Rescinding antlerless in early bow in 8n

[WNYBuckHunter]

16 hours ago, stubby68 said:

                     I never said it was ok to do that to bow season and not to gun. I said that a if it were done  to gun season it would leave very little time for hunters to fill the other tags. It leaves 6 weeks or more to fill tage if done in bow season.

                        I also never said a bow is as effective as a gun. You keep saying that a bow is not effective for keeping deer numbers down. Insimply pointed out that other states have no problem doing it with bow being the main weapon and longest season. A fact that you seem to ignore. If otHer states can have a week or evev couple days for gun and up to 2 months for bow that means the bows do well at controlling there herd. Right?

You might want to look into what weapons are legal for what in the states that use ARCHERY seasons to lower numbers in small areas effectively, because they arent just using vertical bows. You also need to look into all of the other numbers and factors involved with those other states. Hunter numbers and density, overall deer numbers, harvest numbers, how the land is broken up, access laws, etc. All of that has an effect on the outcome of that state's deer season. You cant always look at the end result and automatically assume the same would happen in a different situation.

 

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

18 hours ago, stubby68 said:

     And again when and where did they say kill doe or else we will put guns in bow season. If  I am wrong show me and I will admitt it. I admitted Gros didn't bring up the buck tag first. Every time you people can not show prove that you are right and I am wrong you ignore  the points made and say no use. SO PROVE ME WRONG

It was actually outlined in their plan. If the step #? to implement a doe only in bow doesn't work, an early ML season would be introduced, and possibly IN bow season. DEC was clear in their plan. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

17 hours ago, stubby68 said:

                  Not Least effective weapon. Least effective hunters.

30 - 40 yard average effective range VS 200 - 250 yard average effective range

 

Yeah, its the hunter thats less effective.....

[stoneam2006]

30 - 40 yard average effective range VS 200 - 250 yard average effective range

 

Yeah, its the hunter thats less effective.....

Idk I see the argument both ways....deer are easier to hunt during bow season before all the blasts come...Wich to me means bow season if done correctly is probably the most effective way to reduce numbers as your not going to scare them off the property or into hiding

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[stubby68]

it says early muzzy in september was in the plan. Then it says It was discussed as maybe be in bow. It does not and did not say there will be guns in bow season if they didn't kill does.

[stubby68]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

You might want to look into what weapons are legal for what in the states that use ARCHERY seasons to lower numbers in small areas effectively, because they arent just using vertical bows. You also need to look into all of the other numbers and factors involved with those other states. Hunter numbers and density, overall deer numbers, harvest numbers, how the land is broken up, access laws, etc. All of that has an effect on the outcome of that state's deer season. You cant always look at the end result and automatically assume the same would happen in a different situation.

 

 

                      Remember this the next time someone says that NY dec needs to manage like other states so we can have big bucks like they do.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

30 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

it says early muzzy in september was in the plan. Then it says It was discussed as maybe be in bow. It does not and did not say there will be guns in bow season if they didn't kill does.

If the objective #2 wasn't met then an early ML season would be introduced. It does NOT say September (although that is when I think it makes the most sense). I can tell you from personal conversations September wasn't their first choice. 

[stubby68]

8 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

If the objective #2 wasn't met then an early ML season would be introduced. It does NOT say September (although that is when I think it makes the most sense). I can tell you from personal conversations September wasn't their first choice. 

You are right . It says September in part 1 not 2. Part 2 does not say when it would be. I was wrong

[fasteddie]

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 hours ago, stubby68 said:

                      Remember this the next time someone says that NY dec needs to manage like other states so we can have big bucks like they do.

 

Why do I have to remember what I said when someone else makes a statement?

[stubby68]

                          Because it will not be long before someone starts saying the NY should shorten gun season and manage its herd like states like Ohio, Kansas,or any other state that is known for good bucks. Then we could have big bucks.

                          Same things that you stated for bows being able to help maintain population in other states and not in NY ,are the things that make those states able to have lots of big bucks when NY has fewer. yet those things are dismissed when someone wants bigger bucks. It is always the gun hunter that is the problem . those other things are ignored.

[dbHunterNY]

trying to make one state like another isn't even feasible.  you can look at a specific thing another state does and debate how it'll effect our situation but to push toward making our state like another is absolutely ridiculous.  there are so many variables that will never match up, you're time would be better served staring at your own rearend while spinning around in circles. stop equating our state to others.  this state can be awesome and already is in some areas or properties.  quit worrying about what's over the stateline and worry about what's in front of you. while you're at it talk and try to work with your neighbors.  they're possibly is not the evil bambi vultures ruining your hunting that you think they are.

Edited August 11, 2016 by dbHunterNY

[phade]

Ohio matches up real well actually - most people don't realize or want to admit it.

