Get your vaseline ready NY! Its here...

[orion]

Doc,

It's more the 6 week archery season which the antler less take is 30% compared to the 50% in other seasons they want changed.

They obviously feel it is not being utilized to there benefit and want to increase the amount of antler less deer taken during this time. So they are asking/telling bow hunters to shoot more deer or they will be bringing in muzzle loaders to the archery season.

As the responses show in this thread of those who either won't shoot doe or won't even bother to hunt, we can almost bet on having a early muzzle loader season next year.

Belo,

Am I a gun hunter who hates bow hunters because I think they should shoot the a same % of antler less deer as gun hunters do ?

Or am I a selfish bowhunter who doesn't want muzzleloader a into my archery season?

Just maybe I'm someone who understands sometimes you have to do what you don't like to try and preserve what you have.

[Jmythngdmb]

I'm officially convinced that DEC knows this won't work, either will an early mz season. They will resort to doe only or earn a buck during regular season, and all this hoopla is just so they can say they tried.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The_Field_Ager]

So they are asking/telling bow hunters to shoot more deer or they will be bringing in muzzle loaders to the archery season.

 

 

 

Which of course represents total disinterestedness  on the part of DEC in terms of the art of Bow hunting, why people do it, and the emphasis on patience, quiet and short range skill, that invariably requires more time for success versus longer range and more powerful tools. The Dec  clearly does not care about or understand the tradition and point of Bow hunting. It is never going to be a reliable and productive deer execution solution.

 

If you are looking for certainty, bow is not the area to look at. Can you speak to this obvious lack of insight on the part of DEC? 

[dbHunterNY]

This seems perfectly sensible to me. I will never shoot more than 2 deer, because I don't need and can't fit more than 2 in my freezer. I am not much of a trophy hunter. Even if I do get excited by the prospect of that big 10 in my woods passing my stand. End of the day,I will be sure to pack the freezer first and worry about my wall hanging spots last, if at all. If I get my 2 deer in Bow, I don't gun hunt, apart from a boys weekend to the Adirondacks, which has never yielded a kill.

 

Tweaking the antler zones, or throwing extra DMPS at me, won't change the fact that I will never shoot more than 2 deer, unless I see absolutely unassailable evidence that we have too many deer for the environment to carry. And I am seeing the exact opposite of that in my part of 9H.

 

I have been checking cams in my new spot, not too far from our own house. In the last month I have only picked up on 1 very skinny doe with 2 fawns, that seem to be inhabiting an area that is full of large, old rubs. No sign of even yearling Bucks in the area, and this is territory that has not been hunted for years, I am told. It was a very hard winter. We are at high elevation.

 

Things are slightly better on my own property, but camera information is showing bucks to doe at a 4:1 ratio. I am not including fawns. Given what I am seeing, there is no way I am shooting any doe this year, unless gangs of them suddenly wander out of the brush piles.  It might be a lean season as far as the freezer is concerned. We'll see, but right now I have adopted a no doe policy. I won't apply for DMPs.I don't need them. Bow and Gun tags are more than enough for me.

 

right now buck bachelor groups are still relatively together.  which can greatly skew your ratio.  keep checking into the first couple weeks of September once velvet starts to shed and before the hunting season is here.  I definitely agree with you in that no reason to get extra tags if you're not going to fill them.

[Five Seasons]

Anyone else feeling the hot glow of irony here?

 

No. It's 1 single topic. Not 5 cut and paste articles a day about non-hunting subjects.

 

Lets drop it and keep this thread on track.

[wooly]

Maybe all this has nothing to do with controlling the herd at all in these doe only zones.

Perhaps the real intention here was to get more hunters into the unaffected regions where we got plenty of buck and doe for everybody!

A little reverse psychology on the DEC's part would not surprise me especially hearing how many here will be hunting the first two weeks in different unaffected WMU's now.

[Five Seasons]

Or am I a selfish bowhunter who doesn't want muzzleloader a into my archery season?

Just maybe I'm someone who understands sometimes you have to do what you don't like to try and preserve what you have.

 

Maybe you missed the several different posters who made this point. We bow hunters do shoot doe. Some during archery, some during other seasons.

 

When you look at the survey on this site, although it's a very small sample size. It appears there are no "bow only" hunters, and of that group almost all of us shoot doe.

http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/28529-deer-weapon-and-style-survey/

 

So no, it's not a matter of us doing something we do not like. It's a matter of the DEC setting a goal (not telling us what the goal is) and essentially presenting us with an impossible task.

