SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[chas0218]

16 hours ago, growalot said:

Just for the hell of it lets play this game...take a guess at the age of this buck and say why...

Personally I would say young doe being that she should be getting close to show the pregnant belly. I have had doe on camera at the end of March that are beginning to show pregnancy wise. This doe is obviously young and was not bred this year. The one behind it looks to be of the same size just further from the camera.

[moog5050]

Grow your questioned assumed a fact that was not true.  Of course people would question it.  If I pointed at Donald Trump and said "how old do you think that woman is", I suspect the first response from many would be that's not a woman, rather than oh about 70 because she is wrinkled and has a comb over.

Edited March 23, 2017 by moog5050

[growalot]

No of I think you missed something in my last post

Chas some good reasoning,though remember to question time of breeding and number of fetuses if this is the case for showing.....Now seeing the second deer is obviously a button buck...How do you account for the amount of hock staining on a doe you think to be a fawn? This isn't sarcasm ..a straight non judgemental question.

Here's another interesting fact..Illinois requires not only points,but beam base measurements and the measurement from eye duct to back leading edge of nostril. To help determine age estimates.

Edited March 23, 2017 by growalot

[chas0218]

Good point not sure where it was but I read that 90% of all doe are bred in the 1st rut meaning that if you had a herd with 20 doe out of those 20 only 2 would be bred late the chances of that happening are slim. But the doe pictured and the button buck are of the same age, both likely to be yearlings (2016 years offspring) and I would bet siblings being that they were the only 2 together pictured. Usually twins will split up after their first year. Now I don't have proof about that last part just first hand experience.

 

EDIT: And yes doe can have dark hocks, the doe I shot during regular season had dark hocks and smelled just as bad as bucks I have shot in the past.

Edited March 23, 2017 by chas0218

[growalot]

AH...but see you haven't knowledge of any pics before or after. Also remember some fawns that also get bred as well, will come  in heat Iater.

[chas0218]

29 minutes ago, growalot said:

AH...but see you haven't knowledge of any pics before or after. Also remember some fawns that also get bred as well, will come  in heat Iater.

Bred fawns all depends on the area and if they are of weight, in NY I'm sure there are exceptions but again that is that 10%. Darken hocks don't always refer to breeding or have been bred. Usually the hocks are always discolored from the rest of the animal. Being that the button buck in the background has them too makes me think they are just discolored not for any rhyme or reason. I have had photos of deer both doe and bucks that are 2.5 years old with dark hocks in July. That doesn't mean he is breeding doe in July. Link provided describes breeding of fawns.

https://www.qdma.com/doe-fawns-breed-good-sign/

We are skewing a little from the original post but for all arguments sake you can age a doe up to maturity and after that there is no real way to tell what age she is until you kill her and have her teeth aged. Bucks mature differently than doe so it is easier for people to tell their age, like you mentioned yourself there are biologists that take measurements from the facial structure to help age the deer other than its teeth. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by chas0218

[growalot]

I interesting thoughts.

You got the point Chas.

Every tail chasing dog needs a distraction  after 22 rounds of pointlessness.....

Edited March 23, 2017 by growalot

[Death From Above]

3 hours ago, growalot said:

One person stepped up without getting  defensive,and gave honest opinion to what he saw..instead of trying to turn it into whether I knew it to be a buck or doe..one picture out of dozens in a series I posted and only a few responded...Moog yes you did give an answer but more concerned with my reasoning That should have been clear I did clearly say let's play a game. I got what I expected actually. Most avoided a couple questioned but answered and others turned it into a personal thing...pretty much standard..No one  simply just answered with reasons as asked.

 

While I am not entirely sure why you posted your “game” on this thread, I would assume that you did it for one of the following reasons:

1.  You wanted to impress everyone with your ability to age deer.

2.  You wanted to point out that many others are not as proficient at aging deer as you are.

3.  You wanted to prove that many aren’t able to discern the age of a deer on the hoof.

So, I have to assume that you feel judging age is an important factor either to you personally, or it actually plays a positive role in herd management IF DONE CORRECTLY.  If that is the case, then through your “observations” you clearly point out that AR is in fact a clear benefit.  I agree, it is easier to count points on an antler then judge the age of an antlerless deer regardless of its gender.  So if AR might help save a large majority of the younger deer, then you are correct, AR is better than asking hunters to judge them on the hoof.  If you are suggesting that judging whether or not the average hunter should shoot this “buck”, as you call it, in March or not, then there are some other more serious issues at play I would think.

You stated that many avoided your post and didn’t want to “play”.   Yup, I’d agree…here is how I saw your post:

I think it is only fair that you should have put out some disclaimers, such as:

-        Anything you say can and will be held against you in the court of Growalot.

