Antler restrictions

[Buckmaster7600]

i've talked to a lot of people who hunt down there.  everything with the buck situation seems to be better i'm told.  i've even asked about high grading down there.  nobody seems to tell things are any worse in that respect.  it would make sense that with a property like yours where you're already voluntarily passing yearling bucks you wouldn't see much difference.   the ARs only protect a portion of yearlings.  deer numbers seem to be going down the crapper though i'm told.  in some WMUs doe tag allocation is ridiculously through the roof.  maybe that's it?  15 yrs there could definitely a trickle effect with a WMU draining numbers from neighboring ones.  i mean 4 times the DMP tags (for growalot) that we get up here per WMU and we have lots of ag ground to back up browse that'd be otherwise hammered more by the deer.  if that's the reason you say it now sucks then 5 more years isn't the fix.

In my area dmp's have been hard to get for the last 3 years. The biggest problem is the numbers are so low that the first buck a hunter sees that has 3 on a side is killed. The average yr and a half old buck in that area is a 5 or 6 pt.


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[chrisw]

So if you want a big buck and don't have them where you are, hop in the car and go get one. 

Yes, same goes for any deer. I drive an hour to hunt where I know better bucks live. There are always a few big bucks around and a lot of little ones, who promptly get flattened come gun season. I saw 12 bucks during archery last year, only 2 were 2.5+. I was lucky enough to arrow one of them. If just half of those little bucks were protected you wouldn't hear people complaining that the average buck was bigger or older. The "meat hunters" would never pass up a big buck, but they shoot the first small one because "there aren't any big ones." Those two go hand in hand. That's what annoys me, bitch about only seeing small bucks and they shoot everyone they see because "the next guy will." And to the people who say that big buck tastes bad will shoot said deer every chance they get. Everyone likes bigger bucks, to say the rack means nothing to you is extremely doubtful or you're in denial.

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[dbHunterNY]

39 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

In my area dmp's have been hard to get for the last 3 years. The biggest problem is the numbers are so low that the first buck a hunter sees that has 3 on a side is killed. The average yr and a half old buck in that area is a 5 or 6 pt.


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i don't know what the doe situation or habitat situation is in your area.  sounds like the AR's aren't restricting much of anything though.  a spike buck makes fawns drop no different than a 5-6pt yearling buck.  if you're getting late born fawns and recruitment sucks then the ARs weren't restrictive enough and the deer as productive as they could be. i feel like something else is probably the issue though.

[ATbuckhunter]

I don't get this mentality at all. So if a spike makes a 16 year old happy it's ok, if a spike makes an 80yr old happy it ok but if a spike makes a 30 year old happy it's a scrub buck and he's a crappy hunter? Once again who the F cares what others shoot, shoot what you want I'll shoot what I want and everyone is happy. Stop trying to push what you think is best on to everyone else.
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I get where your coming from. I always thought If it makes you happy go for it. But I'm seeing the positive benefits of AR's. I'm not pushing it on anyone, if you read my other comments you'll see I say I'm in favor of them but I don't want to push it on people. You can't deny the results of it though. Even the land owner of he place where I hunt in 3J says he's never seen as many big bucks as he's seen since the AR's were put in place.


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[growalot]

2 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

i mean 4 times the DMP tags (for growalot) that we get up here per WMU and we have lots of ag ground to back up browse that'd be otherwise hammered more by the deer.  

Your right and have I posted one doe shot?...one doe on cam pictures in day light?...one of the highest deer hunter densities. One of the highest doe (supposedly) densities and not more than one shot a day close by or miles away since the first 4 days. Went to sell my hide and they were all disgusted...hardly a deer brought in compared to other years and they personally weren't seeing them (entire family hunts....daughters sons, sons and daughter in-laws)...on hundreds of acres of farm lands. I've seen them, I've passed small ones but the doe and big buck have been on sanctuary properties...I know where they are...and now that it's safe will go for them.  Tags,plots,location does not always guarantee success..That doe from the other day...was bedded in a 6ft deep culvert ditch at 3 in the afternoon... BTW I never posted close to the bigger bucks that are in this area...VOLUNTEER AR's and a couple of no doe shooting properties... the most shooting ,other than behind our house was in the only local QDM farm. People here refuse to move on their property during season...it pushes deer to other properties...so they bed all day surrounded by lush natural browse...The DEC can give me 50 tags...If I don't see them in legal light ,if they are on no doe hunting properties,sanctuaries...BTW that's not just a word I use...it's signs put up by land owners... They may have well issued me toilet paper...it would feel better...

