Get your vaseline ready NY! Its here...

[stubby68]

                                      Belo try this with your numbers. Bow stamps 46,944 add the 116k because the super sportsmen came with a bow stamp that means bow hunter bought them. That makes 162944 bow stamps. Bow stamps were bought by guys who boughtb the small big game and then had to buy the bow stamp to bow hunt so take 46944 off the number of big small game number that were bought for bow hunting. 103k minus 46,944 is 56,056 that would be gun hunters . no wya to know how many small big game were bought by guys who small game hunt only so the number used for deer could be much lower. we will stick with the 56,056. That makes 206,056 possable gun hunters. a difference of 43,112 that would be lower if you knew the number of smal big game used only for small game. not realy that big a difference when you look at all who hune in this state. Also did those numbers show out of state tags sold. That would chang things as well. could be closer could be further apart

 

[orion]

First I can't see how this plan will work and I'm not for it.

 

But bowhunters don't shoot does. the percentages are lower.

 

The DEC is giving bowhunters a chance to prove them wrong, giving them a chance before they bring in muzzleloaders for a two week season.

 

AND HOW DO BOWHUNTERS STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND HANDLE IT??

All there is is whining and complaining and I'm not even going to hunt comments!!!

 

Bowhunters constantly refusing to shoot does has led to this, and its going to get worse!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Stubby. The permit allocation numbers are NOT the desires take numbers. They factor in that not every hunter is successful and issue more permits than they believe will be filled. They just never divulge their mystery formula

[phade]

Their needs are stated in buck take per square mile and dmp quota fill per square mile... how they come up with numbers with no mandatory check is just a swag

Where in their dmp allocation this year or in their statement does ir say how many does need to be killed?

Objective is an objective, not a baseline goal. Thats a substantial difference and basic Business 101 knowledge. For bucks, if its 1.4 per sq mi, but actuality is 1.2, it might not meet the ideal objective yet remain within their window of acceptance. We have zero idea of stated targets nor their acceptable basement number.

The DEC has not stated what needs to be harvested as a goal. There is no way for bowhunters or any group to meet a goal where the expectation is not set.

Stubby if they issue 10k permits in a wmu that is not what they set as their goal. It does not mean they want 10k filled.

Edited August 7, 2015 by phade

[G-Man]

Wmu issues 100000 tags for dmu , sucess rate by their swag is 30 %, so 33000 doe in an area, not hard to figure out, the areas they did this in have more permits than hunters taking permits, so if they wanted 33000 take n they. HaND out 100000, but only 60000 are taken by hunters, so knowing 30 % kill they won't reach their numerous goal, but had bow hunters taken the extra permits and filled them at a rate of 40% they would of met target,

problem is most people do not want 5 deer in freezer and only get one or two tags,that is where bow hunter and gun hunters need to step up and shoot doe and donate... but that didn't happen either so force bow hunters to take a doe in first 2 weeks if they want to hunt.... really simple when you look at it

[phade]

Wmu issues 100000 tags for dmu , sucess rate by their swag is 30 %, so 33000 doe in an area, not hard to figure out, the areas they did this in have more permits than hunters taking permits, so if they wanted 33000 take n they. HaND out 100000, but only 60000 are taken by hunters, so knowing 30 % kill they won't reach their numerous goal, but had bow hunters taken the extra permits and filled them at a rate of 40% they would of met target,

problem is most people do not want 5 deer in freezer and only get one or two tags,that is where bow hunter and gun hunters need to step up and shoot doe and donate... but that didn't happen either so force bow hunters to take a doe in first 2 weeks if they want to hunt.... really simple when you look at it

Lol, go ask them that. See if they say that is their baseline. They wont. Know why? Because I have asked Jeremy, Art, and others. There isnt a number to state publicly.

Again, there is no number as a baseline. You dont seem to understand that.

