Town Owned Land, Huntable?

[Canis Latrans]

Hello, I'm looking for information about when town-owned land can and cannot be hunted. I found a small chunk of Town-owned land. It's all woods, but I can't find any information on it. Looking at the tax maps it simply lists the parcel as "Town of XXX" There are no posted signs on it (or signs of any kind), it doesn't seem to be a park etc.

 

Has anyone ran into this before? As far as I can tell if it doesn't say no hunting, isn't posted, and is owned by the town, wouldn't it just be considered public land? I would only hunt with a bow so it's not like I would be a danger or violate any sort of firearms rules if there are any in the town. I'm not posting the town or the land because all of my public land is already crawling with hunters, and my only private land is trespassed on every day. If anyone has any insight or has run into this before I'd appreciate some help. Thank you. 

[Doc]

My guess is that just like any town possessions, permission has to be obtained before use. I would inquire at the Town Hall, asking the town supervisor or the Town Clerk or some other appropriate individual and try to get written permission. If you don't, sure as hell some animal rights wacko resident will be more than happy to make an issue of your hunting there and you could get dragged into an ugly public controversy.

 

Another way to look at it is to consider it to be like any land that is not posted. It is still considered land that is not to be trespassed on without some authorization ........ posted or not. 

[Canis Latrans]

Thanks for the advice. After looking I have found a few of these places in the tax maps. Most of them are parks, not wooded areas. As far as decent sized chunks of wood belonging to the town, county, or state... I feel like they are public property and SHOULD allow hunting unless it is listed as forbidden. I considered contacting the town hall but to be honest I have little faith in government workers having any idea what they are talking about. I have found half of them just make up an answer on the spot and you will not know whether they have any idea what they are talking about or not. I'll give it a shot though.

Any one else ever run into this? If you did, and you inquired to the town hall, what was the result? Thank you. 

[Doc]

Ha-ha-ha ..... It sounds like you are asking us to give you permission to hunt there. Sorry .... the only place you can get permission is from officials of the town. If you are concerned about their word being any good, ask for written permission. At least you will have evidence of attempting to do the right thing. Town governments have legal representation that they may call on if the question of legality is a tough one. However, you cannot just out of hand assume you are going to get a bogus answer. Of course don't be asking the cleaning lady or the town historian....lol.

[growalot]

land owned by the town may have been properties willed to the town...Even though it is considered "Town" land ,thus your assertion "public". All town owned land comes under the jurisdiction of said town government and reqiures permission of that government for any and all use. So you do need to get permission from the town supervisor to hunt said lands...Their lawyer will most likely advise against such permission due to the possibility of injury lawsuits and insurance issues.

Edited November 30, 2015 by growalot

[WingNut]

You would be better off calling the "Parks and Recreation" office for said Town.  More than likely the Town Clerk won't know how to answer you and direct you to another office.

I had a similar question this fall during goose season.  As for written permission, don't hold your breath....

[phade]

In 99 of 100 cases, they will refer you to the legal representation for the town or county. And, in 98 of 99 cases, that legal representative will realize there is nothing clearly stating hunting is not allowed when all other laws/regs are followed, but denies permission to hunt because of ignorance.

 

I literally had a county attorney tell me he didn't know the answer after looking into it, especially when I noted that the village's books didn't  outlaw discharges (oversight on their part). Next year, their books were amended accordingly. He advised me off the record to only bowhunt it that year before the law changed just to avoid any issues if someone complained about a firearms discharge. He didn't see me breaking any law but said that it would just "raise a big stink." Nobody wants that.

 

It is amazing to me the vast swaths of town or county owned lands that are locked up and unable to be hunted legally or made available to the common knowledge of hunters. Some of these towns and villages have hundreds or thousands of acres locked up in small 5, 10, 15 acres lots. They just sit there, idle.

[philoshop]

In 99 of 100 cases, they will refer you to the legal representation for the town or county. And, in 98 of 99 cases, that legal representative will realize there is nothing clearly stating hunting is not allowed when all other laws/regs are followed, but denies permission to hunt because of ignorance.

 

I literally had a county attorney tell me he didn't know the answer after looking into it, especially when I noted that the village's books didn't  outlaw discharges (oversight on their part). Next year, their books were amended accordingly. He advised me off the record to only bowhunt it that year before the law changed just to avoid any issues if someone complained about a firearms discharge. He didn't see me breaking any law but said that it would just "raise a big stink." Nobody wants that.