[ATbuckhunter]

8 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

 

so neither of you care about a less likely but probable chance that happened to this buck with growing 'mutt' antlers?  lol....exactly.  practically any hunter would be thrilled to take a fully mature 6.5+ yr old regardless of it's antlers.  it coming in with its brute like presence, maybe rubbing and snapping off a tree or kickin a$$ and showing other bucks who's boss, is more than enough for most hunters in my experience.  a deer that old isn't applicable to an antler restriction conversation because they aren't designed to protect bucks to full maturity.  the point is though that hunters can appreciate even a small increase in opportunity to hunt bucks with more age and dominance for their respective area.  maybe that just means more 2.5 or 3.5 yr olds with no to very little chance at seeing anything older.

A fully mature buck that's still a fork horn is the exception rather than a common thing. 

[dbHunterNY]

12 minutes ago, growalot said:

Your right and have I posted one doe shot?...one doe on cam pictures in day light?...one of the highest deer hunter densities. One of the highest doe (supposedly) densities and not more than one shot a day close by or miles away since the first 4 days. Went to sell my hide and they were all disgusted...hardly a deer brought in compared to other years and they personally weren't seeing them (entire family hunts....daughters sons, sons and daughter in-laws)...on hundreds of acres of farm lands. I've seen them, I've passed small ones but the doe and big buck have been on sanctuary properties...I know where they are...and now that it's safe will go for them.  Tags,plots,location does not always guarantee success..That doe from the other day...was bedded in a 6ft deep culvert ditch at 3 in the afternoon... BTW I never posted close to the bigger bucks that are in this area...VOLUNTEER AR's and a couple of no doe shooting properties... the most shooting ,other than behind our house was in the only local QDM farm. People here refuse to move on their property during season...it pushes deer to other properties...so they bed all day surrounded by lush natural browse...The DEC can give me 50 tags...If I don't see them in legal light ,if they are on no doe hunting properties,sanctuaries...BTW that's not just a word I use...it's signs put up by land owners... They may have well issued me toilet paper...it would feel better...

sorry i wasn't clear.  i'm referring to WMU 3j.... i can't see how neighboring WMU's can vary so much in DMP tag allocation. I clarified that i was talking about a DMP tag in that specific post so when you read it we'd be on the same page.  so i hoped.  i guess you took it as me calling you out for something for some reason i can't think of.  i know how the sanctuaries and sanctuary properties work.  we have them on every QDM co-op i know of out this way and each is their for different reasons.  we don't use the fancy signs though.  it's inviting to poachers and trespassers.  as if peeling back the bushes will reveal a utopia of monster bucks.  usually it's just portions of land that hold deer but aren't easily hunted without getting busted by every deer in there.

[dbHunterNY]

6 minutes ago, ATbuckhunter said:

A fully mature buck that's still a fork horn is the exception rather than a common thing. 

i agree

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Well I am bowing out. If this thread is like the other 100 on this forum it will be running for another 40 pages and I can catch up in June with the last few posts. I am never ever ever going to be in support of mandatory antler restrictions. I wholeheartedly agree with dbHunterNY on the benefits to the herd in helping with a more mature age structure. It really does increase the competition and you can see all the intense buck behavior that we read about. heavy scraping, hard chasing, fighting, bucks more receptive to calling and rattling. Makes for  a pretty intense afternoon when you hit it right. I just see the "mandatory" part of is as too big of a negative and the ends don't justify the means. I've put my shoulder behind the education and voluntary AR and really have people understand QDM. I really believe from what I have seen with hunters that I know well, that once they start experiencing the effects they get on board pretty quickly.  Reality is though, some just never will and I am ok with that too. 

[dbHunterNY]

4 hours ago, growalot said:

Here's a question I would like answered...How many of you saw buck this year with all or part of their racks broken off in bow season? Now why ask that question? Because of herd health...How healthy is it to have a herd where the breeding competition puts the best of the breeders in  fight to near death competitions. When you see these bucks walking around with only one side or many broken tines,ever ask yourself just how much power it takes to do that. What it does to deplete their energy reserves . This on top of the rigors of chasing and breeding doe. Then mind you, the possibility of severe weather setting in,  in the near future with little chance of rebuilding those reserves. I saw 3 half rack 8's and several broken up younger buck..even my little guy had broken tines...Now if you'd like, hit those questions with this little topping...mortal wounds  and infections how many go down from those before the possibility of starvation....