Edited August 7, 2015 by phade

[A Sportsman]

As Stubby points out, bow hunters and gun hunters are largely the same people. Few guys who hunt with a bow do not hunt with a gun. So, I'm terms of deer take, how is it that bowhunters could be pitted against themselves? The dead deer are generally winding up in the same freezer. If a bow hunter shoots more does this year during bow season, as the state wants, that same hunter should theoretically shoot less does during gun. My goal each yr is to put 2 in the freezer. I'll shoot a third sometimes. That's what my family consumes. Whether the deer are shot with a gun or bow is immaterial.

So this talk of punishment or bow hunters not meeting some mysterious Quota seems silly.

Edited August 7, 2015 by A Sportsman

[growalot]

How high minded of some of you..."had bow hunters taken more doe you could have met your #'s" Well let me tell you I went out last year to shoot NOTHING BUT DOE to feed some families and had to resort to shooting a 6pt buck so one old man would :

 1.) Have food for the winter 

 2.) Stop calling in desperation

This was done during the last 2 wks of bow season and I had been out there nearly daily since Oct 1. I'm in a high density area and hunt legally  I plant food every where for them on my 73 acres to compete with farm crops and many other bow hunters..Granted I'm also in a no doe hunting area in terms of land owners and a few resident and non resident trophy hunters.(during bow) I can not do any thing about that and I can not do any thing about the deer changing patterns or as they have been going nocturnal in the fall..It's funny how when doing things legally they don't just line up at a specific time at a specific place and wait for me to put an arrow through their lungs at close range

Now I'm pretty sure I am not the only one that experiences rough seasons that was one...YET a guy  a 1/2 mile down the road on 12 little acres ...surrounded by hunters and ag fields  managed to drop 11 deer the first 2 wks of GUN season.   hhhmmmmm

You bet I'm not going to play along with a bad policy and I am not going to feel bad about it...Yes had I done things illegally and put out little piles of what ever or hunted before and after legal hours, I could have fed all those families  and been very happy... So if they want those doe dead then they need to engage their brains and give us the tools to do so at the times that we can do the most good and NOT try to BLACK MAIL  a specific hunting group...because the more I think about it and read dribble like what I'm referring to ..Well the more ticked off I get. This could end up being a no doe season at all for me...in my home range target area. They can just keep their extra doe tags... BTW " if your not part of the solution your part of the problem" Well all my hunting years I have always been part of the solution and happy to shoot any doe in range and passing many many a young buck. It is the DEC that became part of the problem  when their shoot from the hip policy making took my ability to choose away on my land...but I can and have adapted and again will not be what I consider being black mailed. Go ahead threaten to put ML in bow and have it doe only...I can adapt  and will continue to hunt else where until you wake up.

 

[A Sportsman]

Yes Grow, even in some high density areas a bowhunter can have a rough go of it some years. Bow hunting is hard. It's supposed to hard. Murphy's law was created for bow hunters. Which is one of the reasons we love it.

I would think a bowhunter passing on some does during the first week or 2 of the season while trying to shoot a big buck that they've scouted should be rather inconsequential terms of deer take for the entire season. I usually pass on does for first 10 days or so hoping to surprise a big buck. This year I will likely hunt a little less the first couple weeks. And I'll leave potential big buck stands alone. but I'll still get out and try to take a doe. especially if convenient (cold weather, short drag, have time to butcher, etc.)

[Doc]

http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/102860.html

So here is their statment. Again, what are their needs? They just say they are not being met in the antlerless only units. Not on single freaking number to hit. Not one.

You are not meeting our goal but we are not stating what it is.

There I just finished reading their statement. I can only say that the lying sacks of crap have outdone themselves in terms of destroying their credibility. I have just one very simple question that if properly answered would totally change my mind about this new rule.

 

If they are not flat-out lying about the severity of the population situation and their super-concern about the excessive deer population, why did they chose to make their remedial actions apply only in the most inefficient season that they could find?

 

Yeah, how seriously can you take their whining when they passed over actions during gun seasons and put the entire corrective management of deer populations on the backs of bowhunters, the least capable to have the needed impacts that they claim they need. It's a simple question that no one seems to want to answer.

[fasteddie]

Well , to add fuel to the fire , my sons and I take doe during the summer with Crop Damage Permits . I got my foot in the door when a Farmer was interviewed on tv complaining out losing thousands of dollars in crops due to deer . Many hunters look down on this but the farmer doesn't get enough deer taken . There are a few other guys who also take deer off of the guys farm fields . 

