Antler restrictions success? ?

[G-Man]

http://averagehunter.com/12-years-record-book-whitetails/

Interesting article and rankings of states then and now.. I would think with an entire state doing ar's Pennsylvania would be way ahead of New York ... doesn't seem that way...

.

[Larry]

Look at it like this Pa. has had AR’s for 14 years with up to 4pt’s on one side, and they just reach about 60% of the bucks kill are 2 1/2 years and older. So 40% are still 1 1/2 years old. (It’s called high grading)
Here in NY with little in the way of AR’s we stand at 52% of the bucks taken are 2 ½ years and older. So maybe in 5 or 6 years with passing on smaller bucks being now promoted we could be at the 60% mark and no one will be forced into AR’s. It will be just a attitude change.

[G-Man]

Yes buy if you believe all the ar propaganda, bug bucks running everywhere is the feeling they try to tell.you will happen ,yet in rankings a non ar state is comparable to the ar state.. with in a deer or two entered in the books.. I would think you would never see ny in the top 25 anytime the way people push them, and pa is only the same with mandatory ar.. so all I can say is I'm glad nys hasn't gone to statewide ar's as it doesn't seem to be nessary as far as book bucks go..

[Larry]

Most of the top deer hunting states don’t have AR’s

[kpkot]

Very interesting read thanks. Ok closest state to us making the top 5 is Ohio. Tell me what are they doing we are not? I understand soil, land access,climate, etc all play a role, but is there anything we can do that a similar state is doing to improve?

[ATbuckhunter]

Most of the top deer hunting states don’t have AR’s

True, but they also have something in abundance that NY does not have...primo farm land with amazing soil. Many people don't know the kind of difference that can make. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Most of the top deer hunting states don’t have AR’s

So True!  But they also dont have seasons that last into months. 30 day season for all implements and its over, with no guns in any part of the rut. Bring that type of season on and Ny would be in the top 10 best places to hunt...Instead of the worst.

[G-Man]

I agree no guns in rut and shorter seasons would be the big difference, pretty much true for ohio,iowa, kansas,ect split season seem to be much better.

[G-Man]

I was really just comparing ny and pa, similar seasons, hunter numbers, and habitat, main difference is ars.. and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference according to the article .....

[dbHunterNY]

It blows my mind ARs are talked about so much and people have them so messed up. Can't compare big buck states with states with state mandated ARs. It's not comparing the same thing. ARs based on spread and/or points are meant to be a tool to protect certain younger age classes. If you want big bucks with ARs then make them based on scoring system inches of bone. I don't see states doing that so why do people continue to think mandated ARs are meant for inches of antler? Blows my mind.

[Doc]

It blows my mind ARs are talked about so much and people have them so messed up. Can't compare big buck states with states with state mandated ARs. It's not comparing the same thing. ARs based on spread and/or points are meant to be a tool to protect certain younger age classes. If you want big bucks with ARs then make them based on scoring system inches of bone. I don't see states doing that so why do people continue to think mandated ARs are meant for inches of antler? Blows my mind.

I still have a problem imagining hunters running through the woods with their tape measures trying to catch up with a buck to measure its antlers.....lol. Seriously, the more complex you make the legal harvest system, the more dead and rotting deer there will be left in the woods when hunters find out that antlers suffer that "ground-shrink" because they are not as good at "estimating" antler numbers on the hoof as they thought they were. We already have problems with hunters seeing 3" antlers where there are none.

[G-Man]

It blows my mind ARs are talked about so much and people have them so messed up. Can't compare big buck states with states with state mandated ARs. It's not comparing the same thing. ARs based on spread and/or points are meant to be a tool to protect certain younger age classes. If you want big bucks with ARs then make them based on scoring system inches of bone. I don't see states doing that so why do people continue to think mandated ARs are meant for inches of antler? Blows my mind.

Ar's are meant to make animal older which makes more inches of antler.. managing a herd for mature deer is different. Antlers don't matter it's age. I agree ar's are not the answer as this article clearly shows, pa and ny are still about the same, regardless of Pennsylvania using a form of statewide ar for 14 years. So using this why have ar's at all?

[Larry]

Hey AT here in western NY we have good soil and still have farms it’s not like the south eastern part of the state. A 1 ½ year old buck can weight 160lb and have an 8pt rack. Where I hunt, I very rarely see spikes. With a lot of us passing on small bucks I see no need for AR’s. For those who shoot the first legal buck that comes by have at it. It’s not up to me to tell you what shoot or not shoot and I will shake your hand and congratulate you on getting a deer.