 

How would you like it if your boss gave you a job to do, gave you guidelines on how to do it, but didn't tell you how to finish it or what he would be assessing you on? That's what they're doing. It's impossible to know how to prevent muzzleloaders in our season if the majority of our very small group of hunters already shoot doe and are told it's not enough.

[Five Seasons]

Maybe all this has nothing to do with controlling the herd at all in these doe only zones.

Perhaps the real intention here was to get more hunters into the unaffected regions where we got plenty of buck and doe for everybody!

A little reverse psychology on the DEC's part would not surprise me especially hearing how many here will be hunting the first two weeks in different unaffected WMU's now.

 

I bet half this board would jump at the chance to get "access" to some of these areas. Hunters to these parts of the country are only the issue because most of the area is developed and unhuntable.

 

[stubby68]

                        Doc, step back and look at it from another way. The Dec wants doe take persentages to be higher during bow seasons. As it stands right they are very low persentage of doe take during gun season is high. I know all the but there are more gun hunters then bow hunters crap but the numbers of hunters in each season does not matter when just looking at persentage. If the doe take in gun is 50% that means gun hunters are shooting does. If the doe take in bow is 20% there is room for improvement. Not as many doe can be taken during bow however there could be more taken with more effort.

 

                    Are they attacking bow hunting as everyone sees it? or are they trying to bring the persentage up so they can preserve that time of year for bows? They could just be watching to see if bow hunters are willing to step up and shoot more does. If not there could be a doe only gun season in there future. Right now from all these comments it looks like the bow hunters are not willing. All the statements about not hunting the first 2 weeks or hunting some place where they can shoot bucks are not looking good for those persentages going up.

 

                  They are looking for higher doe take in these period. I do not believe that most of the state has high deer numbers and actually most areas are low but that is only my thought and does not matter to this. When they started looking at the number of doe taken they saw that fewer doe were taken during bow season then possable could have been and saw that as a weak link they are trying to fix that link by mandatory 2 week doe only. Giveing hunters a choice was not working. Seeing all the hunters saying they are not partisapating in this looks like they will be going to the next step. If one employee is not doing the work load of others and you can not fire him right off the bat, do you have others do his work for him or do you give him the chance to do it before you bring in someone who can?

 

                      Belo I looked st that survey. It does not show how many are shooting does during bow season when the dec wants the numbers up at that time of year this is important. Saying bow hunters shoot doe . As has been said most wait till gun season to shoot does. Now that makes them a gun hunter shooting a doe not a bow hunter. Yhe comments on here show that bow hunters want to kill bucks first then maybe does latter. You say a dead doe is a dead doe what does matter when. Well if the people running things say they want more doe shot at a certian time and it is not getting done they will and have done something to make this happen. This is exactly what they are seeing. Bow hunters not willing to take doe during bow season and the majority of doe being taken during gun. they would like to see more doe dropped during bow season. They know it will not be on par with gun yet the persentage could be better with a little effort.  They put out a certian number of doe tags and expect to see them being used. They may not have a target number to hit for the bow hunters however they know the number they are seeing is low and are trying to bring that number up. Setting an exact number is not always good in work or hunting because people will hit that number and figure that is good enough and never do any more.

 

                                     How would you like it if your boss gave you a job to do, gave you guidelines on how to do it, but didn't tell you how to finish it or what he would be assessing you on? That's what they're doing. It's impossible to know how to prevent muzzleloaders in our season if the majority of our very small group of hunters already shoot doe and are told it's not enough.

                                       WHen your boss does this and you show that you can still do the job with limited info. He looks at you as an upper tier employee that can do the job with out needing a baby sitter. If you need to be told every little thing that needs to be done then you can not think for yourself. The dec gave 2 extra weeks to bow hunters a few years back. They sat back and siad lets see if this gives them more time to take some does. Didnt work everyone figured it was just moer time to take bucks. They said wiat a minuite there are high numbers of doe tags in these areas so we thought that maybe bow hunters would see this and say i have extra time and drop some does,without being told, but no they just useing it as more timg to kill bucks. Wow guess we have to think for them is what they said.

                                     When they give you the tools to do a job and you have to be told how to use them then there is a problem.

                                      If this was done during gun season the gun hunters would say ffine and go out and drop every doe they could not throw a fit and not hunt or hunt elsewhere. Give them everything you can not everything you are willing to and maybe they will get off your back.

