New 2016 crossbow legislation introduced

[RoadKill44]

I wonder if "Big Game Hunter" programs have any influence. They sit comfortably in front of a screen while eight and ten pointers come by every minute or so. Then every 5 minutes a big griz comes to get them. The kid is free to talk "There's One" and buck to doe ratios are two buck for every doe.

 

The same kid sits in the cold, quietly now, for two hours and sees nothing. when they do show up its doe and the deer seem to be more aware than in the video. They get out of sight faster too. He comes home cold, hungry and empty handed.

 

Mom gives him lunch, he sits down and bags three 12 pointers in 10 minutes. You want to go hunting tomorrow son?

 

[G-Man]

My oldest son takes his kids ( one at a time ) during gun season when it is snowing and blowing . They either sit in a blind or in the tree house in Italy Valley .

I think letting kids hunt with a gun during bow season because they can hunt in warm weather is a joke . I don't know any other fathers that take their kids out during gun season , when it is colder , because it might spoil dad's chance of shooting the big wall hanger .

If the kid doesn't shoot a deer during the Columbus Day weekend does he / she get a Participation Trophy ?

Why is it a joke, yes I walked up hill both ways to school in a snowstorm, the youth hunt is a good way for a youth to sit longer in warmer weather and maybe see deer even if they didn't get a shot.

It doesn't affect the deer for bow hunting, the participation is low the take even lower. Kids now do not have the opera unity to walk to the end of the street with bbguns and shoot frogs out of the front ditch that we had growing up.. a swat team would be called now and parents locked up..yes I learned in the cold bitter temps, but I had nothing else to do, today there are way more activities for kids that eat up time as everything is scheduled... gone are the days of pick up ball games, as the field are all reserved.. this is a good thing period!

[jjb4900]

funny you don't hear people complaining about the youth turkey or duck hunts..........must be a deer hunter thing.

[DirtTime]

I don't think video games really have an impact in that way so much. I think Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram have more of an impact. Not just on kids either. I love being in a store when an adult is walking, head down texting into a phone and walks smack dab into another person or a display. I swear I laugh and say "Dumb ***".

 

I still feel more doe permits would help. No matter what season, if they want us to kill a doe they need to give us a way to do that while still allowing rack hunters to get the big boy ( For the record, I mean no disrespect to trophy hunters!!!! ). There's a middle ground somewhere, but no one is really looking for it. The DEC wants it their way, bow hunters want it their way, and there's not much give on either side. 

[Doc]

I wonder if "Big Game Hunter" programs have any influence. They sit comfortably in front of a screen while eight and ten pointers come by every minute or so. Then every 5 minutes a big griz comes to get them. The kid is free to talk "There's One" and buck to doe ratios are two buck for every doe.

 

The same kid sits in the cold, quietly now, for two hours and sees nothing. when they do show up its doe and the deer seem to be more aware than in the video. They get out of sight faster too. He comes home cold, hungry and empty handed.

 

Mom gives him lunch, he sits down and bags three 12 pointers in 10 minutes. You want to go hunting tomorrow son?

Expectations ....... The hunting shows on TV and videos set newcomers up for failure. They illustrate typical hunting scenarios as a little slice of heaven where the weather is great, the deer are plentiful and always big. Antler scores are emphasized, and the ease with which trophies are harvested are always exaggerated. Sitting on the couch in the living room never gives any indication of how uncomfortable things can really get. All of this TV representation of hunting makes the realities of hunting hit a lot harder when the newcomer finally sits in that blind and has a few hours to decide he never wants to do this again.

[nyslowhand]

All TV hunting shows should come with an initial disclaimer revealing exactly how many 100s of hours of stand time is edited to show a ~18-20min hunt segment, less the commercials. Most don't reveal that the hunting occurred on 1000s of leased acres and hunter was located by a guide who had done countless days of scouting and reviewing trail cam photos before the hunter even showed up. Almost forgot, the TV professional hunter's only job is to act like they're enjoying it & everyone else should be able to do what they've done. Hunt & be paid for it, my dream job!