[ATbuckhunter]

Hey AT here in western NY we have good soil and still have farms it’s not like the south eastern part of the state. A 1 ½ year old buck can weight 160lb and have an 8pt rack. Where I hunt, I very rarely see spikes. With a lot of us passing on small bucks I see no need for AR’s. For those who shoot the first legal buck that comes by have at it. It’s not up to me to tell you what shoot or not shoot and I will shake your hand and congratulate you on getting a deer.

Yes I know Western NY has some of the best soil in NY, which is a reason why the deer heard is much healthier out there and there tend to be bigger racked deer out there. But many other parts of the state do not have access to the same top grade soil. Also the soil in those top states are actually even better than what we have here. 

[dbHunterNY]

I still have a problem imagining hunters running through the woods with their tape measures trying to catch up with a buck to measure its antlers.....lol. Seriously, the more complex you make the legal harvest system, the more dead and rotting deer there will be left in the woods when hunters find out that antlers suffer that "ground-shrink" because they are not as good at "estimating" antler numbers on the hoof as they thought they were. We already have problems with hunters seeing 3" antlers where there are none.

 

the tape measure joke I probably hear a good 2 dozen times per season from different people.  at first I laughed from the joke and now I laugh because I almost know when it's coming.  Even the more complex antler restrictions that are in place on many co-ops  in the half dozen WMUs around here aren't bad.  some are more strict.  most are 15" outside and 3 points on each side.  it's basically the width of relaxed ears.  DEC ECO's can and do use discretion.  also who's to say what a fine would or could be if it were implemented on a larger scale where it could be more of a concern.  If a hunter leaves a deer to rot in the woods just to not get caught I think they're most likely doing a lot more questionable stuff to be concerned about.  hunters deal with them every season of the year throughout the country.  I truly don't like ARs in general because it's a when all else fails approach that can have very limited results.  however, when dealing with the general hunting public, it's the easiest to implement and you still get results so i'm for them if done right.  I'd much rather see hunters in general voluntarily pass yearling bucks, know why doing that is a good thing, realize if that buck gets shot it's not the end of the world, and be open to some reasons someone chose not to pass it (assuming it's not just a "screw everyone else. I got mine.")

[skiop]

Very interesting read thanks. Ok closest state to us making the top 5 is Ohio. Tell me what are they doing we are not? I understand soil, land access,climate, etc all play a role, but is there anything we can do that a similar state is doing to improve?

 They have a one week gun season

[dbHunterNY]

Ar's are meant to make animal older which makes more inches of antler.. managing a herd for mature deer is different. Antlers don't matter it's age. I agree ar's are not the answer as this article clearly shows, pa and ny are still about the same, regardless of Pennsylvania using a form of statewide ar for 14 years. So using this why have ar's at all?

 

AR's don't make an animal that much older.  if they are they're probably over reaching.  protecting completely respectable more biologically mature bucks or say putting more hunter pressure on the best bucks of a younger age class that would have the most potential.  state mandated AR's based on 3 or less points on at least one side though will never have anything to do with mature bucks and the bigger antlers they most likely will carry.  most of the time they're limits are protecting a portion of yearlings.  in some cases there's nice 2.5 yr old bucks that are respectable enough to mount on the wall, for your average hunter to be proud of, and still think it's possible to get bigger.  i'd argue that it's nothing on a scale as to effect antler size surveyed across a state as showing a huge difference.  as you said this article more or less proves it.  so why have it at all?  I don't care or need to be in a whitetail mecca state where I have to compete with outfitters and other lease seekers willing to empty a stuffed wallet for just a place to hunt.  just a small improvement will go a long way.  I think simply giving the average hunter in a lesser area a better opportunity at a 2.5+ year old that meets that threshold for justifying a taxidermist bill or a chance to experience more buck behavior in the woods is a reason why.  I think knowing that there will be more yearling bucks to help with the deer population stability, productivity, and health is another great reason, despite not being a focus on bigger antlers.  I acknowledge in some areas it'd have little effect where many are already taking 2.5+ yr olds or many yearlings would still be allowed to harvest, seemingly more common further into western ny.  At that point it's effecting your opportunity to harvest whatever walks by much less, so AR's should be less of a concern and have less of any negative effect.

[dbHunterNY]

Very interesting read thanks. Ok closest state to us making the top 5 is Ohio. Tell me what are they doing we are not? I understand soil, land access,climate, etc all play a role, but is there anything we can do that a similar state is doing to improve?