Similar hunting pressure rates, similar forested to ag rates, similar soil quality breakdowns, similar a lot of things. Do we take Ohio's systems and make it ours? No, but I can tell you without a doubt, if we did, we wouldn't be worrying about the BS this thread contains. Ohio is a machine with surgical precision at addressing population dynamics - they've proven it year in and year out. Just look at the changes they've made to antlerless tags, season dates and lengths, etc.

Perfect? nope. But sure as heck a lot better of a starting point than what we have here with the inmates running the asylum.

Edited August 11, 2016 by phade

[Doc]

7 hours ago, stoneam2006 said:

Idk I see the argument both ways....deer are easier to hunt during bow season before all the blasts come...Wich to me means bow season if done correctly is probably the most effective way to reduce numbers as your not going to scare them off the property or into hiding

 

 

 

I don't know exactly how many times that I and many others have said, "If only I had had a gun instead of a bow, that deer would have been mine." I feel confident shooting at deer with ranges up to 150+ yards well rested with my scoped .270. Many others can do much better with their deer rifles. My maximum range with a bow is 35 yards, and I really prefer 20 yards. How on earth can anyone compare the two when it comes to efficiency. Is it really true that early deer are easier before the guns start banging? Not if you know how to use the pressure from other gun hunters. If I want to reduce any segment of the deer herd, realistically, I would take my .270 and let the other hunters move the deer for me with their movement and noise and their filling the woods with scent. I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that point. Hang around a deer processor some opening day of gun season and see just how effective modern firearms really are compared to bow kills. I see them corded up like firewood every time I cart my deer over to our processor, and that is not just opening day. Any day in bowseason ........ not so much (or even close) 

[G-Man]

i have not been in 8n and h but  have been in 9f 9h 9a many times, small woodlots housing in developments surrounded by abandoned family farms some still operating, all private land, no stateland,and  some county land in given areas. you specfic town may not have the problem dmu are large and deer are in pockets, set back for bow was done to aid in the 2 week doe only seaon in these areas especially.as you may only get access to 3 or 5 acre lots...

[G-Man]

9 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

30 - 40 yard average effective range VS 200 - 250 yard average effective range

 

Yeah, its the hunter thats less effective.....

yes.  much less effective hunters. getting close to game is what a effective hunter does, a shooter takes targets at range paper or live..

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

I don't know exactly how many times that I and many others have said, "If only I had had a gun instead of a bow, that deer would have been mine." I feel confident shooting at deer with ranges up to 150+ yards well rested with my scoped .270. Many others can do much better with their deer rifles. My maximum range with a bow is 35 yards, and I really prefer 20 yards. How on earth can anyone compare the two when it comes to efficiency. Is it really true that early deer are easier before the guns start banging? Not if you know how to use the pressure from other gun hunters. If I want to reduce any segment of the deer herd, realistically, I would take my .270 and let the other hunters move the deer for me with their movement and noise and their filling the woods with scent. I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that point. Hang around a deer processor some opening day of gun season and see just how effective modern firearms really are compared to bow kills. I see them corded up like firewood every time I cart my deer over to our processor, and that is not just opening day. Any day in bowseason ........ not so much (or even close)

it comes down to this bow hunters were given an oppertunity to show that they could manage numbers and they chose not to..thats it , wether it was because extra doe tags werent available then or if it was well i want a buck and if i shoot that doe i cant get the monster that may follow it in the rut past my stand.. or the dec said do it or else! The end result will they will implement another method to achieve the desired result , be it full inclusion of x-bow or special gun season, or muzzleloader early... fact is we as hunters failed and there are concequences.....

bow are effecient, and effective weapons and almost everyone at camp gets a deer with bow a few might take 2 or 3 with bow, we have an 80% success rate with bow and a 40% with gun as everyone has meat in freezer and is waiting for that booner it seems..

hunter attitudes is it ...not weapon or season legnth.. if it was all the other states would be passing doe waiting for that big guy to walk by, but looking at weekly number from mannd checkpoints in ohio you can see they are filling freezers immediatly using those less effecient bows, instead of just waiting till gun...

[Doc]

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 6:50 PM, G-Man said:

it comes down to this bow hunters were given an oppertunity to show that they could manage numbers and they chose not to..thats it , wether it was because extra doe tags werent available then or if it was well i want a buck and if i shoot that doe i cant get the monster that may follow it in the rut past my stand.. or the dec said do it or else! The end result will they will implement another method to achieve the desired result , be it full inclusion of x-bow or special gun season, or muzzleloader early... fact is we as hunters failed and there are concequences.....

bow are effecient, and effective weapons and almost everyone at camp gets a deer with bow a few might take 2 or 3 with bow, we have an 80% success rate with bow and a 40% with gun as everyone has meat in freezer and is waiting for that booner it seems..

hunter attitudes is it ...not weapon or season legnth.. if it was all the other states would be passing doe waiting for that big guy to walk by, but looking at weekly number from mannd checkpoints in ohio you can see they are filling freezers immediatly using those less effecient bows, instead of just waiting till gun...