See the utopia that the AR's guys are begging for  has these little side effects... You nearly never hear them mention these things...just something to think about...

grow that happens in just about every whitetail population throughout their entire range.  it's been proven that if you don't have that fast quick breeding cycle where there's competition or at least enough bucks to get it done in one shot it's way worse.  28 days later they'll still be chasing them all over again in the dead of winter with significantly lesser quality food.  they should instead be recovering for winter.  i can't believe you'd took basic science of natural selection and survival of the fittest and tried to spin into something bad to use against ARs. i'm chaulking this post it up to emotions and dislike for ARs clouded your normally sane judgement.

[growalot]

When I speak of sanctuaries here..They are doe sanctuaries as well as buck..these are Do not shoot doe properties ...I didn't take what you said as calling me out ...my statement was an example of how assumptions are made about certain areas.  Some assume that the DEC is handing out doe tags like candy, thus all the doe are being shot...that's not the  case...look at Eddie's season...listen to Culvert...look at the harvest threads. Not because we want or are shooting small buck...but because doe are smarter,they do not have the biological imperative to seek their mate. BTW speaking of assumptions...No...... anyone that has tasted the difference between an older class buck and a younger one..Well if they are like me..you'd be surprised how many are like me...they'll gladly to a a good younger buck over the older one...Do you think that every guy out my way that has spotted the bucks I have,  hold off for just those few Deer knowing they are here? If that were the case,especially with the amount of cams in everyone's woods...you'd rarely hear a shot opening weekend or the next 3 weeks for that matter. They just want a good buck and some doe...like me not everyone has a need for a head on their wall. Ask me if I'd pass the  bigger deer if two appeared..Yes I've chosen a 8 over a 10, a 7 over a monster 8... best shot and a mercy...Mr B Has past some huge deer over the years for various reasons..I know people that go out but stopped shooting because they got their wall hanger...to be honest not a huge deer...but their trophy.Some now hunt with cameras,each photo being a trophy in it's own right...these threads end in me feeling sad for some hunters...

[Buckstopshere]

5 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I am in a camp in the Catskill where there has been AR for 5 or so years. I have seen little to no difference. 15 years ago it was awesome hunting now it sucks. On our 400acres we haven't saw a difference, maybe another 5 years is what it needs down there.

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Like in Pa. those guys need to wait another 10 years. LOL

[Buckstopshere]

18 minutes ago, growalot said:

When I speak of sanctuaries here..They are doe sanctuaries as well as buck..these are Do not shoot doe properties ...I didn't take what you said as calling me out ...my statement was an example of how assumptions are made about certain areas.  Some assume that the DEC is handing out doe tags like candy, thus all the doe are being shot...that's not the  case...look at Eddie's season...listen to Culvert...look at the harvest threads. Not because we want or are shooting small buck...but because doe are smarter,they do not have the biological imperative to seek their mate. BTW speaking of assumptions...No...... anyone that has tasted the difference between an older class buck and a younger one..Well if they are like me..you'd be surprised how many are like me...they'll gladly to a a good younger buck over the older one...Do you think that every guy out my way that has spotted the bucks I have,  hold off for just those few Deer knowing they are here? If that were the case,especially with the amount of cams in everyone's woods...you'd rarely hear a shot opening weekend or the next 3 weeks for that matter. They just want a good buck and some doe...like me not everyone has a need for a head on their wall. Ask me if I'd pass the  bigger deer if two appeared..Yes I've chosen a 8 over a 10, a 7 over a monster 8... best shot and a mercy...Mr B Has past some huge deer over the years for various reasons..I know people that go out but stopped shooting because they got their wall hanger...to be honest not a huge deer...but their trophy.Some now hunt with cameras,each photo being a trophy in it's own right...these threads end in me feeling sad for some hunters...

I have to take issue when you say "does are smarter," I think that bucks, old bucks I have known are just as smart as any doe, and more-so because they get away with running around with big racks. Sorry couldn't resist putting a little stupid humor in conversation.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Buckstopshere

[Deerstalker]

12 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

Like in Pa. those guys need to wait another 10 years. LOL

I think ARs could be doing  more to help out pouchers then the average hunter seems like . Before opening day anything big gets taken out by them . This could be why alot of guys say they dont see any difference  in AR areas .

