Shoot young bucks to let older ones mature

[Culvercreek hunt club]

7 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

And here is another. We are overrun with these types of bucks. Everybody passes them, but a six point yearling. Bang.

That looks like a yearling to me as well. 

[BigVal]

I wish I had the option to "see" the same buck next year as a better buck. I've tried many times over and very rarely see the same buck that I'm hoping to see. It has happened but not regularly. With that said we have tons of small 4s 6s 8s etc. Some are not 1.5. (Proven). I shot a 4 this year that was 2.5. With that said if I see a buck and I want to shoot it I don't hold back. I usually look at the body size more than the antlers. Not that I don't like big racks . I passed lots and lots of small racked bucks during bow only to drop one the first weekend of gun. 

[Buckmaster7600]

It's actually an Adirondack buck. 

There goes his theory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Culvercreek hunt club]

6 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

There goes his theory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Here is that spike at 2.5

[Culvercreek hunt club]

and 3.5

[Buckstopshere]

8 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

and 3.5

A beautiful animal! We all want to get there. We just disagree on the way to the promised land.

[Buckstopshere]

12 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

There goes his theory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Every place can grow great deer behind high fences, if they are fed, managed, and start with superior genes. Adirondacks or south Texas, doesn't matter.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

12 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

Every place can grow great deer behind high fences, if they are fed, managed, and start with superior genes. Adirondacks or south Texas, doesn't matter.

this wasn't fenced. just a large managed property with supplemental food in the way of plots and habitat management. This buck actually died of old age.  and I guess that is part of my point. YOU CAN'T genetically manage a wild herd. too many variables. You have no idea what the does are bringing to the table. I think if you asked FourSeasons you see that even in farm raised deer they track the pedigree of the does as much as they do the bucks. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Culvercreek hunt club

[BigVal]

I'd pass at it at 1.5 shoot it at 2.5 and 3.5 and try to control my shaking to shoot it when it's older. I've seen the article. Beautiful buck.

[Buckmaster7600]

Every place can grow great deer behind high fences, if they are fed, managed, and start with superior genes. Adirondacks or south Texas, doesn't matter.

The fact is a deer needs age, I have yet to see a 130" 1 1/2yr old buck


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Culvercreek hunt club]

7 minutes ago, BigVal said:

I'd pass at it at 1.5 shoot it at 2.5 and 3.5 and try to control my shaking to shoot it when it's older. I've seen the article. Beautiful buck.

I know you'll probably need a private moment but here goes...lol never hit 170

 

[BigVal]

Na I'd shoot it then wish it was a yearling when looking at it on my tailgate! Pull a stubby. Lol jk

[Culvercreek hunt club]

6 minutes ago, BigVal said:

Na I'd shoot it then wish it was a yearling when looking at it on my tailgate! Pull a stubby. Lol jk

Maybe it is just becasue I have shot a boat load of bucks that are small 8's and down over my life and now I live in an area that has plenty of permits for me to fill my freezer with but there is nothing that makes my blood pressure "spike" and insetting the adrenaline running like having an encounter with a really big buck, even if I can't get the shot. 

[SteveB]

11 minutes ago, BigVal said:

I'd pass at it at 1.5 shoot it at 2.5 and 3.5 and try to control my shaking to shoot it when it's older. I've seen the article. Beautiful buck.

Just for me - I see no reason to pass on 1 at 1 1/2 just to shoot a year or 2 later. Still not mature. Again - just for me.

[BigVal]

My biggest buck is a 110 inch 8. Seeing big deer makes my heart pump like nothing else expect maybe the other type of large rack. 

[BigVal]

6 minutes ago, SteveB said:

Just for me - I see no reason to pass on 1 at 1 1/2 just to shoot a year or 2 later. Still not mature. Again - just for me.

Yep just for me no doubt shooter at 2.5 don't care about "immature vs mature" at this point in my hunting career that 2.5 is a trophy.

[moog5050]

Isn't the point that genetics play a large role, but with wild bucks you will never really know how good those genes are until the buck has aged?  Makes a lot of sense.  If you are forced to shoot a 1.5, might as well shoot the spike vs. 8pt if the goal is for one of them to live to become a trophy buck, but nobody is forced to shoot anything and both can be left to live a couple more years and see how they are progressing.  The whole premise of choosing between two young bucks seems misguided if you are hoping they grow into big racked bucks.  Let em both go.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

6 minutes ago, SteveB said:

Just for me - I see no reason to pass on 1 at 1 1/2 just to shoot a year or 2 later. Still not mature. Again - just for me.

I am not going to waste breath to try and encourage passing a 120"-130" deer...lol. if we just passed them at 1.5 it would make a difference. I also don't buy into the high grading thing because  most hunters would get an eye opener in what it takes to get a 3.5 year old or older. They are like hunting a different animal compared to a 1.5. They didn't get that big being dumb and you can't take the population of older bucks out every year. The'd still be there. 

[moog5050]

15 minutes ago, SteveB said:

Just for me - I see no reason to pass on 1 at 1 1/2 just to shoot a year or 2 later. Still not mature. Again - just for me.