[growalot]

See ,  the more I think on this the more spiteful I feel...They had so many other options available that they, I'm sure, just didn't bother considering.  As Phade said they have NO #'s, no set goal...They could have made it a set number of deer...go fill those tags  report them immediately and you can have what ever time left to hunt "either or" that first two weeks...They could have said ,well we set up special doe only in these areas but also for that two weeks you can bait in those areas only and BTW here are the number of tags we need filled. There doesn't seem to be any concerns from the DEC when sharp shooters bait the deer in. No CWD out breaks when municipalities allow this in their city limits. Just report them immediately . They could,Belo are you reading this, changed the time for those areas. Half hour before and after sunset during that two weeks. Yes I said that for The chances of me being shot in low light on my land by a arrow is MUCH less than by a bullet..remember I was nearly shot out of a 16ft tree stand 20 mins before season by a slug...

 

Yes they had so so many options and they chose the absolute least productive.

[orion]

I always hear about how bowhunters should be let in state parks, municipalities  etc to help with the deer populations. How this would solve the problem.

 

No all of a sudden its completely illogical and impossible for bowhunters to control the population.

 

Here's a thought,  go out during bow season and shoot as many doe as possible, then don't shoot any in gun season! Show the DEC that bowhunters can do it. Bring the % of antlers deer taken by bow somewhere even close to what gun hunters take

 

If not it will go to the guns  unfortunately the DEC will give them two weeks of prime archery season to do it.

 

We asked to use DMPS in archery season and got it now use them!

[dbHunterNY]

Looks like I can now use up to 4 DMAPs instead of 2 in addition to my 4 DMPs, an either sex and another antlerless.

 

definitely a lot. 

 

we've been telling our hunters to use DMAPs first over other tags.  figure it gives DEC a better idea of what's going on and we know they'll all get reported.  I've heard the three year deal will be them giving you the balance of what you didn't fill and then once the tag is more than 3 years old it'll be no good.  It'll make our lives crazy ensuring we keep track of hundreds of them and impress the need on hunters to not loose them.  I'm sure it saves DEC money as they're not producing so many though, so I'm ok with it.

[Huntscreek]

Let me1st say the Title to this Thread should not read visaline  because there not going to make it comfy. I don't know where they are getting there numbers because to go by regions is stupid, In my area deer have been on the decline period, Hunting pressure brown its down thinking, No management practice at all. Its left up to each of us. I've hunted this area since I was a kid and there are just Less deer now, like the 70s. Now I hear it the rough winter Upstate NY winters have always been consistent, but Management has been screwed all to hell. I'd say NO doe kill in my area and 1 tag for buck until it bounces back. Oh and stop the DMAPs because there is no need for them. Over 700 trail cam pic's NOT 1 deer on land that use to hold many, just last year. You can't kill what's not there! DEC or We need to manage our own smaller areas than a whole dam region.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Huntscreek

[Doc]

Well, I love hunting with the bow too. If you look at the NZ ( which most of you don't ) you will see that you can use a ML to take a doe in most areas, but not a bow or shotgun or rifle! That irritates me too, and I have said so.

These changes aren't a war on bow hunters. It's effective across all the seasons in the SZ.

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/28605.html

 

I have seen hunters making petitions here and other sites for fall turkey season and dove hunting, but I didn't find one petition to try and stop this from happening to deer hunting.

Now, you are looking over a puddle of spilled milk and wondering what happened and why. That's what makes no sense! Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

 

No one in this state will ever be happy about any hunting change. 

And of course there are always those that get absolutely giddy about somebody else being screwed.

 

Oh and by the way, I am looking at those special cross-hatched areas and the way I see it bowhunters and muzzleloaders are the only ones affected. I don't see any changes to the gun season where some real impact to the problem could be seen. So I haven't a clue what you are talking about as far as it being "effective across all seasons in the southern zone".