[Five Seasons]

                     Belo I looked st that survey. It does not show how many are shooting does during bow season when the dec wants the numbers up at that time of year this is important. Saying bow hunters shoot doe . As has been said most wait till gun season to shoot does.

 

yet there is no explanation of why I need to shoot a doe then... if anything shooting a pregnant doe during mz is more effective population control than taking a pre-rut doe. A buck will just find another doe to breed.

 

So explain to me stubby why a doe must die on october 5th instead of november 20th? Honest question, maybe I'm missing something.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Belo

[The_Field_Ager]

This is exactly what they are seeing. Bow hunters not willing to take doe during bow season and the majority of doe being taken during gun. they would like to see more doe dropped during bow season. 

 

 

And this attitude underscores DECs lack of understanding of the Bow Hunter mentality (in general). There is a reason a lot of gunners don't Bow hunt, much in the same way many runner's don't practice tri-athletics. Bow hunting is a different mind-set and generally manifests as a desire for a more intense, and dare I say primal hunt, that requires getting closer to the animal.

 

There is a greater willingness to accept more failure, because the pay-off is greater in terms of self satisfaction. This is why Bow hunters I know focus on that big Buck, hoping to connect before the patterns are disturbed. It is a better use of the tag, in terms of the time invested. I spend my entire summer scouting for bow stands. I don't care as much for gun, because I am on the ground and know that I can be successful if I am in the general area of activity. This is simply not the case for bow. Simply put, bow hunting is harder, and requires more dedication. This is why the focus is on bucks. We all know that hunters, for the most part, are hardwired for bucks. The whys and they wherefores are irrelevant. It is perfectly reasonable that bow hunters would be more focused on bucks vs does. It is a natural response to the investment of time and practice.

 

If the DEC doesn't get this, they are in the wrong business.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Papist

[orion]

Belo,

Maybe everyone else missed the point

They want them dead in archery season either help them or lose the season to muzzle loaders

[The_Field_Ager]

They want them dead in archery season 

 

What's the problem with other seasons?

[moog5050]

I have to assume that DEC thinks that the doe take will stay the same in gun even if BHs are pushed to take more doe in early season.  I don't agree with the premise, but doe take should increase if that were true.

[The_Field_Ager]

I have to assume that DEC thinks that the doe take will stay the same in gun even if BHs are pushed to take more doe in early season.  I don't agree with the premise, but doe take should increase if that were true.

 

 

This will only be my fourth season Bow hunting. My experience tells me that failure and frustration really is the name of the game, in terms of getting on that animal within a range that is feasible. I hunt dense woods. So my outside range is really within 25 yards. Being up in the tree-tops further reduces my line of sight and range, but it is necessary for concealment. This is why I only hunt gun on the ground. I can see and shoot farther.

 

In any case, the odds of deer, any deer passing the stand I happen to be in within this range on a given day is really really slim. To date, this has only happened to me on 2 occasions( 1 buck,1 Doe) .I have Bow hunted hundreds of hours in this time period. For me, if the chance,slim as it may be, of the big buck passing by, is taken away, gone then is the enthusiasm for those early, long sits. Gone is the impetus for taking time off work. I simply won't get out as much and therein lies the obvious flaw. Shooting does is just not as exciting. I will wait for gun to fill the freezer.

 

Hunting is supposed to be a fun way to recreate and test my skills, first and foremost. The DEC has taken a 100% utilitarian view of the thing. They have left out the human factor.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Papist

[phade]

I have to assume that DEC thinks that the doe take will stay the same in gun even if BHs are pushed to take more doe in early season. I don't agree with the premise, but doe take should increase if that were true.

The lack of transparency makes any assessment or understanding of the DECs decision nothing more than a crapshoot. No baseline numbers, no actual facts as they believe them to be in their PRs, and no plan layout.

Just "general" fluid language that could be interpreted twelve ways to Sunday, so it fits their agenda to bring in MZ. They wont commit to any number because they are dead set on bringing in guns. Its their agenda and it is pretty clear, which is unfortunately the only clear thing about this situation.

Let's just call a spade a spade. The DEC wants gun in bow to protect their own job security. Art in Region 8 probably has alot of heat from interests who want deer numbers lower and at the state level Jeremy is getting this on a more macro scale. They do not care about hunter interests despite trying to aay otherwise. The DEC said they responded to feedback given during the comment period. Has anyone gotten a response? Not me.