[growalot]

Who are you kidding in 28 days they are still chasing the fawn  coming in,the doe that came in late. I'm not spinning anything..it's fact the more mature buck in the area the worse shape the buck are in by Dec. As  long as the buck have high testosterone levels they will search and they will fight..whether doe come in or not. We don't even have bucks rubbing  trees in large numbers here until now. I have mentioned this several times over the years. NATURAL SELECTION...OMG how far from natural selection can your personal need for bigger bucks be. Spinning .......you hide be hind herd health, perhaps I've missed it...where are the deformities,devastating diseases,low fawning rates,low body weights...What have I missed in your concerns over herd health.

[growalot]

Out of likes LOL...

[gjs4]

The main reason NY hunters dislike ARs is they want to shoot their gun first and count (if there are fingers and toes available) the number of points on the 1.5yo they shot and used their wife's tag on because there are more drives to be done that day....


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[gjs4]

But it is legal. Well aside from the wife's tag and trespassing but you can't teach an old pumpkin new tricks... or how to count past 8


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[growalot]

Sorry to disappoint but I'll be kind in this response...you are wrong gjs4. Do you know why it's hard to teach "Old dogs New tricks"? Because they have grown old enough to see through the trickery,knowing there will still be a treat for them anyways. 

[chas0218]

 

23 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

So then let's just ban ALL buck hunting for 2 years statewide for all seasons. And you missed my point totally about areas of the state that don't have options  or very limited options for doe take. 

You missed my point, where are those areas that do not issue DMP's? It is the ADK park and Castkill area. The reason behind it is they don't have the forage to sustain a healthy population of deer so they take a limited or no doe at all. There is nothing you can do about that unless you plan on trying to grow AG fields on the side of mountians because that is feasible. Why not put AR on all areas but the no DMP WMUs? Who said it had to be all of NY?

23 hours ago, stubby68 said:

Live off the meat? You can't chew let alone stand the taste of a buck more then 2 1/2 years old.

         Funny I know many people in PA.  Some family. Never heard a good thing from any hunter about PA. hunting Spence ar were put in place. Some I know stopped hunting some started making the trip to NY. Why pay for a tag when I can not use. With ar there is a good chance your tag won't get filled. I will not pay for something I can not use. Is it that much money? no but if I am gonna pay for something I can't use I might as well just through money in the woodstove.AR is not about heard anything. It is about guys wanting to see huge bucks behind every tree. As we have all seen the pics there plenty of big bucks in my.

You must not know how to cut up your deer or the person you take it to doesn't, I haven't had a tough piece of meat yet from a 5 1/2 year old deer. I have shot 2 and 1 that was 4 1/2. All those deer tasted fine with little to no gamey flavor, if you want some tips PM me and I can tell you how I process my deer. For now I'll stick to the topic at hand. I have several colleagues that hunt P.A. because of the AR and see bigger bucks them and their families lease around 300 acres in P.A. because "Too many brown it's down hunters with little to no chance at a decent mature buck."  It isn't just P.A. how about antler restrictions in N.Y. I have 5 friends that hunt in the Catskills under the AR and say that there is a noticeable difference in the health of the deer and the size compared to pre AR. Unfortunately the 2 areas can not sustain a sizable herd because of the lack of natural forage. Like I mentioned above why does all of NY need AR why not only the areas that have DMPs?

[chas0218]

13 hours ago, growalot said:

Who are you kidding in 28 days they are still chasing the fawn  coming in,the doe that came in late. I'm not spinning anything..it's fact the more mature buck in the area the worse shape the buck are in by Dec. As  long as the buck have high testosterone levels they will search and they will fight..whether doe come in or not. We don't even have bucks rubbing  trees in large numbers here until now. I have mentioned this several times over the years. NATURAL SELECTION...OMG how far from natural selection can your personal need for bigger bucks be. Spinning .......you hide be hind herd health, perhaps I've missed it...where are the deformities,devastating diseases,low fawning rates,low body weights...What have I missed in your concerns over herd health.

Also depends on amount of doe in that area. I have saw on our property several bucks (2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year olds) walk side by side while scent checking doe. This year we have about 8 different mature doe and 11 bucks. Out of those 11 there were (5) 1 1/2 year olds the older bucks rarely fight over the doe they just determine the pecking order and they stick to it. This year I saw some bucks sparring but that was early on and were the 1 1/2 year olds.