-        Growalot retains the right to deny anything written in his/her post, regardless if it was actually typed there or not (please see the reference to my Kindle being responsible for any errors)

-        All responses will be sarcastic and condescending, unless I agree with you

-        While opinions expressed in this poll may not be provable as right or wrong, please note that it is my post so I am always correct, and therefore you may always be wrong

Now, if you had put those disclaimers up and prepared me for what I would have received regardless of what I submitted as my opinion, I might have been more willing to “play”.  I would have understood your rules.

[growalot]

LOL you correct in your image DFA...not in your assumptions...It had nothing to do with me or any of my knowledge nor skills or lack there of. Not trying to impress anyone, l Lord... by now most have to know I just don't give a tinkers about what others think of me......It had everything to getting across a few points.. what points people saw in this,  or how it made them think when seeing others vision in the picture, I had no control over...It stopped just few a little bit...the none stop tail chasing ..if that put a target on me ...hahaha who cares it was a relief..I know I don't have to read nor participate but, human nature and those train wrecks what can I say

I stated in the beginning this really won't have an effect on me...Though that  isn't true. See if the doe continue to do their night time thing, I won't take an easy 6 anymore I won't be able to...I will hit the fawns...it will take more than one fawn to make up for the size, but I have 6 tags...I won't care if they have bumps or not for meat is meat and it's just more tender meat....That's just a personal choice..... the DEC want those tags filled and I haven't been able to  do my part over the last few years because fawns where off the table...not so much when this goes through.

I will say this ....I hope it made people think about what it should take to actually age a deer on the hoof...without a rack present....from a distorted view point( those two deer and their respective distance from the camera)...even sex..here are a couple worth while links

http://www.outdooralabama.com/sites/default/files/hunting/hunterresources/tips/Alabama Poster.pdf

http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G9485

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by growalot

[Raymond Purdy]

Animal husbandry is in fact a science, and there is no reason not to apply sound breeding practices to our free ranging herd of white-tailed deer in NY. In many areas hunters often observe fewer deer than meets their satisfaction and it’s easy to blame this on a number of things. We must not overlook the fact that every time a NY hunter pulls the trigger or releases an arrow, he or she is making a decision that will determine the herd’s characteristics for the next season. When a poor buck-to-doe ratio exists, we will experience an extended rut. A breeding chronology that is extended as it appears to the case in some locations of NY is something that hunters can control and rectify. Only our stubborn adherence to 105 year old hunting traditions that result in annually clear-cutting the yearling buck population prevents us from refining deer breeding ecology.

[G-Man]

Simple solution make it on all state lands.. I pay a huge amount of taxes and i do eat a lot of venison.. Its not all from big bucks..  

I know all the game belongs to the state.. But the land is mine.. Perhaps I can charge the state for harboring and raising its animals on my property. Under their law.. I have to wait years to kill animal eating/ rubbing my trees preventing reforestation.. And it will become more intense as older deer compete for territory..   Again not needed except for hunter enjoyment...

[chrisw]

 

While I am not entirely sure why you posted your “game” on this thread, I would assume that you did it for one of the following reasons:

1.  You wanted to impress everyone with your ability to age deer.

2.  You wanted to point out that many others are not as proficient at aging deer as you are.

3.  You wanted to prove that many aren’t able to discern the age of a deer on the hoof.

So, I have to assume that you feel judging age is an important factor either to you personally, or it actually plays a positive role in herd management IF DONE CORRECTLY.  If that is the case, then through your “observations” you clearly point out that AR is in fact a clear benefit.  I agree, it is easier to count points on an antler then judge the age of an antlerless deer regardless of its gender.  So if AR might help save a large majority of the younger deer, then you are correct, AR is better than asking hunters to judge them on the hoof.  If you are suggesting that judging whether or not the average hunter should shoot this “buck”, as you call it, in March or not, then there are some other more serious issues at play I would think.

You stated that many avoided your post and didn’t want to “play”.   Yup, I’d agree…here is how I saw your post:

I think it is only fair that you should have put out some disclaimers, such as:

-        Anything you say can and will be held against you in the court of Growalot.

-        Growalot retains the right to deny anything written in his/her post, regardless if it was actually typed there or not (please see the reference to my Kindle being responsible for any errors)

-        All responses will be sarcastic and condescending, unless I agree with you

-        While opinions expressed in this poll may not be provable as right or wrong, please note that it is my post so I am always correct, and therefore you may always be wrong

Now, if you had put those disclaimers up and prepared me for what I would have received regardless of what I submitted as my opinion, I might have been more willing to “play”.  I would have understood your rules.

