador out there, there's probably ten that are messing things up for us in one way or the other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Five Seasons]

If you choose not to, then don't

 

I'm a pretty big believer in not intoducing legislation that protects a few idiots from themselves or those which consequences do not affect others (like helmet laws for example). Lead shot is not one of those regulations. It does affect others. I will admit I do not do a lot of bird hunting, but do head out a few times a year. For turkey I use Hevi-13.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Really good post.  I wouldn't disagree about hunters being ambassadors, but to me they need to be POSITIVE ambassadors.  Some people want to be "in your face" about it, like Ted Nugent and NYAntler.  In my opinion those type of attitudes don't work with non-hunters.  How many pickup trucks do I see riding down the road with hunting stickers on their windshields and then of course there's the steel balls hanging from the hitch in the back.  Is that a positive image of hunters and hunting?  I don't think so.  For every one positive ambassador out there, there's probably ten that are messing things up for us in one way or the other.

I don't think we need to be in their face but the time is gone for being silent. Efforts need to be made that help the NON's understand what we do and why we do it. That will require effort and tact.

 

The deck is stacked against us, especially with the media. The true Anti's need to be taken head on. Our silence and thinking that it won't effect us or believing they will stop if they get their way, is the wrong approach.