No, it really comes down to the fact that bowhunters could not see a reason why they were the ones singled out to do an impossible job and then told that they would be punished if they didn't do it. Bowhunters also detected a lack of credibility as far as the DEC being serious about a doe reduction plan that uses the least efficient weapon.

In terms of the muzzleloader threat in bow season, I think that that is the real motivation behind targeting bow hunters with this impossible challenge. The DEC made no secret of their desire to jam firearms (principally muzzleloaders) into bow season since they tried a decade ago to do exactly that. What better way to achieve that desire than to give bowhunters an impossible challenge with a firearms ultimatum if they don't succeed?

[G-Man]

It's not an. Impossible task, it's used effectively in others area

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[Doc]

22 hours ago, G-Man said:

It's not an. Impossible task, it's used effectively in others area

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It is used in urban and suburban areas where firearms are not allowed. That's not exactly comparing apple to apples. Yes, the cities have nearly domesticated herds of deer which could be hunted with a cube of sugar and a club. But when you are talking a wild herd as they are in the areas effected here in NYS, trying to control populations with bows is an impossible task.

[G-Man]

And yet we can take 5 to 8 doe out of the wild in October withbow at camp every year our archery success rate is near 80% every year with 100% done several times... not impossible.. it really comes down to hunter attitudes. . Today's "bows" are so high tech practice is minimally required as pins, peep, and kisser buttons are set hard back walls , releases, 80% let off , smooth cams.. using traditional equipment I'd agree with you. Not with the modern stuff.
But we fall under the assumption bow is so hard. Yet many of the members here kill their deer 1st time out. You see it In the hunting success threads. And threads on long shots that we may or may not agree with ethically. The equipment allows this with practice. If we miss it's our fault no the equipment 99% of the time.

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[WNYBuckHunter]

On 8/11/2016 at 6:33 PM, G-Man said:

yes.  much less effective hunters. getting close to game is what a effective hunter does, a shooter takes targets at range paper or live..

That makes no sense, we are talking about what weapon the average hunter can use to kill deer efficiently (which turns into greater numbers). For the average person, they can kill more deer more efficiently with a gun. If you are arguing that fact, you are either arguing for the sake of arguing or you have no idea what you are talking about.

[G-Man]

10 % of hunters take 90% of the game.. and the average bow today is pretty easy to use
. My 12 year old.nephew is splitting noks at 20 yards after 2 day practice . Sights release kisser button.. and getting close to game is the key the average hunter tells.me head a 100 yard shot and it's much closer to 50.. and an average hunter usually doe not take up bow hunting under the premise it's too hard.. so your dealing with better than average hunters to begin with..

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[WNYBuckHunter]

I consider myself to be better than the average hunter and Ill tell you right now, I can kill more deer with a gun than a bow. It boils down to number of opportunities, and I have way more of them within the 250 yard mark than I do within the 40 yard mark.

[dbHunterNY]

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 4:28 PM, phade said:

Ohio matches up real well actually - most people don't realize or want to admit it.

Similar hunting pressure rates, similar forested to ag rates, similar soil quality breakdowns, similar a lot of things. Do we take Ohio's systems and make it ours? No, but I can tell you without a doubt, if we did, we wouldn't be worrying about the BS this thread contains. Ohio is a machine with surgical precision at addressing population dynamics - they've proven it year in and year out. Just look at the changes they've made to antlerless tags, season dates and lengths, etc.

Perfect? nope. But sure as heck a lot better of a starting point than what we have here with the inmates running the asylum.

threads still kicking so....

I agree ohio matches up well enough with NY, especially western ny, versus east of central ny.  expectations are definitely different out there in general when comparing this half of the states southern zone.

the way they have their doe take is flexible but controlled.  way it seems anyway.  NY relies way too much on the tendencies of the hunting population when it comes to doe harvest, versus actual controlled harvest.  ny with their nuisance permits is a joke.  not monitored at all and not in a season where you're shooting fawn dropping doe versus simple a deer.

part of what you've said though is my point.  it's not going to happen that we pick up theirs systems and hit reset.  there really is no starting over.  what systems are in place we're stuck with for the time being and have to work with them. 

that said not everything is legistlative.  DEC can change some stuff and I wish they would.  many comments thrown out have no grasp on the difference between the two.