 

It is amazing to me the vast swaths of town or county owned lands that are locked up and unable to be hunted legally or made available to the common knowledge of hunters. Some of these towns and villages have hundreds or thousands of acres locked up in small 5, 10, 15 acres lots. They just sit there, idle.

 

And "the government" whether village, town, county, state, or federal buys or seizes more land from citizens every day.

Then there are the foreign buyers. And the list goes on.

 

Do the FEMA camps have working toilets, or 'hunting allowed' areas? Just wondering.

[growalot]

Now that this has been brought to the forefront of ppls minds. This along with the DEC's inability to figure out how, when, or where to regulate the over whelming deer population in NYS. Perhaps NYS hunters should start sending a list of such issues to the DEC headquarters asking what they are doing to open up these pockets of unhunted lands breeding deer . To make them available to hunters,to ease the complaints of residence playing dodge deer and loosing $$$ in plantings.

 

Stop telling bow hunters what they can't hunt, just open up places they can't. I for one being a land owner  never thought about such places...though I should have...... seeing we managed to get one parcel that almost was willed to the town. How many other hunters out there have not considered such places?

Why is it they are not aggressively going to these towns ,researching how many and where these "vacant'' parcels are. and pressuring the towns to open them to bow hunting? Then directing hunters as to where to go for access.

If it is the individual hunters resonsibility to try and secure private lands to hunt,then it should be the DEC's responsibility to secure all and any huntable public(township lands)

If the DEC is not doing such things,not able to put a some what real number to deer numbers, what are they doing with the funds and resources they have?

 

They are attempting to make hunters accountable for their hunting...when do hunters seriously start making the DEC accountable for their lack of real management,in not using all the resources available to the "TOOLS" they have at hand.

Edited November 30, 2015 by growalot

[Canis Latrans]

What about scouting such land? Those saying you can't necessarily hunt it, if it's town owned land with no signs can you get in trouble for simply walking around? Someone would need to be the 'victim' and sign if this is the case.

[Canis Latrans]

Ha-ha-ha ..... It sounds like you are asking us to give you permission to hunt there. Sorry .... the only place you can get permission is from officials of the town. If you are concerned about their word being any good, ask for written permission. At least you will have evidence of attempting to do the right thing. Town governments have legal representation that they may call on if the question of legality is a tough one. However, you cannot just out of hand assume you are going to get a bogus answer. Of course don't be asking the cleaning lady or the town historian....lol.

 

I'm glad you're having a good laugh! What I think is funny though is your answer and then the answer of two people below with actual experience in the matter, saying I'd be referred from the people you listed to someone else, and they will likely say no because they don't know what the answer is. 

The fact that you think it's laughable that I would get a bogus answer unless I ask the janitor of these public officials shows you must not have much experience working with government workers trying to sort through the enormous tangled mess that is the laws of this state. 

Thank you for leaving your advice, I do appreciate it.

 

To the people saying we should demand that these lands are open to bow hunting they are absolutely right. Anyone catch these recent articles about committees to address deer and tick issues being formed in the capital region? They sent out a survey about if and how the town should control the deer population, and the best they came up with was a plan to link hunters to homeowners in the suburbs who are tired of deer everywhere.

 

I actually inquired about this, and asked what the actual deer numbers were, and if I could talk to a land owner about hunting. They replied back they have no idea the actual number of deer, and while they had many inquiries from hunters, they haven't had any residents sign up for the program.

 

It's just so funny, because most people that have dealt with these kinds of committee before know that there is a widespread issue, but know it will probably die here and that somehow this committee will not be able to get anything done and the simple solution of opening up all of the idle woodlots to hunters won't be addressed because of liability or some other cop-out that they could easily fix by a waver or something if it is even necessary.  Why is bowhunting in the woods so dangerous, but you can have kids skateboard, bike, play football etc. and there is no liability preventing them from being in the parks? 

Edited November 30, 2015 by Canis Latrans

[G-Man]

If its.in a huntable area and legal setbacks are observed hunt it. I know of several.places in the suburbs of buffalo that are town owned and hunted many are posted with the neighbors signs ..

