17 year old kills booner... ethical?

[jjb4900]

putting all legalities of ownership and whatnot aside........based on the article, this kill is nothing to be overly proud of and not much of an accomplishment in my book........the kid KNEW it was an escaped deer from a farm.

Edited December 22, 2014 by jjb4900

[moog5050]

I understand your point Belo, but I am not sure that would be necessary to recover a pen raised deer.  That would have to be a detail worked out though.  In then end, I am not interested in taking someone else's property even if it accidentally wandered on to my land.  Might be no different than a neighbor's cow.

[landtracdeerhunter]

I would have told them about it but at the same time I am not sure if I would want them running all over my land during deer season to retrieve it and mess up my year.Dammed if you do,dammed if you don't sort of thing.

 

I would of for a cut. Sweet business deal!

 

[jrm]

how do you fine a hunter who didn't know it was an escaped pen raised deer?

 

the kid knew it was escaped.....I'm pretty sure that's very clear in the story.

 

 

It does pose an interesting question. 

 

If it is livestock, as VJP suggested, then there are penalties for that. However, how to you prove that the hunter not only knew about an escaped deer, but knew that this is the same one? After all, it is legal to hunt deer and how do you determine this is the exact buck that escaped?

 

Along the same lines - if deer are considered "livestock" in this situation, then how does that reconcile with hunting seasons? If you raise cows or goats, there are no rules about when you can process them. I have horses (livestock) - nothing stopping me from putting one down at anytime.

 

Classifying farm raised deer as livestock would theoretically allow hunting those deer 365 days/year.  

[jjb4900]

It does pose an interesting question. 

 

If it is livestock, as VJP suggested, then there are penalties for that. However, how to you prove that the hunter not only knew about an escaped deer, but knew that this is the same one? After all, it is legal to hunt deer and how do you determine this is the exact buck that escaped?

 

Along the same lines - if deer are considered "livestock" in this situation, then how does that reconcile with hunting seasons? If you raise cows or goats, there are no rules about when you can process them. I have horses (livestock) - nothing stopping me from putting one down at anytime.

 

Classifying farm raised deer as livestock would theoretically allow hunting those deer 365 days/year.  

The kid put it in print that he knew the deer was one from the farm and rather than notify them he decided to hunt it...................how funny would it be if what he knowingly admitted to set him up for some type of lawsuit from the deer owner?

[wildcat junkie]

I'm still thinking stillwater needs his permission to retrieve it and he's not obligated to let them on. Honestly, I would let them know. I would then still hunt it. Maybe if they offered some money for it then it would change.

Since the deer in question would also be considered Stillwater's "livestock", they could be held responsible for any damages, deaths or injuries that resulted from that deer being involved in an automobile/deer accident.

 

In a sense, the kid did them a service.

[phade]

The high fence place had three bucks let loose when a tree fell on the fence...so it wasn't the only one that was shot. All three were based on the reports I read.

 

So, to single out the kid seems like a bit of crappy reporting for this article.

[jjb4900]

The high fence place had three bucks let loose when a tree fell on the fence...so it wasn't the only one that was shot. All three were based on the reports I read.

 

So, to single out the kid seems like a bit of crappy reporting for this article.

maybe the other two hunters took it for what it was and were smart enough to keep their mouths shut.........

[wildcat junkie]

So if a farmer's prize bull or pig escapes into the woods, he no longer owns it or is responsible?

 

Is there a distinction made here for deer, and if so, what is the reasoning?

 

Just curios right now.

I would think that Stillwater still owns the "livestock" & they are still responsible.

 

It was raised behind a fence so it isn't a game animal that belongs to the state or the citizens thereof.

[jrm]

So if a farmer's prize bull or pig escapes into the woods, he no longer owns it or is responsible?

 

Is there a distinction made here for deer, and if so, what is the reasoning?

 

Just curios right now.

 

That's what I am curious to learn.