If there was a "post of the year award," you sir just earned my vote.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[stubborn1VT]

Animal husbandry is a science, but by definition applies to domestic animals.  That is because the amount of variables is controlled on a farm, allowing for strict management. It doesn't apply to free ranging animals that face varying challenges like weather, availability of food, and hunting pressure.  There are too many variables to think that you can simply manage a state's deer herd like they were a docile herd of cattle.

[chas0218]

13 hours ago, G-Man said:

Simple solution make it on all state lands.. I pay a huge amount of taxes and i do eat a lot of venison.. Its not all from big bucks..  

I know all the game belongs to the state.. But the land is mine.. Perhaps I can charge the state for harboring and raising its animals on my property. Under their law.. I have to wait years to kill animal eating/ rubbing my trees preventing reforestation.. And it will become more intense as older deer compete for territory..   Again not needed except for hunter enjoyment...

Not really, unless you haven't already been practicing selective harvesting. 

[chas0218]

How many people heat with firewood or just use it for ambiance? How about those that like to have camp fires?

Would those of you that enjoy a nice fire go out and trim a bunch of small branches to feed your fire place/ wood stove or harvest a log and split it into manageable pieces? I don't know a single person that would do the fore mentioned, the same principles apply.

Edited March 24, 2017 by chas0218

[grampy]

I don't see the connection between a spike horn and a stick of firewood. ..........sigh.............

[growalot]

Nearly every pine and spruce I have ever lost on this place was due to rubbing...My young maples, oaks,fruit trees and chestnuts..taken out by buck. Now with the numbers of ( and you can look this up) fruit, nut and berry orchards around, plus  nut tree and pine plantations in western central NYS. Your saved bucks will have Kill orders put out on them in greater numbers by the DEC...They will issue damage permits and I guarantee these farms will apply for them more then ever. You can barely spit  without hitting someone in a fruit or Christmas tree operation in these areas. Showing buck damage is the easiest damage to prove. Seeing I'm in to plants I can tell you the association of nut tree growers is growing rapidly. I can't imagine any of the logging operations that own lands wont look for relief and more than from the hunters they lease to. I could name 4 Christmas tree farms around me that get extra buck damage permits that they give out to archers in Oct.-November...it's big business here.

[chas0218]

39 minutes ago, grampy said:

I don't see the connection between a spike horn and a stick of firewood. ..........sigh.............

It was an analogy on the amount of heat to the amount of meat. The more mature the tree the more heat you will get from that one tree the more mature the deer the more meat you will get. 

[growalot]

The younger the branch the less bitter,more tender palatable the bark. If I were to choose to chew on a maple branch to taste the sweet sap in spring, I would  choose a young tender branch for a sweet treat... Funny how analogies are ...anyone can MAKE ONE up.

PS.. didn't think I really needed to finish the comparison there..though......

Edited March 24, 2017 by growalot

[ManicOutdoorsman92]

How many people heat with firewood or just use it for ambiance? How about those that like to have camp fires?
Would those of you that enjoy a nice fire go out and trim a bunch of small branches to feed your fire place/ wood stove or harvest a log and split it into manageable pieces? I don't know a single person that would do the fore mentioned, the same principles apply.

Well if the immediate area was abundant with small sticks yes, maybe coat them in resin to burn longer. Cant stoke the fire with logs when theres only 1 tree per 100 acres of brush. Should i make do with whats around or hope i can round up enough logs in all that brush to get through,

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[Death From Above]

8 hours ago, chrisw said:

 

If there was a "post of the year award," you sir just earned my vote.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
 

 

Ha, that is funny.  Just please give me a day or two's notice so that I can write my acceptance speech.

I'm jut happy I got a LOL out of Growalot !!!!

[phade]

19 hours ago, Raymond Purdy said:

Animal husbandry is in fact a science, and there is no reason not to apply sound breeding practices to our free ranging herd of white-tailed deer in NY. In many areas hunters often observe fewer deer than meets their satisfaction and it’s easy to blame this on a number of things. We must not overlook the fact that every time a NY hunter pulls the trigger or releases an arrow, he or she is making a decision that will determine the herd’s characteristics for the next season. When a poor buck-to-doe ratio exists, we will experience an extended rut. A breeding chronology that is extended as it appears to the case in some locations of NY is something that hunters can control and rectify. Only our stubborn adherence to 105 year old hunting traditions that result in annually clear-cutting the yearling buck population prevents us from refining deer breeding ecology.

Overall in NY breeder age does are bred in the 90+% percentile, with the stronger regions 95-98%.