I agree a 3.5 is not fully mature.  But its a lot closer to its potential than a 1.5 and 2.5 and still a top 18% harvest in NY according to DEC.  I think it becomes a matter of goals and past successes at some point.  I am pretty confident I can knock down a 3.5 every bow season (no guarantees though) and am willing to minimally wait for a good 3.5.  If an older buck stops by, all the better.  My odds of knocking down a 4.5 or older drop significantly.  So, only I (or any hunter) can answer the question whether I am willing to take the chance I will eat that tag waiting for one 4.5 or older.  The longer I hunt and the more bucks I kill, the easier it becomes to wait it out for exactly what I want, that's for sure. 

[Buckstopshere]

14 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Isn't the point that genetics play a large role, but with wild bucks you will never really know how good those genes are until the buck has aged?  Makes a lot of sense.  If you are forced to shoot a 1.5, might as well shoot the spike vs. 8pt if the goal is for one of them to live to become a trophy buck, but nobody is forced to shoot anything and both can be left to live a couple more years and see how they are progressing.  The whole premise of choosing between two young bucks seems misguided if you are hoping they grow into big racked bucks.  Let em both go.

In the real world, under the sky I did let them pass, a couple of times. They and a few of their buddies hung around the zip-tied scrape cluster in that old apple orchard until all the apples and does were gone. I was trying to make the theoretical point that sometimes it might be better to harvest the smaller buck and let the older one, with better antler potential (at least in the short term) go to really be something the following year.

[moog5050]

20 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

In the real world, under the sky I did let them pass, a couple of times. They and a few of their buddies hung around the zip-tied scrape cluster in that old apple orchard until all the apples and does were gone. I was trying to make the theoretical point that sometimes it might be better to harvest the smaller buck and let the older one, with better antler potential (at least in the short term) go to really be something the following year.

If one is going to shoot a young buck, I agree.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

this wasn't fenced. just a large managed property with supplemental food in the way of plots and habitat management. This buck actually died of old age.  and I guess that is part of my point. YOU CAN'T genetically manage a wild herd. too many variables. You have no idea what the does are bringing to the table. I think if you asked FourSeasons you see that even in farm raised deer they track the pedigree of the does as much as they do the bucks. 

More So!   In our world if you want success and $$$$    You had better..Doe Up!

[gjs4]

I don't quite understand what your problem is or what your point is. I am not a simpleton like you suggest and I  don't need a coloring book to teach me anything. In case you haven't noticed there have been some pretty nice mature bucks taken & shown on this thread and if you have looked at this site: http://www.nyantler-outdoors.com/2016-new-york-whitetails.html you will see quite a few more. There are plenty of mature deer around and I could show you tracks as big as or as close to as big as a cow.
So get off your high horse and go find someone else to lay your crap on because I really don't want to entertain someone that talks out of the wrong end of their body.
[/quash pot
People in NY, especially gun guys calling themselves hunters, shoot young deer due to impatience and a lack of hard work and that's is why they're not bigger. A handful of decent bucks posted on here, a bunch of 2yos and few that may have been shot while,nursing. As stated before- couldn't careless on ARs beyond they make gun hunters identify their target for a change...or should..but they keep shooting people so I guess counting things on a deers rack is way too far of a stretch for good expectations.

Not thread cropping either pal- just reminding you of the reality we have


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 12/7/2016 at 9:53 AM, Buckstopshere said:

In the real world, under the sky I did let them pass, a couple of times. They and a few of their buddies hung around the zip-tied scrape cluster in that old apple orchard until all the apples and does were gone. I was trying to make the theoretical point that sometimes it might be better to harvest the smaller buck and let the older one, with better antler potential (at least in the short term) go to really be something the following year.

here is a quick video that brings up some other topics for causes of "poor racks" as well as a very good example  of what taking a scrub buck so remove it from the gene pool could be doing . 

 

[nyantler]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 2:17 AM, nyslowhand said:

Interesting article in latest issue of NYON (11/25/16) about AR by one of this forum's member, Buckstopshere. Article, actually more of an editorial opinion is entitled "Making a point on antler restrictions". Buckstopshere, please correct me if I'm interpreting your opinion incorrectly!

The crux of his opinion against any AR, mandatory or voluntary is that shooting younger bucks allows the 2+yo bucks to develop & grow at least another year. Very interesting concept which has some merit! Although the theory is somewhat counter-intuitive, culling the younger bucks to have bigger, mature bucks around your area. I've actually done this occasionally in the past if I've seen an overabundance of younger bucks on summertime trail cam photos or during bow season. Problem is, we all know exactly why we hunt, especially during the rut - those big, old bucks!! Not a lot of bow hunters would tag-out on a smaller buck and then sit out the rut or continue hunting with the antlerless/DMP tag only.

I do agree with the author about mandated AR taking away the hunter's choice or options. Do NOT agree with his disdain for the DEC's campaign to educate hunters about voluntary passing on smaller bucks to allow older (2+yo) bucks to mature or develop more. This is actually something I suggested to the DEC when they were soliciting input about deer management. Basically to not impose statewide regulations with no regard for the hunter's choice of harvest. Also suggested they (DEC) educate the hunting community about doe and buck management and let the hunters decide and micro manage their specific locations. This education campaign is not a shaming ploy as the author suggests, merely an instructional tool.IMHO, it's more of a - harvest what you want, but just so you're aware shooting younger bucks might reduce the number of BBs eventually. But by all means, enjoy deer hunting as you would.

Anyone else see this article? Agree with the author? Am I full of crap?

So if your killing the 1,5 year olds to let the 2.5 year old grow... Where do the 2.5 year olds come from? The truth is there is no merit to his opinion... I will agree it is an opinion though.