 

Can/are deer classified as wildlife and livestock depending on their method of birth.  As livestock, an entirely different set of legal rules apply. There would have to be distinctions in the law to account for all the legal problems it would cause.

 

Once that "livestock" escapes into the wild - mixing with indigenous wildlife of the same species - at what point, if any, does it cease being livestock and become wildlife.

 

Recently there was talk about classifying horses as pets instead of livestock. I was involved in this through come local organizations. Many horse owners (who treat their horses like pets) were blown away when they learned about the negative ramifications of such a change. It is amazing how many rules there are and how much is affected by a change in classification.

 

Does anyone know for a fact how the livestock vs wildlife designation applies to this in NY?

[wildcat junkie]

If your livestock (horse) that is running loose is involved in an interaction with a motor vehicle, you are responsible for the damages.

 

The same applies to a pet. (dog) One of the local farmers' dogs ran out in front of me. I was able to brake enough so that injury to the dog was minimal. It took the brunt of the impact on the shoulder. There was considerable damage to the car & his homeowners insuarnce promptly wrote me a check.

 

I don't see it being different for a deer that was raised behind a fence from stock that was either imported or if it was raised from birth. The "preserve" owns the animal thus they do not need to abide by game laws.

Edited December 22, 2014 by wildcat junkie

[wildcat junkie]

I wonder if it came with an ear tag.......

With $19,900.00 marked on it?

[jrm]

If your livestock (horse) that is running loose is involved in an interaction with a motor vehicle, you are responsible for the damages.

 

The same applies to a pet. (dog) One of the local farmers' dogs ran out in front of me. I was able to brake enough so that injury to the dog was minimal. It took the brunt of the impact on the shoulder. There was considerable damage to the car & his homeowners insuarnce promptly wrote me a check.

 

I don't see it being different for a deer that was raised behind a fence from stock that was either imported or faised from birth. The "preserve" owns the animal thus they do not need to abide by game laws.

 

 

I agree 100%,  *IF* that deer is "owned" by the farm under NYS law. Liability is one of the important considerations when animals are classified as wildlife, livestock or domestic pets.

 

 

*edited to add* : your liability is decreased or eliminated if you took reasonable measures to contain the livestock. A fallen tree that crushes a fence would pretty much have you covered. There is considerably less liability exposure for "livestock" as opposed to "pets" - even in NYS.

 

 

I honestly don't know the answer and am only asking the question out of curiosity.

 

True, game laws don't apply to livestock. By that reasoning, deer (or any animal) on a preserve could be hunted all year long. Could be hunted at night with searchlights. Lot's of implications there. If that were the case, I would think _someone_ is doing it... opening weekend one week before the real opening weekend. (Maybe someone is doing that)?  Just seems it isn't as simple as that.

 

Doesn't one of the regular posters on this forum own/manage/run a NY hunting preserve? Maybe they could weigh in with some verified fact?

Edited December 22, 2014 by jrm

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 

Classifying farm raised deer as livestock would theoretically allow hunting those deer 365 days/year.  

I would think No different that pheasants on a preserve. They are under preserve rules until they fly off the property then it reverts to normal game regulations. Pheasants can be taken on the preserves for a longer season and without any sex restrictions. Technically if a wild bird wandered in there is could be taken on preserve rules. That whitetail would have been legally safe if the season had not been open around the farm. I would think that if it were a species that didn't naturally occur in the area it would be another story. Anyone know what happened to those guys that shot the escaped Elk a while back?

[Five Seasons]

my point is, the kid knew the deer was a pen raised animal that escaped its enclosure and in all reality belonged to someone else.......his choice is to kill it and put it out it as some type of accomplishment.....is it really much different then your dog getting out of your yard and someone taking it?

 

A dog is a pet and not a hunted species. Now I agree, it's not much of an accomplishment. The deer was probably pretty tame having never had to survive in the wild.

 

I think it would be considered livestock jrm.