[phade]

18 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I hunted in 8 H all bow season. An area that they pulled the ability to shoot a buck the first two weeks last year, becasue the population is so high and out of control. I passed on  12 different 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks, saw three i would have loved to been able to take and one doe. Yup.....one doe and I let her go becasue she had a buck on her heels and he ended up being a small one. So here I am an area that is supposedly supper high in doe population and couldn't buy one...lol

We saw fewer does in our 8H properties than ever before this year. I thought for sure the easy winter would have resulted in more does, but we're so low - that I am the only one out of the three of us that has shot a doe. Since 2012-13, we've filled practically every single either/or and DMP up until this point at the various properties...6 of them in 6 different townships.

[growalot]

Here's something interesting...something to think about...I'm on the Kindle so I can't copy and paste. But it's easy to look up on the QDM site.

Research...when there are to many doe and a skewed buck to doe ratio..doe produce fewer fawns. 8N...more triplets and twins being born...yet We Are suppose to be over run with doe,why are we seeing more multiple births? Larger bodied deer?

Voluntary AR's s...the DEC numbers and they stated this, are showing to be working...yet still the drive by the fringe pushing mandatory. One would question the personal reasons of each individual pushing this.

Herd Health..again ,let's not deflect here, where's the evidence of the poor health? Now don't go to the winters with long deep freeze weeks and extremely deep snow....Herd health is a year around thing. Poor health,lower births, deformities, disease....

BTW...Insurance companies are showing a significant decrease in deer-car collisions.

So you AR guys (mandatory) need to come up with a better shtick, beyond insults and innuendo' s to convince me your push isn't born of frustration and greed.

[dbHunterNY]

8 hours ago, growalot said:

Here's something interesting...something to think about...I'm on the Kindle so I can't copy and paste. But it's easy to look up on the QDM site.

Research...when there are to many doe and a skewed buck to doe ratio..doe produce fewer fawns. 8N...more triplets and twins being born...yet We Are suppose to be over run with doe,why are we seeing more multiple births? Larger bodied deer? your in one of the most soil rich regions of the state.  your buck to doe ratio according to DEC survey data your ratio isn't really bad at all and is way better than other areas like the central and southeastern portions of the state.  i guarantee your age structure is slightly better too.  i've hunted both areas and on state land too.  DEC is worried because that area of the state can produce deer in a hurry if harvest isn't kept to what it should be.  your pockets of deer have the potential to be more over populated then those out this way.  if you're in one of those pockets you could very well think there's a huge over population issue.  within each WMU there's changes in deer density.

Voluntary AR's s...the DEC numbers and they stated this, are showing to be working...yet still the drive by the fringe pushing mandatory. One would question the personal reasons of each individual pushing this.  i don't know what others' reasons are, because i'm not them.  i could careless if you question my intent.  your mind seems to be made up regardless of what i could tell you i do for the hunting in NY. voluntary passing of deer is one thing but voluntary ARs are generally misguided, unmonitored, and therefore fail.  if they had a little guidance they can work great.  DEC only just started to push voluntary passing of young bucks and using ARs.  Any manditory ARs in place DEC had really little to do with.  they were legislated in.  there's DEC staff that are for and hunt with ARs but DEC in general is just as divided.

Herd Health..again ,let's not deflect here, where's the evidence of the poor health? Now don't go to the winters with long deep freeze weeks and extremely deep snow....Herd health is a year around thing. Poor health,lower births, deformities, disease....  you shouldn't be stuck on the idea that deer are in perfect health or the herd is dieing and broken.  you just be open to the idea a deer herd can be just okay with definite room for improvement in some areas.

BTW...Insurance companies are showing a significant decrease in deer-car collisions. that's definitely a tangent for some other thread.

So you AR guys (mandatory) need to come up with a better shtick, beyond insults and innuendo' s to convince me your push isn't born of frustration and greed.  any blatant insults are by members that you'd expect to throw them here or there.  you shouldn't complain about insults as you insult others in the same post.  doesn't look good.  I'm probably bowing out as Culver did.  it's turned into attacking people rather than actual useful info for people to read.  go figure.

 

[growalot]

Since you broke that up into 3 distinct replies,I'll simple point this out:

1. )  weak

2. ) weaker

3.)  Weakest

Edited December 1, 2016 by growalot