[Doc]

So now we have to try to fool kids into thinking that all hunting involves nice warm pleasant days watching all the pretty colored leaves and enjoying the solitude of a dead-quiet woods. How long do you think that little charade is going to last when they get a taste of the real thing .... lol.

 

My thinking was that if you really thought a special youth season paid off with new recruits, the attention should have shifted to how we get as many adults as possible to mentor these new recruits. And you don't really do that by placing the season such that mentors have to decide whether they want to do that or go hunting themselves. You never get the maximum numbers of mentors when you are forcing them to pass up a good hunting day. The youth hunt should be a real special season that doesn't compete with anything if you are serious about maximizing the number of mentors.

[fasteddie]

Hey Doc --- How about Labor Day weekend when there is no school and no one else is deer hunting . That would give the woods 3 weeks for the woods to quiet down before the Bow Opener . 

[stoneam2006]

Could do a week season Dec 26 thru Jan 3....kids be off many adults have time off...weather realistic....snow to teach tracking

For kids only

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Edited April 2, 2016 by stoneam2006

[nyslowhand]

Update - Similar crossbow legislation from both the Senate & Assembly sit in the hands of the Environmental Conservation sub-committee. For crossbow legislation over the past 3 years, that's basically become a death sentence.

 

 

[fasteddie]

Could do a week season Dec 26 thru Jan 3....kids be off many adults have time off...weather realistic....snow to teach tracking

For kids only

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

Wouldn't work because the poor little kiddies would have to sit in the cold . 

[G-Man]

Yep sat in the way to warm bow season myself this year.. barely had snow for muzzleloader.

As for choosing wether to hint myself or with a kid, the kid wins hands down every time.. perhaps the pressure to get a deer yourself is to much for some. Personally I could careless, I'd rather get a youth involved on a long week ND that they are off. If you think it coddle them what's the difference with small game hunters in duck and goose hunters making noise.

Stop being grumpy old men who walked up hill both ways to school in a blizzard, and take a kid out hunting on a nice holiday weekend!

[Doc]

Hey Doc --- How about Labor Day weekend when there is no school and no one else is deer hunting . That would give the woods 3 weeks for the woods to quiet down before the Bow Opener . 

There are so many options available that would be better choices that it really made me wonder about the motivation of putting it where they did.

 

Probably the one thing that bothered me the most was the additional precedent that featured the intermixing of guns and bows. It was just one more step that demonstrated an attitude that mixing the two is no longer a concern. Given the fact that there were other options, the message being sent by the DEC attitudes and choices is obvious.

 

One point of clarification should be made. I do not find fault with how the youth season impacts bowhunting successes, other than some unlikely but possible potential safety concerns that are obvious anytime you combine those two weapons with deer hunting. But the major concern for the activity itself is the fact that many potential mentors are forced to choose between mentoring and their own bow hunting (that can't be of benefit to increasing the available pool of mentors). I am not arguing as to whether that should be a conflict in terms of right or wrong, only a statement that it likely does cause a conflict and for no reason at all given all the other alternative dates.

 

[Doc]

Yep sat in the way to warm bow season myself this year.. barely had snow for muzzleloader.

As for choosing wether to hint myself or with a kid, the kid wins hands down every time.. perhaps the pressure to get a deer yourself is to much for some. Personally I could careless, I'd rather get a youth involved on a long week ND that they are off. If you think it coddle them what's the difference with small game hunters in duck and goose hunters making noise.

Stop being grumpy old men who walked up hill both ways to school in a blizzard, and take a kid out hunting on a nice holiday weekend!

That is an excellent thought. In fact one of the best holidays for that is anytime during the Thanksgiving week. The kids have the whole week off and normally it is an excellent week of deer hunting. The fact is that Thanksgiving week usually gives the opportunity to get friends and relatives an opportunity to interface with the new hunter to show the camaraderie and social aspects of deer hunting rather than picking times when all of these people are excluded from participation. When you are trying to pick the ideal situations for hunting introduction, pick a time that is representative of what deer hunting is really all about.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 pick a time that is representative of what deer hunting is really all about.

to who?