 

they have loads of outfitters across the state with minimum antler size requirements allowing a hunter to take a buck, completely separate from state dnr regulations.  going hand in hand with that your average joe hunter (even non-resident from NY) expects to have opportunity to shoot a bigger buck there versus here because they're around.  there's more people in general passing up younger deer to shoot older deer because they usually have bigger antlers.  you shoot what you see.  if you see yearlings running all over the place and on occasion something bigger you'll probably hold out for and shoot something bigger.  if you only see on occasion yearlings because nothing is in place to protect them, then you'll probably be tempted to shoot a yearling.

[dbHunterNY]

 They have a one week gun season

 

....definitely, and that most effective weapon isn't allowed during the most effective time to kill a buck.

[Doc]

the tape measure joke I probably hear a good 2 dozen times per season from different people.  at first I laughed from the joke and now I laugh because I almost know when it's coming.  Even the more complex antler restrictions that are in place on many co-ops  in the half dozen WMUs around here aren't bad.  some are more strict.  most are 15" outside and 3 points on each side.  it's basically the width of relaxed ears.  DEC ECO's can and do use discretion.  also who's to say what a fine would or could be if it were implemented on a larger scale where it could be more of a concern.  If a hunter leaves a deer to rot in the woods just to not get caught I think they're most likely doing a lot more questionable stuff to be concerned about.  hunters deal with them every season of the year throughout the country.  I truly don't like ARs in general because it's a when all else fails approach that can have very limited results.  however, when dealing with the general hunting public, it's the easiest to implement and you still get results so i'm for them if done right.  I'd much rather see hunters in general voluntarily pass yearling bucks, know why doing that is a good thing, realize if that buck gets shot it's not the end of the world, and be open to some reasons someone chose not to pass it (assuming it's not just a "screw everyone else. I got mine.")

I can see some of the more exotic methods of AR being used on co-ops or as arbitrary rules on private hunting lands. No one is risking fines or public embarrassment when mistakes are made. That's not quite the same as putting such stuff in the state law books.

 

Another thing that I don't like about spread-type AR is the requirement that you must get a look at the deer in a face on situation in order to even see the distance between antlers. My set-ups, or what I generally try to have for a set-up is a stand that is perpendicular to deer trails or the path that I am guessing the deer will take. That gets me the high-percentage broadside shot that I prefer (especially for bow hunting). I have no interest in drawing the deer's attention to myself by using noises or whatever to get him to turn his head toward me so I can determine if it is legal.

 

Another problem is the assumptions borne of frustration at not seeing the deer's spread that some hunters will make that a tall rack is always a wide rack. The internal conversation goes kind of like this: "With tines that big, he has to be a legal spread". Well unfortunately there is no such correlation, and once again there is another opportunity for an unintended violation.

 

And finally, no law should be written hoping that ECOs will "use discretion".

[LET EM GROW]

Making regular season shorter, and adjusting others seasons as well, is what would make this state a true trophy producer, like the rest. NOT ANTLER RESTRICTIONS. Just look at spring turkey season here, the dec wont let us hunt them until AFTER the majority of the breeding has at least begun. To give the hens a chance to be bred, and increase turkey populations. Its basically the same thing, by keeping the best and most efficient weapons out of the peak breeding cycles during the whitetail rut...

[growalot]

I'd like to ask this question, When the DEC collects the # of points on buck kills, why do they not release the numbers to the public? As a hunter when they say this % of 2 1/2 yr. old buck were taken, I'd like to see how many deer with 8 pt's or more were registered in that #.  Also the the #'s in low points as well. The DEC should realize by now we as a group believe what we see ,in most cases.

As far as a campaign for bigger buck goes they need to then explain some areas of NYS produce 1 1/2 yr. old 8pts,then describe what to look for in body characteristics to get an older deer,if that's what they want.

 

Farmers replenish just what they need in their soils to produce the best crop they have planted in said soil. It's all about $$$

This does not mean it is enough of what growing antler tissue needs to grow. Deer in NY have to rely on natural woodland/habitat browse in early spring ,when there are relatively few farm crops about and antler growth is started. NYS does not have the all around soils requirements of some other states. I would surmise that at least some of the huge racked deer we see in NYS perhaps had some help from one or maybe many local people in it's home range. Lets face it, when you guys see carts filled with deer blocks ,gals. of goo or bags of minerals...it's not all going to deer,goat,sheep farms. Nor  are they all headed to states that allow the use of mineral supplements.

 

The other reason I would think there has been a turnaround on some hunters trigger break,is game cameras. When one  can see the number, size and growth of deer in the area. They now have incentive to consider holding off, if a wall mount is what they want. Cameras are less expensive, smaller, less costly to run and lighter . Many more hunters are using them...even if many are not, the pictures of those that do in different parts of the state are being posted on the net for all to see.