 

except i'm not going to shoot a cow if I saw one in the woods. It's just not fair for a hunter to have to know what's pen raised and what isn't.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

except i'm not going to shoot a cow if I saw one in the woods. .

Dairy cow or beef? Nice big ol' plump Angus strolls by....well I might have to think about it. lol

[growalot]

Well...It certainly should have taught the game farm a lesson...take care of the animals you are licensed by your state to have and sell..If they didn't know it was loose they should have...since he'd been gone long enough to get caught on ppls game cameras..it was an occomplishment because how any adults could hold it together for a good CLEAN KILL when faced with a buck of that size...and he's 17....and he wasn't trying to hide or embellish anything...he said he would not remove the ear tag it had in mounting it.

[Five Seasons]

The high fence place had three bucks let loose when a tree fell on the fence...so it wasn't the only one that was shot. All three were based on the reports I read.

 

So, to single out the kid seems like a bit of crappy reporting for this article.

 

 

So if a farmer's prize bull or pig escapes into the woods, he no longer owns it or is responsible?

 

Is there a distinction made here for deer, and if so, what is the reasoning?

 

Just curios right now.

 

I work in risk management. Insurance rates are all based on what you do to minimize risk. Chances are both the deer and prized bull are insured. If you have great security you pay less of a premium. If you haven't done a good job maintaining your fence line or sweeping your fence line to prevent this than your premiums might be higher. It's the same with any homeowners or car insurance. The more you invest the less you pay.

 

furthermore, should you choose to gamble and not purchase insurance (if not required) then you're SOL when $20k + runs out on you.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Belo

[growalot]

I suppose....No different than shooting a bison ahey?

[Taylormike]

It's a lot easier for me to answer this question sitting in my office at work.  Put yourself in this young man's shoes and well I'm guessing my answer would be a whole lot different.

 

As I do not applaud his actions and feel jubilant there is nothing really wrong with it.  Is he in his right mind going to pass this deer when he finally shows.  I chalk it up to sometimes we're luck and sometime not. 

 

This 17 year was lucky and I feel he does not have to pay any retributions for his actions.  However, one can say he is doomed because he will never have another opportunity at harvesting such a rare specimen his entire life...

 

I don't have a problem with it...

[papabear]

if the deer was on state land free no longer in the care of its owner its a free deer and he had every right to take that deer 

I would have have done it my self if they wated the deer back they should have made a serch party call there ECO and put up a rewared they did nothing so the deer was state owned and free for the taking 

i did like the part were he said he would leve the tag in the ear 

[wooly]

Cool- sounds like he put a good shot on it during legal shooting hours..... not everyone here can say THAT looking back on their seasons.

 

[phade]

maybe the other two hunters took it for what it was and were smart enough to keep their mouths shut.........

 

Their pics are all over the internet too.

 

These bucks were so big, people took pics of them and posted online, seeing them driving on the roads home.

[phade]

I have to assume the outfitter wanted those deer dead. The policy was paid out most likely, and there's nothing good that could come from these deer being free. As said, if one were to hit a car...liability. They probably were hopeful that they were shot by hunters if not recovered alive and well, which was probably low odds. This might be the most realistic best case scenario for everyone.

 

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Their pics are all over the internet too.

 

These bucks were so big, people took pics of them and posted online, seeing them driving on the roads home.

Those other 2 bucks were shot, caped and scored for the record books. Taken in ohio,bucks that size, they will not raise a red flag and B&C will be none the wiser so yes i would dare say there are a few farm raised bucks that adorn their glossy pages,  even though they say they will not accept them.

 

Deer behind fence are livestock. I believe the price was stretched a bit but my bucks that size only fetch 10-12 grand tops.  The kid had every right to kill that buck but the smart move would have been to let that boy breed to the heavens. Had he not wanted the thrill of taking a buck that big he very well could have made himself a few grand real easy but i guess the kill was better or the thought of getting it back to the owners never entered his mind. There must have been enough does in that area to keep him around to get trail cam pics.