[growalot]

I only look down my nose when it is a drop and leave or as what happened on one farm out here...gut shoot and let them run out of the fields and leave..But here the farmers lease all there lands to hunters...I'm sure they have plenty of guys that could shoot and may shoot..Funny though and I thought about this just last week All this soybean and alfalfa and clover...I NEVER see deer damage and I never see deer in those fields EVER where I do see them is in the surrounding hay fields and in horse and beef cattle pastures both day and evening( I do not spot). Evening to me is dusk so they must be putting something on those crops to deter damage, even the corn next door..my corn will have deer munching it right up until it is 4 ft tall and then from cob until none is left...this field off my kitchen door...nothing. Now we have plenty of deer because just 60 yrds away I have a newly planted turnip plot and a barren disced area for fall WW and the deer tracks are absolutely everywhere even though there is nothing to eat there.

[Five Seasons]

back in the day, you got one tag that was good for either sex during archery and buck only during the regular season, if you filled it during archery you were done (that changed later on)..........doe tags in most areas had to have 3-5 guys applying for one tag.....usually guys would take turns carrying it until it was filled. I think the multi tag system we have now was began in the early to mid 90's (maybe?) if not later.

 

that still didn't impact gun hunters and has nothing do with holding a kid in your arm. I just didn't understand the reply.

[Five Seasons]

http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/102860.html

So here is their statment. Again, what are their needs? They just say they are not being met in the antlerless only units. Not on single freaking number to hit. Not one.

You are not meeting our goal but we are not stating what it is.

 

not that it will matter, but there is a contact on that page on the top right corner. I say we let them hear it.

[dbHunterNY]

 

 

                                                   ........Phade you keep saying that bow hunters would be willing to kill more does if they gave a number on how many they want killed. You say they never give a number. You are wrong. They give you the numbers every year. When the issue DMPs the issue a set number for areas. If they are giving out 10,000 DMPs then that is there target number. If the issue 5.000 that is there number. When guys get these tags and do not use them because they do not want does killed or those tags are just not filled because of wanting to wait for that big buck then there number is not met. If they have 10,000 permits for an area and only 5,000 are filled then only half there goal was met. By not filling those tags a problem has arose. It is simple. shot the does they give you tags for and you will hit there goal. They are not going after the gun hunter because they have shown they are willing to kill more does then the bow hunter. Bow hunter take my not beable to be what guns is but it could be higher with a little affort. I'm not syaing put population controll on the shoulder of the bow hunter but if a little help was gotten from the bow hunter then it would not have gotten this far with the regs.

 

DEC distributes far more DMPs then their goal is.  They've said they saturate area with DMPs to account for the fact that every year only a portion of them are filled.  So you can't go by DMP allocation and 100% success rate as their target.

[growalot]

 

jjb4900, on 06 Aug 2015 - 7:36 PM, said:

back in the day, you got one tag that was good for either sex during archery and buck only during the regular season, if you filled it during archery you were done (that changed later on)..........doe tags in most areas had to have 3-5 guys applying for one tag.....usually guys would take turns carrying it until it was filled. I think the multi tag system we have now was began in the early to mid 90's (maybe?) if not later.

 

That time was the last time they made sound management decisions... The herd was down and they and the hunters understood the numbers. When the herd started coming back they slowly increased all hunters ability to take a doe then as they continued to rise added more permits per person. That was a different group of DEC personnel..unfortunately as time passed ppl retired and new ppl came in ...then lets face it appointments are made ..it's political. If one were to look at history what % of good appointment decisions do you think we would find? How many directors have we gone through in that last decade?

Edited August 7, 2015 by growalot

[Five Seasons]

                                      Belo try this with your numbers. Bow stamps 46,944 add the 116k because the super sportsmen came with a bow stamp that means bow hunter bought them. That makes 162944 bow stamps. Bow stamps were bought by guys who boughtb the small big game and then had to buy the bow stamp to bow hunt so take 46944 off the number of big small game number that were bought for bow hunting. 103k minus 46,944 is 56,056 that would be gun hunters . no wya to know how many small big game were bought by guys who small game hunt only so the number used for deer could be much lower. we will stick with the 56,056. That makes 206,056 possable gun hunters. a difference of 43,112 that would be lower if you knew the number of smal big game used only for small game. not realy that big a difference when you look at all who hune in this state. Also did those numbers show out of state tags sold. That would chang things as well. could be closer could be further apart