Lol

[growalot]

So to Phades post...All those lands are a deficit to the towns and cities....until they have a "private" owner they  produce no revenue to the towns/cities they belong to. This is something the DEC could easily work with...Offering incentives,$$$$, to open them...or the towns themselves to put in an iron clad contract(against law suits) and open them to being leased for hunting. This is a win win for everyone...... tax payers,and hunters. When the subject of the property we got was brought up by our town supervisor, he said...I'm glad she didn't actually will the property to us...it's basically worthless and takes it off the tax rolls...BTW I used that to help get the taxes lowered...lol

Edited November 30, 2015 by growalot

[growalot]

Hhhmmm.... I now wonder how long it will take for someone else to look this up...then go to the owners with a proposition....I know if it were my area...I'd be in the car by now...

[incognito]

Ask if the town/village has a deer management assistance program. That may lead you to knowledgeable staffers. The town/village police or attorney may have knowledge.

 

Bring a permission slip with you. Click here to download the "Ask Permission Slip

 

I am not a lawyer. Check out this link in its entirety.

Edited to add: The town or village may have its own laws requiring you to have written permission before hunting on other people's land.

Edited to add: Consider contacting the environmental conservation officer assigned to the area.

http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/info/pubs/LegalFinancial/liability_boundary_posting.htm

 

Property Rights of Landowners and Recreationists

New York laws provide a framework in which landowners have the means to control recreational use of their property. Landowners, by their actions, can allow blanket permission for anyone to use their property; they can exclude all recreational use; or they can decide whether to allow recreationists on a case-by-case basis.

Two sections of New York law, Penal Law 140.00-140.10 and Environmental Conservation Law (ECL) 11-2111-2117, define the rights of landowners versus recreationists or others who might enter or use private property. Penal Law 140.10 states (in part): A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the third degree when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building or upon real property which is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders.

Note that in Penal Law 140.00, which defines the terms used above, the term "enter or remain unlawfully" is explained as follows:

 

A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner.

ECL 11-2113 makes it illegal for persons to trespass on private lands that are properly posted under ECL 11-2111. ECL 11-2115 makes it illegal if hunters, trappers, or anglers do not leave private lands, whether posted or not, immediately upon the request of the landowner. Finally, ECL 11-2117 makes it illegal for hunters, trappers, or anglers to kill or injure dogs or livestock (including poultry), or to damage gates, fences, vehicles, farm equipment, or buildings on private lands.

Violations of any of the above laws for which you wish to press charges should be reported to the proper law enforcement authorities. If the violation involves hunting, fishing, trapping, or disturbing wildlife, it may be reported to an environmental conservation officer or to your local sheriff. Environmental conservation officers are not required to enforce trespass laws that do not involve fish and wildlife activities. Other forms of trespass should be reported to your local sheriff.

 

 

Recreational Liability When No Fee Is Charged

Liability is a concern that all landowners face in arriving at a policy about recreational use of their property by others. What if a hunter, hiker, or another recreationist is injured on your property? Are you liable?

The New York State Legislature was among the first in the nation to realize how much people depend upon the use of private property for outdoor recreation. To encourage landowners to keep their lands open to recreationists, legislation was passed in 1956 that limited the liability of landowners who allowed hunting, fishing, trapping, and training of dogs on their property when no fee is charged and the landowner receives no other consideration from the recreationist. In the succeeding years, numerous other recreation activities have been added to this list in General Obligations Law (GOL) 9-103: canoeing, hiking, horseback riding, bicycle riding, motorized vehicle operation for recreational purposes, snowmobile operation, cross-country skiing, tobogganing, sledding, hang gliding, speleological activities, boating, and the cutting or gathering of wood for noncommercial purposes.

GOL 9-103 does not totally exclude the liability of landowners toward recreationists. Assuming no fee is charged, the statute states that the landowner owes no duty to keep the premises safe for entry or use by recreationists pursuing the listed activities, or to give warning of any hazardous condition, use of property, structure, or activity on the property to persons entering for recreation. It also states that farm owners or lessees have no duty to keep their farms safe for use by recreationists or to give warning of hazardous conditions or uses of the property. However, landowners are not protected if they intentionally harm a recreationist, or if they "willfully" or "maliciously" fail to guard against, or warn recreationists of, a danger on the property.