[fasteddie]

That is an excellent thought. In fact one of the best holidays for that is anytime during the Thanksgiving week. The kids have the whole week off and normally it is an excellent week of deer hunting. The fact is that Thanksgiving week usually gives the opportunity to get friends and relatives an opportunity to interface with the new hunter to show the camaraderie and social aspects of deer hunting rather than picking times when all of these people are excluded from participation. When you are trying to pick the ideal situations for hunting introduction, pick a time that is representative of what deer hunting is really all about.

 

But Doc , that would interfere with Dad's hunting . What if the buck of a lifetime came along . Would the dad let little Billie Bob shoot it or would he do the shooting !

The kiddies won't want to sit long in the cold and might never go out again . 

[Doc]

But Doc , that would interfere with Dad's hunting . What if the buck of a lifetime came along . Would the dad let little Billie Bob shoot it or would he do the shooting !

The kiddies won't want to sit long in the cold and might never go out again . 

Lol ...... Some would probably shove the kid to the ground and take the shot themselves. Well, what the hell, then the kid would learn what hunting in that family was really like. Who knows that same dad would probably yank the gun out of the youngster's hands and shoot the deer even during the youth season ..... ha-ha-ha.

 

No seriously, I think that all these ideas are predicated on the fact that the mentors are basically decent people who are interested in getting the kid into hunting. If they are not, any mentored program will fail.

 

The problem is that we seem to be trying to scam kids into hunting. We give them an unrealistic idea of what conditions and situations are in the hope that when they really do start hunting they won't notice that it can get damned cold out there. And I do think that introduction opportunities are being lost when hunting friends and relatives and the social aspects of hunting are excluded from that introduction.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 And I do think that introduction opportunities are being lost when hunting friends and relatives and the social aspects of hunting are excluded from that introduction.

 

I think this point is lost and can't be emphasized enough. the "modern" approach to hunting is much different than it used to be. There is a focus on hunting alone (or with one buddy) and taking a low pressure approach to get that wall mounter giant. Our hunting has gotten just like the kids sports. it is an all year event. trail cams, shed hunting. scent control, food plots, tree stand setting and on and on. Years ago it was more of a social event. As a very young kid I spent many a freezing day tagging along with Dad. I didn't look forward to sitting for hours on a hot seat in inadequate clothing, clinching a lighter fluid filled hand warmer for dear life becasue it was fun. The few minutes surrounding getting a deer every couple years was fun but it was the social aspect that was the draw for me. The stories, the ribbing each other, the tailgate lunches on state land parking areas, the early morning breakfasts and hearing the game plan for the day laid out like some Super Bowl chalk board talk. playing cards at night at a ratty old camp and having a dinner that would about harden your arteries from the first bite. Today it seems for many like more of an individual sport.  it's a shame, I miss those days.  

[Doc]

I remember our driveway looking lie a parking lot when all the family got together for deer hunting. The air was full of stories (some of them true) and the strategy sessions, the joking and some of those meals that the ladies of the family would put on. I think that whole atmosphere is what really kept me in an anxious condition while waiting to get old enough to hunt. Hanging on every word, enjoying all the enthusiasm, it all made me want to be a part of it all. None of that happens when a kid's introduction to hunting happens in the absence of all that and at a time when all those characters are excluded.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I wonder if we are the cause or a symptom, Doc. Has the sport shifted the priorities or has the change to a solo or small group mentality just an inevitable reaction to the dicing up of the large tracts of land that used to be around. Back in the days that I talked about we covered a lot of land in a day. I know the parcels we hunted back then (state land aside) have been diced up, developed and are no longer open to a group of that size. 

[G-Man]

I wonder if we are the cause or a symptom, Doc. Has the sport shifted the priorities or has the change to a solo or small group mentality just an inevitable reaction to the dicing up of the large tracts of land that used to be around. Back in the days that I talked about we covered a lot of land in a day. I know the parcels we hunted back then (state land aside) have been diced up, developed and are no longer open to a group of that size.

