Coyote Bounty in PA.

[Doc]

Did anyone notice in the last issue of NYON (New York Outdoor News) the article on Pennsylvania working on a $25 bounty for coyotes. Money well spent, or a waste of money for them? What do you think?

[SteveB]

Waste.

[growalot]

Let's see..money going to hunters and seeing REAL numbers coming in,verse ,money going to "Studies" and statistical numbers coming in....Hhhmmmm A P.A. plan compared to a NY plan...my money would be on P.A.

[nyantler]

http://www.syracuse.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2015/01/suny_esf_prof_coyotes_are_everywhere_in_nys_but_overall_impact_on_deer_is_minima.html

Here is an article about a recent coyote study done here in NY... Interesting read... I don't know much about the current coyote situation in PA. Population vs. deer and such... but in NY there still isn't sufficient evidence of a coyote population problem vs. deer that isn't already being handled by the current coyote hunting season.

Whether a bounty would help with accurate coyote harvest numbers or entice more coyote hunting in PA is yet to be seen... Hard to find deer vs coyote population numbers for PA to know whether anything they might be doing would translate at all to anything that is happening here in NY. The coyote thing is becoming a hot issue... I'll bet we'll be seeing much more in the way of coyote vs. deer studies here in NY in the near future. It's about time hunters started learning the truth about coyote populations in NY. I still say that the almost panic like response to the coyote vs deer issue is more hunter driven than fact driven.

[Doc]

Yeah, the article caught my eye because we have had so many discussions about coyote vs. deer and small game and whatever. And now into the act pops the PA. DNR.  I don't have a whole lot of knowledge about the workings and capabilities of these people to our south, so I don't really have any axe to grind one way or the other. But I assume that just like our own DEC, they probably think quite highly of themselves and probably have a lot of paper and credentials that back up the credibility of their actions. And this bounty thing seems to be their idea. So naturally I had to ask the question. Who really has it right. I know that NYS outlawed all bounties unless health concerns can be demonstrated, so we needn't be expecting this thinking to migrate north. But I really am curious as to what us laymen think about all the stuff flying around about coyote control.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

So they say they prey heavy on fawns in the spring and summer. So a crazy number of dogs on say a 1000 acre piece of land could very well wipe out 3/4 or more of that years fawns crop on that piece of property.   Tell me that that will not have a huge negative effect on a piece of property and ruin a properties hunting?  Wrong. You let that go on for a couple years with fawns and then add in adult kills on top of hunting and natural selection and you soon have a piece of property with no whitetails to speak of.

[growalot]

 

Money well spent, or a waste of money for them? What do you think?

My answer was based on above...Though take deer out of it and insert turkey and small game...then add the number of coyotes seen on cams this year...They are having an impact on my land ...deer aside, I don't like it...I also do not like feeling unsafe walking my property in the dark. Now lets not get into that again. I believe from years ago until now, when I first mentioned the lack of fear they display..I have been proven right. This not only from members  accounts here, but now studies.

Edited January 22, 2016 by growalot

[grampy]

The number of coyote's in some areas are just out of control. Our area of 4-H is one of those areas. When you recover a deer after a three hour wait and it is half eaten, there are too many coyotes. When at night, on a 500 acre farm property, you can hear two or three, large groups of coyote's calling back and forth, there are too many coyotes. When you see only one out of three does with fawns in the summer fields, there are too many coyote's. I could go on an on with observations, made by a couple of older guy's that have hunted and lived on this property their entire lives. All the land owners in the area say the same thing, so it's not just us. 

 

This is not some study done by any number of agencies, but real life observation, by the people actually on the land. I remember, before the coyote's population exploded. And the difference in small game, turkey and deer numbers, then and now, is staggering. 

 

So, what needs to be done? In my humble opinion, a year round open season, or a bounty like PA. is proposing, would be a start. But I know, that alone, will not reduce the numbers, to make much difference.

 

And really, I don't "hate" coyote's. They are part of the wild, that make the outdoors and nature so special. I just wish there were not so many of them.

[Curmudgeon]

My answer was based on above...Though take deer out of it and insert turkey and small game...then add the number of coyotes seen on cams this year...They are having an impact on my land ...deer aside, I don't like it...I also do not like feeling unsafe walking my property in the dark. Now lets not get into that again. I believe from years ago until now, when I first mentioned the lack of fear they display..I have been proven right. This not only from members  accounts here, but now studies.