Edited November 30, 2015 by incognito

[Fletch]

I hunted a piece of town land in CNY for many, many years. It butted up to Niagra Mohawk Land as well. When I was a kid we hunted it no issues. I actually called Niagra Mohawk way back and permission from them until they sold and lawyers got worried about liabilities bla bla bla. As the world changed we started to get harassed by local cops so I went to the town and jeesh what a rigamorow that was........ I had a couple connections and an inlaw that new a judge and that was the only way I could stop these yahoos from keeping on pushing me off in a circle of never ending  no answers and go see him/her or do this/that. I finally got a signed letter from the town board that I was allowed to bow hunt there and had that to show the cops who were always waiting for me to come out. I could not gun hunt a while before this due to some new building in the area. That worked for a quite a few years until I moved quite a ways away and did not hunt the area any more.

[Doc]

I'm glad you're having a good laugh! What I think is funny though is your answer and then the answer of two people below with actual experience in the matter, saying I'd be referred from the people you listed to someone else, and they will likely say no because they don't know what the answer is. 

The fact that you think it's laughable that I would get a bogus answer unless I ask the janitor of these public officials shows you must not have much experience working with government workers trying to sort through the enormous tangled mess that is the laws of this state. 

Thank you for leaving your advice, I do appreciate it.

I held a position in our town government public communications for quite a few years. I spent a lot of time working hand in glove with all of the town officials, and I know that they treat every public contact as a potential vote and are more than willing to look into questions from constituents if those constituents at least make the effort to question them. Those that start off their search for information by asking some hunting forum members about an unidentified specific parcel of land owned by an unidentified town is indeed funny. Maybe more funny-peculiar than funny-ha,ha. But at any rate, I told you where the answer resides, you have the option of following up on the advice or not. If you have a bunch of yo-yos running your town, that is a problem you probably should address at the next election. But since they are the keepers of town business, it seems pretty obvious that that is the very first place where you should be looking for the answer instead of fishing for advice as to why you should not be contacting them.

[philoshop]

I've been granted permission to hunt in some pretty odd places over the years. I've taken deer from cemeteries, landfills, public parks, and private airfields. Things have definitely changed.

[Buckmaster7600]

There is a landfill that borders me it was owned by the county and is now private. The year they opened I was kicked off and after repeated attempts to gain acces and calls to dec about the smell I finally talked to the guy in charge and after explaining to him that until I can hunt it or he can contain the smell that I would continue calling in complaints, then he started seeing it my way. I now have sole access to 450 acres. ????

Edited November 30, 2015 by Buckmaster7600

[phade]

There is a landfill that borders me it was owned by the county and is now private. The year they opened I was kicked off and after repeated attempts to gain acces and calls to dec about the smell I finally talked to the guy in charge and after explaining to him that until I can hunt it or he can contain the smell that I would continue calling in complaints he started seeing it my way. I now have sole access to 450 acres. ????

 

So what you are saying is that you're willing to smell like a dump as long as you can hunt deer...

[Buckmaster7600]

So what you are saying is that you're willing to smell like a dump as long as you can hunt deer...

The town voted for the dump before I was able to vote so not much I can do about it but having an extra 450 acres to hunt makes the smell much more bearable. And I can only smell it during the summer when there is a south east wind.

[Canis Latrans]

I think most people know where I'm coming from when I don't want to call attention to an area that may be overlooked. While it's great to be perfectly straight edge all the time, I would hate to ruin it for everyone already using that area if I drew attention to it and the town suddenly decided it was a liability issue and everyone lost their local spot.

I checked it out today. Some deer sign with a lot of hang on and ladder stands all over it.

[Daveboone]

No avoiding going to the town offices and asking what land status is. Despite it being posted or not, zoneing will be the first limiting factor. Our town has a large wooded area in a rural area, posted. It is the public drinking water well site, and non public access is allowed. All answers have to come from the word of the town itself, and will be in the zonging, public use laws. Don't go by word of moutn...local traditions of access aren't the same as legal access.

[DirtTime]

I would get permission and also check to see what weapons are legal to use there. Just because your county allows rifles does not mean that all public land in that county is the same. Two good examples are the Albany Pine Bush ( bow only for deer, shotgun using non-toxic shot for small game ( not during the deer season ) ), and Thatcher Park ( no rifles for deer, bow hunting in designated areas only ).

It is better to play it right then play it wrong and get tickets, or worse, or a court date to get your gun back.

[thphtm]

There are some spots like that in the lower Catskills also .Not far from rifle hunting areas, one spot comes to,mind that is archery only because it is near a multi use town park,that is for boating and fishing.Even though it is sourended by heavy woods,as said before you have to keep asking until you find the right town official to give the answer to your question.

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