I agree with that, can't tell you number of times someone I hunt with and I are out and they are showing off the buck they got at my place to someone,then they get up and the person they showed the photo to leans over and says well that's the last time they will be hunting your place huh.. I seriously have to explain to them that I don't have friends down to not shoot big deer. They then mutter under their breath that if someone shot a buck like that on their place they wouldn't have them back!

That in a nut she'll is the cause of most hunting arguments, selfishness that someone else is going to get their game... it's mostly the reason behind posting land, limitations for guests to shoot, why a certain weapon isn't or shouldn't be allowed on their property or used at all. So yes hunting has become a small group event vs a large gathering of friends and family, the desire to protect what it theirs is the underlying theme

[Doc]

I wonder if we are the cause or a symptom, Doc. Has the sport shifted the priorities or has the change to a solo or small group mentality just an inevitable reaction to the dicing up of the large tracts of land that used to be around. Back in the days that I talked about we covered a lot of land in a day. I know the parcels we hunted back then (state land aside) have been diced up, developed and are no longer open to a group of that size. 

The parcel size has definitely shrunk as farms went out of business and the land got divided, and then divided some more and divided even more. Forested land has had a revival in financial worth as city dwellers decided they wanted a nice little place in the woods. I have been around a lot of years and watched all my hunting spots being built up. So what you are saying is true. And I guess we are both the cause and the symptom.

 

I remember laughing at people who used to rant and rave about over-population. I'm not sure whether their vision of over-population was the same as mine, but I sure do agree with them today. There really are too damned many people infesting the U.S. these days. It shows up in every facet of life, and hunting is just one of them.

[G-Man]

As to why they put youth in bow during Columbus day weekend.

1. Bow use to start the 15th of October and this would of been weekend before (it was in the works before Oct 1st change)

2. There aren't any Columbus day parade,or school events that may take away possible participants.

3. Longer holiday weeks are usually family vacation time in today's society ,so participation would again be limited.

That's all I found on that line of thought

I have only seen 1 or 2 kids out that youth season but if it beings in any new non hunting kids under a mentor it's worth sharing the woods with them.

[jjb4900]

I wonder if we are the cause or a symptom, Doc. Has the sport shifted the priorities or has the change to a solo or small group mentality just an inevitable reaction to the dicing up of the large tracts of land that used to be around. Back in the days that I talked about we covered a lot of land in a day. I know the parcels we hunted back then (state land aside) have been diced up, developed and are no longer open to a group of that size. 

I think that today's hunter is part of the problem.....as Doc mentioned, the atmosphere has totally changed, I remember as a kid the buildup to the hunt was just as much fun as the hunt, if not more. I remember getting together weeks before the opening week hunt to plan the weekly menu with the entire group, going shopping for the supplies, the packing and preparing, the drive up with everyone, the setting up of camp, we had the whole weekend before the Monday opener to meet with other camps and socialize.....the night after opening day was pretty exciting too, seeing what everyone got, driving around to see what everyone had hanging and hearing stories. Today it seems to have evolved into a solo event with more focus on personal satisfaction then anything else, it's more rushed too...get home from work, toss everything into the car and race to fit a few days in and rush back home, not much fun for the kids if you ask me. I hate to say it, but there also seems to be a huge amount of selfishness and secrecy with today's deer hunter as well.

[Skillet]

The parcel size has definitely shrunk as farms went out of business and the land got divided, and then divided some more and divided even more. Forested land has had a revival in financial worth as city dwellers decided they wanted a nice little place in the woods. I have been around a lot of years and watched all my hunting spots being built up. So what you are saying is true. And I guess we are both the cause and the symptom.

I remember laughing at people who used to rant and rave about over-population. I'm not sure whether their vision of over-population was the same as mine, but I sure do agree with them today. There really are too damned many people infesting the U.S. these days. It shows up in every facet of life, and hunting is just one of them.

Too many people "infesting"? So you would prefer less hunters out there?