 

Let's not get into what again, irrational fears? My SIL won't get on a plane. I think she is overwrought about such things and planes are much more likely to kill you than a coyote.

 

What a waste of taxpayer money. I don't know the PA but this smells like politicians, not professional wildlife managers.

 

[growalot]

So ...I see you joined in 2014...So I'll let the" irrational fears" comment get  chalked up to ..whats a polite phrase...hhhmmmm...lack of information...

 

my experiences aside...and this not being DEATHS...I never said anything about deaths I said their fear of humans...get a grip please:

BTW notice they distinguish the difference..western coyote to eastern coywolf...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_attacks_on_humans

Edited January 22, 2016 by growalot

[Curmudgeon]

So ...I see you joined in 2014...So I'll let the" irrational fears" comment get  chalked up to ..whats a polite phrase...hhhmmmm...lack of information...

 

It is sad that you think this is the place to get accurate information, and that I am an ignoramus because I have been depending on peer reviewed science for my information. Wow!

 

I have said it before but apparently it needs repeating: The risks to humans from coyotes cannot compare to the risks of bee sting, domestic dogs, bacon, domestic violence, glyphosate, falling out of a tree stand, self inflicted wounds from weapons (knives, arrows, guns), etc. etc. etc.

 

The fear of coyotes is not based on any rationale risk assessment. It is primal like the fear of snakes. It made sense to fear wolves - or wolf-like creatures - when we lived off flocks of sheep and goats in a pastoral Europe a thousand years ago. You can let those fears go now.

[growalot]

Actually no I don't, but I am busy and yes it still contains ,what can be assumed SOME accurate information...Now you are clearly on the defensive here ...with your bee stings ,dog bites...Good Lord bacon comparisons. I'll step away from any attempt at a rational discourse with you...please have a cup of tea....Ooppsss..... organic herbal green tea, and try to lower that blood pressure.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Actually no I don't, but I am busy and yes it still contains ,what can be assumed SOME accurate information...Now you are clearly on the defensive here ...with your bee stings ,dog bites...Good Lord bacon comparisons. I'll step away from any attempt at a rational discourse with you...please have a cup of tea....Ooppsss..... organic herbal green tea, and try to lower that blood pressure.

You have to remember who you are talking to there Grow.  He has never had the pleasure of gutting a deer,with blood to your elbows and a flashlight in your mouth during bow season only to have 3 yotes casing you and having one come in huffing and showing teeth.

Nah that crap dont happen in some of these worlds. They like to read books, and go back to 5-10 year old studies.

 

Just shows some have no clue what a real problem is.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

The number of coyote's in some areas are just out of control. Our area of 4-H is one of those areas. When you recover a deer after a three hour wait and it is half eaten, there are too many coyotes. When at night, on a 500 acre farm property, you can hear two or three, large groups of coyote's calling back and forth, there are too many coyotes. When you see only one out of three does with fawns in the summer fields, there are too many coyote's. I could go on an on with observations, made by a couple of older guy's that have hunted and lived on this property their entire lives. All the land owners in the area say the same thing, so it's not just us. 

 

This is not some study done by any number of agencies, but real life observation, by the people actually on the land. I remember, before the coyote's population exploded. And the difference in small game, turkey and deer numbers, then and now, is staggering. 

 

So, what needs to be done? In my humble opinion, a year round open season, or a bounty like PA. is proposing, would be a start. But I know, that alone, will not reduce the numbers, to make much difference.

 

And really, I don't "hate" coyote's. They are part of the wild, that make the outdoors and nature so special. I just wish there were not so many of them.

You my friend are in the middle stage of your problem, only to get worse. When is the last time you saw Rabbits or game birds on great pieces of property?  We used to have piles of them here also. You will never dent them with normal hunting season. You and other land owners have a problem and know it?  Call in the dogs and Snowmobiles. You will be shocked what they drag off that property the first few hunts.

[ATbuckhunter]

I think its a huge waste of money. The state is better off putting that money into habitat improvement than on a bounty. Best thing to do for coyote management is to help improve the fur market. Many trappers and hunters wont waste their time on a coyote or even bother trapping at all with these low prices. 

[Curmudgeon]

You are just as likely to get good information on coyotes on huntingny.com as you are to get good information on Muslims.