 

 

No Stubby,

 

You can't assume all super sportsman and sportsman are bow hunters. I know plenty that don't mind the money because they know it goes towards conservation. That's why I said assume those no numbers are a wash. Now also, why would you assume that small/big game license sales are just small game hunters when you can specifically buy a small game license? so again, my argument and out of state numbers are valid. There's at least a 1 to 8 ratio of gun to bow hunters

 

                                                           I keep hearing there are not enough bow hunters to get the numbers down. You are right there aren't. Especially when they refuse to shoot does. No one can say this is false because this thread is full of guys and gals who have said they will either not hunt those 2 weeks or will hunt in an area that they can shoot bucks.

 

except most of us have admitted we shoot doe... the issue becomes the moral, ethical and down right sh!tty position the state has put us in when a big buck does walk by. Why stink up the woods the first 2 weeks when the deer are only moving for food and risk blowing a stand when you can hunt during the rut? that's the point of not hunting. Yes, we do want to shoot bucks. There's no secret there. It doesn't mean we're not going to also stack some doe.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Belo

[Five Seasons]

As Stubby points out, bow hunters and gun hunters are largely the same people. Few guys who hunt with a bow do not hunt with a gun. So, I'm terms of deer take, how is it that bowhunters could be pitted against themselves? The dead deer are generally winding up in the same freezer. If a bow hunter shoots more does this year during bow season, as the state wants, that same hunter should theoretically shoot less does during gun. My goal each yr is to put 2 in the freezer. I'll shoot a third sometimes. That's what my family consumes. Whether the deer are shot with a gun or bow is immaterial.

So this talk of punishment or bow hunters not meeting some mysterious Quota seems silly.

 

perfectly said! If Last year I took a doe with a bow, the year before with my mz. I still took a doe. It shouldn't matter with what.

 

Honestly I prefer to take them with a gun. First off, my rage heads are $40 for 3. A dozen of my arrows are $170 and the margin of error during bow is much greater than with gun. Finally, I'd like to keep that breeder doe around during the rut. Doe don't roam, so taking the big breeder a week into bow is one less piece of bait I have for the rut. Taking her during gun or mz doesn't hurt me at all.

 

So lets see.

 

Taking doe with a gun is:

 

More probable of a cleaner kill

Easier because of range and movement

Cheaper

Less likely to impact my goal of harvesting a mature buck

Edited August 7, 2015 by Belo

[Huntscreek]

How much does venison per lb cost a Hunter. An License in State out state, Gas, Food, Time, Gun or Bow, Hunt Camps TAX's Money into NY economy. Trickle down effect. Does the State really think its a good Idea, to mismanage natural resources too. If hunting was not a labor of love, I'd raise beef. Its getting bigger every year that Traveling to hunt in a better managed State is the way to go.

[Five Seasons]

I always hear about how bowhunters should be let in state parks, municipalities  etc to help with the deer populations. How this would solve the problem.

 

No all of a sudden its completely illogical and impossible for bowhunters to control the population.

 

Here's a thought,  go out during bow season and shoot as many doe as possible, then don't shoot any in gun season! Show the DEC that bowhunters can do it. Bring the % of antlers deer taken by bow somewhere even close to what gun hunters take

 

If not it will go to the guns  unfortunately the DEC will give them two weeks of prime archery season to do it.

 

We asked to use DMPS in archery season and got it now use them!

 

letting bow hunters in to the burbs or parks will help control deer where they previously have been allowed to go without any hunting at all. It doesn't solve the problem, but it helps. Additionally, harvesting a deer isn't just a walk in the park. It's expensive and/or time consuming and we all don't need 5 deer in our freezer. Donating is fine, but also takes time and money.

 

And honestly, in 8F the problem isn't the corn fields where we all hunt, it's the burbs where we can't hunt. Check out my thread on suburban deer hunting to help understand how some smarter cities are doing it without impacting the bow hunters.