Edited May 9, 2016 by growalot

[nyantler]

I agree no guns in rut and shorter seasons would be the big difference, pretty much true for ohio,iowa, kansas,ect split season seem to be much better.

Although this might be the answer for NY if the goal is bigger bucks... If you think there is an uproar over antler restrictions, you haven't seen anything until you take away hunting days AND not allow gun hunting during the rut here in NY. Many here have said that AR's would cause a huge number of hunters to drop out of the ranks... shorter seasons and no guns during rut would have the same, if not worse, effect. Those that used the drop out of hunting defense for no AR's don't seem to have a problem with hunters dropping out when it comes to their view of how to have more big bucks. How is restricting antler size any different than restricting when and with what weapon you can take a buck... if in fact your only goal is to have bigger bucks?

[Curmudgeon]

Although this might be the answer for NY if the goal is bigger bucks... If you think there is an uproar over antler restrictions, you haven't seen anything until you take away hunting days AND not allow gun hunting during the rut here in NY. Many here have said that AR's would cause a huge number of hunters to drop out of the ranks... shorter seasons and no guns during rut would have the same, if not worse, effect. Those that used the drop out of hunting defense for no AR's don't seem to have a problem with hunters dropping out when it comes to their view of how to have more big bucks. How is restricting antler size any different than restricting when and with what weapon you can take a buck... if in fact your only goal is to have bigger bucks?

 

And, how would it affect new hunter recruitment?

 

[dbHunterNY]

I can see some of the more exotic methods of AR being used on co-ops or as arbitrary rules on private hunting lands. No one is risking fines or public embarrassment when mistakes are made. That's not quite the same as putting such stuff in the state law books.

 

Another thing that I don't like about spread-type AR is the requirement that you must get a look at the deer in a face on situation in order to even see the distance between antlers. My set-ups, or what I generally try to have for a set-up is a stand that is perpendicular to deer trails or the path that I am guessing the deer will take. That gets me the high-percentage broadside shot that I prefer (especially for bow hunting). I have no interest in drawing the deer's attention to myself by using noises or whatever to get him to turn his head toward me so I can determine if it is legal.

 

Another problem is the assumptions borne of frustration at not seeing the deer's spread that some hunters will make that a tall rack is always a wide rack. The internal conversation goes kind of like this: "With tines that big, he has to be a legal spread". Well unfortunately there is no such correlation, and once again there is another opportunity for an unintended violation.

 

And finally, no law should be written hoping that ECOs will "use discretion".

 

I don't expect you to understand the situation, but I assure you the risk on a co-op is very real.  Sure DEC isn't dragging them away with a citation or cuffs, that's not what we want.  Public ridicule is definitely there.  I've even had to diffuse some heated conversations where people were giving it right to the hunter who made or in one thought he made a mistake, and I'm one of the few that are the reason the restrictions were implemented.  Other situations were hunters getting told by the landowner to learn what happened and if it still continues to happen they'd have to find another place to hunt, even after hunting there for years.

 

my point isn't so much as what the state should or shouldn't do if pursuing ARs, but that hunters can and do deal with more complicated ones just fine.  I'm actually shocked with how little issues we actually do have or have heard of and how quickly the public finds out about deer that didn't make the cut.  your second paragraph about the deer being broadsided we heard none stop back when the spread restriction first came into play.  I type this in the sincerest way, you setting up a deer so it's broadsided as much as possible is the same as the rest of us.  making noises to stop a deer in all honesty happens more on TV shows than in real life.  I don't expect you to notice how often you can get a look at spread, because you don't have to.  there are times where a buck might not look your way, but I assure you bucks don't live their lives eyes straight forward.

 

finally, I'm not implying we should expect an ECO to look the other way or let you off when you're clearly at fault.  what I mean is ECO's are more likely to rely on the same visual inspection that lasts fractions of a second and at their discretion choose to take a another look.  they don't have the time and wouldn't be stopping every vehicle busting out a tape measure.  even so, honest mistakes do at times get off with warnings.  happened already this spring.  youth hunter with his dad turned themselves in.  one shot multiple jakes.

ARs don't have to be all doom and gloom.  I do think that NYS DEC should be open and realistic about what they're trying to achieve with them and not just say "hey people who are hunting in areas with ARs thinking it's the hunting is better", especially with any future push to expand them.  They should especially be hammering home why they just took a stance on preferring hunters pass yearling bucks.  "Because DEC said so." isn't a good enough answer and so far that's all so hunters know from what I'm hearing.