[grampy]

You are just as likely to get good information on coyotes on huntingny.com as you are to get good information on Muslims.

 

I, for one, know more about coyote's than Muslims. Not sure if it really makes a difference though.

[Larry]

here some stuff on coyotes

coyote_progress_report_2014.pdf

esfcoyote09.pdf

Sussman_2010_Hansen coyote.pdf

[Bendog]

Bounties haven't worked.....how's this for a scenario: Hunters bag a couple in NY (or Ohio, or West Virginia) then turn them into Pa. for their $25.....

 

Also, coyotes have shown to be a "compensating species...." In Kansas, I believe back in the 1940s, the feds undertook an eradication program....what they found was the average litter size went from 5 to 12....so the coyotes basically thumbed their noses at that effort....

 

I don't have an answer, and I recognize that we all want to do "something," and maybe a year-round season might give us the kind of feel-good effort we'd like, but I'm skeptical as to whether we can make an impact....

[shawnhu]

Bounties haven't worked.....how's this for a scenario: Hunters bag a couple in NY (or Ohio, or West Virginia) then turn them into Pa. for their $25.....

Also, coyotes have shown to be a "compensating species...." In Kansas, I believe back in the 1940s, the feds undertook an eradication program....what they found was the average litter size went from 5 to 12....so the coyotes basically thumbed their noses at that effort....

I don't have an answer, and I recognize that we all want to do "something," and maybe a year-round season might give us the kind of feel-good effort we'd like, but I'm skeptical as to whether we can make an impact....

Extending the season to all year is probably the best "solution". It's really two pronged, and I can't see a downside to it. You'll have more hunter participation year round, better marksmanship as a result, and more license sales to keep hunters engaged. All the while, keeping the predators in check. Win-win

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[Mr VJP]

I have said it before but apparently it needs repeating: The risks to humans from coyotes cannot compare to the risks of bee sting, domestic dogs, bacon, domestic violence, glyphosate, falling out of a tree stand, self inflicted wounds from weapons (knives, arrows, guns), etc. etc. etc.

 

......yet.

[Curmudgeon]

Extending the season to all year is probably the best "solution". It's really two pronged, and I can't see a downside to it. You'll have more hunter participation year round, better marksmanship as a result, and more license sales to keep hunters engaged. All the while, keeping the predators in check. Win-win

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

 

Since the NYON started this conversation, you should all read the commentary in the most recent edition. It discusses what types of hunting non-hunters support and what they do not. While it does not cite surveys on coyote hunting, it does on other predators. It isn't good. If you don't think what non-hunters think is important, you are naive. Hunters are a small minority. Don't expect to win at the ballot box.

 

You are not going to get hunters to agree on any need to control coyotes. I hunt and raise sheep and I think most of this is nonsense. The stories get better over time, and there may be a grain of truth in there, but there is no "coyote problem". Yes, there are problem animals but in 40 years of raising sheep, the yotes have done nothing more than walk through the pastures - with the sheep in them! As NYAntler likes to say, there are 10 times as many deer hunters in NY as coyotes.

 

Anyone who has spent any time studying these animals knows that persecuting them causes them to increase reproduction. So, even if we agreed there was a problem - which we do not - the bounty effort will do nothing to change the situation. It is 19th Century wildlife management at its worst.

 

So, the "downside" to a year round season: Divisions among hunters; Strong resistance from the antis; Deteriorating support for hunting among non-hunters; A demonstrated lack of respect for the hunted animal by hunting them during whelping season: And, marksmenship? Are they no more than targets, like a clay pigeon?

 

Last year we were discussing how coyote and crow hunting contests bolster the negative view non-hunters can have of hunters. This is more of the same.

 

 

[shawnhu]

Since the NYON started this conversation, you should all read the commentary in the most recent edition. It discusses what types of hunting non-hunters support and what they do not. While it does not cite surveys on coyote hunting, it does on other predators. It isn't good. If you don't think what non-hunters think is important, you are naive. Hunters are a small minority. Don't expect to win at the ballot box.

You are not going to get hunters to agree on any need to control coyotes. I hunt and raise sheep and I think most of this is nonsense. The stories get better over time, and there may be a grain of truth in there, but there is no "coyote problem". Yes, there are problem animals but in 40 years of raising sheep, the yotes have done nothing more than walk through the pastures - with the sheep in them! As NYAntler likes to say, there are 10 times as many deer hunters in NY as coyotes.