Edited August 10, 2015 by phade

[moog5050]

This will only be my fourth season Bow hunting. My experience tells me that failure and frustration really is the name of the game, in terms of getting on that animal within a range that is feasible. I hunt dense woods. So my outside range is really within 25 yards. Being up in the tree-tops further reduces my line of sight and range, but it is necessary for concealment. This is why I only hunt gun on the ground. I can see and shoot farther.

 

In any case, the odds of deer, any deer passing the stand I happen to be in within this range on a given day is really really slim. To date, this has only happened to me on 2 occasions.I have Bow hunted hundreds of hours in this time period. For me, if the chance,slim as it may be, of the big buck passing by, is taken away, gone then is the enthusiasm for those early, long sits. Gone is the impetus for taking time off work. I simply won't get out as much and therein lies the obvious flaw. Shooting does is just not as exciting. I will wait for gun to fill the freezer.

 

 

I understand.  I hunt in the affected areas and pass many, many doe every year.  I also average killing 4 doe a season, probably 2 (3 last year) in archery.  Again, I don't see myself taking more doe overall simply because its doe only first two weeks of archery, but I do suspect that is the DEC's thinking. 

 

If DEC really wants more doe taken in this period, then open DMPs to as many as a hunter wants with proof that the first two are filled.   Even in these WMUs, each area is different, but some do have very high doe populations.  We have one property where we regularly shoot 10 plus doe a season and it is still heavily populated the next season.  Other properties in the same WMU, 10 doe taken would decimate the local population.

[moog5050]

The lack of transparency makes any assessment or understanding of the DECs decision nothing more than a crapshoot. No baseline numbers, no actual facts as they believe them to be in their PRs, and no plan layout.

Just "general" fluid language that could be interpreted twelve ways to Sunday, so it fits their agenda to bring in MZ. They wont commit to any number because they are dead set on bringing in guns. Its their agenda and it is pretty clear, which is unfortunately the only clear thing about this situation.

 

I agree.  At least if DEC said, we want 50,000 doe taken in archery, the BHs could have a number to shoot for and hopefully avoid the inevitable "well we need to open part of the season to firearms."  Not that the BHs should shoulder this burden, but at least the DEC plan would be clear.

 

As it is, DEC leaves the issue open so that it can do what it wants regardless of the increase in doe kills in archery.

[growalot]

Stubby and Orion,

 Will you please tell me how I am suppose to shoot more doe these first two weeks when the DEC does not give me any extra tags until NOV1

I have stated and I can not believe you would disagree ...BH should not be expected to burn their either or tag the first two weeks of bow. Then you have BH that hunt multiple areas and seasons(areas that do not get extra tags) and split their tags...So tell me how the DEC could possible expect a higher doe count just those 2 weeks

[orion]

What's the problem with other seasons?

First remember I'm not making the rules and have said it won't work

But the other seasons have a 50% doe take archery doesn't

I'm obviously in the minority of trying to appease the DEC and trying to keep guns out of the archery season

So let's start a new topic or maybe a poll!

Who'll be the first to bitch when they put guns in bow season!

[The_Field_Ager]

But the other seasons have a 50% doe take archery doesn't

 

 

And why is that do you think?

 

Seems to me then, if more dead doe is the goal, the gunners (and I am one) are the group to seek help from. They have the means, the numbers and the right attitude. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Papist

[The_Field_Ager]

Who'll be the first to bitch when they put guns in bow season!

 

 

Essentially this would mean there is no more bow season.

[moog5050]

I'm obviously in the minority of trying to appease the DEC and trying to keep guns out of the archery season

 

 

Phade's point, which is correct, is that DEC hasn't stated what will appease it.

[gfdeputy2]

We have been dealing with this for years here in NH but just the opposite

during MZ & gun season we have doe days no permits just certain days we can take does

some zones are not allowed to shoot does period some zones get 3 days then other zones are in between 0-3 days

I will say it stinks as my area we seem to have a ton of does. now this is only a guess but I think the doe to buck ratio has to be at least 6:1 but yet we have a limited doe season

I am a hunter & I adapt to the laws some which change every year but I continue to hunt. I guess with out getting death threats (LOL) would most be just as upset if it were the other way around & you couldn't shoot does but buck only? Not trying to start a war I am seriously asking

[DirtTime]

I guess with out getting death threats (LOL) would most be just as upset if it were the other way around & you couldn't shoot does but buck only? Not trying to start a war I am seriously asking

 

 

Good point!

 

But, Oh Boy.......