While in the Adirondacks, only 4% of fawns are bred annually. Seems like a problem but more a factor of the environmental conditions relating to quality habitat to obtain the necessary weight/development to become fertile. Compare that to other regions IN New York where nearly 40% of fawns are bred each year.

An extended rut might seem like the end of the world, but for the most part, when does are being bred at high success rates year in and year out, I think people make the case to solve a problem that doesn't truly exist in the confines of what the DEC manages. So maybe you condense the spring birthing a little more, but so far I don't think that is where we should focus our efforts. There are other more pressing needs at this point.

Condensing the rut is more about season structure and tag allocation than hunter discipline IMO.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

How many people heat with firewood or just use it for ambiance? How about those that like to have camp fires?

Would those of you that enjoy a nice fire go out and trim a bunch of small branches to feed your fire place/ wood stove or harvest a log and split it into manageable pieces? I don't know a single person that would do the fore mentioned, the same principles apply.

We heat our camp with limb wood so we minimize splitting.

[growalot]

Quote

    All responses will be sarcastic and condescending, unless I agree with you

-        While opinions expressed in this poll may not be provable as right or wrong, please note that it is my post so I am always correct, and therefore you may always be wrong

Let me address this...I am most certainly sarcastic..I believe I have openly mentioned this. That said my sarcasm hits full bloom when I see people posting about how they think their hunting experience needs to include EVERYONE else in the state and then hide behind "It's not about me it's about the health of the deer". They expect everyone to fall inline and believe every single "Science " based argument they present. This while completely ignoring or  offhandedly dismissing anything any one else posts to the contrary.Such as links from other biologist and yes other states that have shown ...IT DOESN'T work and wasn't needed.

 I get sarcastic when people just can not have an agenda and be totally honest about what is driving that agenda.

Now I can not nor will I take responsibility for how you or any one else feels reading words on a computer screen. You can't even see my facial expressions nor body language. I will not believe my words have so much power that you have to feel dissed. This all said Of course I laughed! Did you read what you wrote? ..hhhmmm Let me just use a familiar phrase..." Calling the Kettle black" Though I have to try and think back to how many personal, petty "attacks" any members have seen me make in this thread. 

[Death From Above]

37 minutes ago, phade said:

Overall in NY breeder age does are bred in the 90+% percentile, with the stronger regions 95-98%.

While in the Adirondacks, only 4% of fawns are bred annually. Seems like a problem but more a factor of the environmental conditions relating to quality habitat to obtain the necessary weight/development to become fertile. Compare that to other regions IN New York where nearly 40% of fawns are bred each year.

An extended rut might seem like the end of the world, but for the most part, when does are being bred at high success rates year in and year out, I think people make the case to solve a problem that doesn't truly exist in the confines of what the DEC manages. So maybe you condense the spring birthing a little more, but so far I don't think that is where we should focus our efforts. There are other more pressing needs at this point.

Condensing the rut is more about season structure and tag allocation than hunter discipline IMO.

 

 

I certainly agree that there are better ways to deal with it, but I think sometimes we don’t look at the end result of what we are discussing.

I think much of this comes down to winter kill, and especially starvation.  If we can do something to minimize starvation in fawns that are under developed due to late birthdays, or spread the stress of the rut on more bucks, we automatically reduce the probability of putting many deer through winters they won’t likely make it through.  We can look at percentages in an attempt to determine just how bad this is – and it differs for sure in different areas.  Still, and improvement on this number is and improvement, and there is a value on that even in small numbers.  Watching fawns bed in the same spots in fields I drive by for a couple days sucks.  They are simply starving and it doesn’t take long till the coyotes realize this.  I like the idea of limiting this scenario, even if I can't predict just how many deer it might save each year. 

Sure, we can say that nature is rough sometimes, we can suggest that increased competition amongst bucks leads to injuries, and one might suggest that more deer alive means less to eat = more starvation anyways.  But most of this topic seems to center on if there will be more bucks to harvest and if they will have bigger antlers.  I say if it is something that might lead to less winter kill, then I see that as a good enough reason to do whatever we can to address this “health benefit”.

I think that we might have a tougher time addressing bag limits and season changes, due to the fact that there isn’t as much visible “gold at the end of the rainbow” like many see with bigger antlers with AR.  I have a tough time seeing as many people lobbying for something that might benefit our deer if it came down to shortening seasons or eliminating a buck tag.  So I guess AR might be the best option to produce a potential reduction in the issues I mentioned above.

When I find winterkill up my way it rarely appears to be an adult sized doe.  I see lots of fawns, and most of the bucks are the year-old variety.  Coincidence?  Maybe, but I don’t think so.  I think it is more of a product of the age structure in our deer herd.