Anyone who has spent any time studying these animals knows that persecuting them causes them to increase reproduction. So, even if we agreed there was a problem - which we do not - the bounty effort will do nothing to change the situation. It is 19th Century wildlife management at its worst.

So, the "downside" to a year round season: Divisions among hunters; Strong resistance from the antis; Deteriorating support for hunting among non-hunters; A demonstrated lack of respect for the hunted animal by hunting them during whelping season: And, marksmenship? Are they no more than targets, like a clay pigeon?

Last year we were discussing how coyote and crow hunting contests bolster the negative view non-hunters can have of hunters. This is more of the same.

Please don't take my suggestion and twist them around, I understand your frustration on this subject, but to misdirect your anger towards me, is probably unjustified.

Marksmanship - clay pigeons fly, coyotes don't, not from the studies that I've read. You may have read a different study than I have. With the possible introduction of coyote hunting all year, I would imagine that SOME hunters would hit the range more often, sight in their varmint/small game rifles/shotguns/bows and prepare themselves for hunting coyotes, just like any other game that would be deserving of a clean, ethical kill. Not like the way you make it out to be, shooting clay pigeons.

Divisions amongst hunters - I've yet to meet a hunter on the field that didn't want to shoot a coyote, anytime, anywhere it's legal. It's no secret that many hunters in NYS prioritize deer over most other game, including coyote. That's why you see many more coyote harvests in NYS after deer season has ended. If coyote season was opened to year round, I don't see this division of hunters you speak of, I could only see more engaged hunters, higher hunter retention in NYS, and additional hunter recruitment from young hunters. These are all positive things IMO.

Strong resistance from antis - well, what can I say, antis will be antis. They resist hunting of deer too, are we going to stop that as well?

Deteriorating support for hunting among non-hunters - so you are saying that non-hunters support hunters more if we don't hunt coyotes? Playing into the fear that non-hunters will support hunters less is the same as letting the antis dictate what we should, or shouldn't do to continue the hunting tradition that has been passed down from generation to generation. If a non-hunter feels that by opening the coyote season to a year-long season offends him, but recruits 2 new hunters because it's easier to introduce a young hunter in the warmer weather vs cold, or keeps a hunter engaged by having to look forward to a year-long hunting season, I think that's a win.

Respect for the animal - I don't think the animal feels more or less disrespected if it's killed during the winter, spring, fall, or summer.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[grampy]

Please don't take my suggestion and twist them around, I understand your frustration on this subject, but to misdirect your anger towards me, is probably unjustified.

Marksmanship - clay pigeons fly, coyotes don't, not from the studies that I've read. You may have read a different study than I have. With the possible introduction of coyote hunting all year, I would imagine that SOME hunters would hit the range more often, sight in their varmint/small game rifles/shotguns/bows and prepare themselves for hunting coyotes, just like any other game that would be deserving of a clean, ethical kill. Not like the way you make it out to be, shooting clay pigeons.

Divisions amongst hunters - I've yet to meet a hunter on the field that didn't want to shoot a coyote, anytime, anywhere it's legal. It's no secret that many hunters in NYS prioritize deer over most other game, including coyote. That's why you see many more coyote harvests in NYS after deer season has ended. If coyote season was opened to year round, I don't see this division of hunters you speak of, I could only see more engaged hunters, higher hunter retention in NYS, and additional hunter recruitment from young hunters. These are all positive things IMO.

Strong resistance from antis - well, what can I say, antis will be antis. They resist hunting of deer too, are we going to stop that as well?

Deteriorating support for hunting among non-hunters - so you are saying that non-hunters support hunters more if we don't hunt coyotes? Playing into the fear that non-hunters will support hunters less is the same as letting the antis dictate what we should, or shouldn't do to continue the hunting tradition that has been passed down from generation to generation. If a non-hunter feels that by opening the coyote season to a year-long season offends him, but recruits 2 new hunters because it's easier to introduce a young hunter in the warmer weather vs cold, or keeps a hunter engaged by having to look forward to a year-long hunting season, I think that's a win.

Respect for the animal - I don't think the animal feels more or less disrespected if it's killed during the winter, spring, fall, or summer.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

 

Well said! Thank you!

[Uptown Redneck]

Having never hunted coyotes, nor never knowing anyone who has, what does one do with a coyote after killing one?