SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[stubby68]

I'll give you 1000 moog

[Larry]

COME ON SOMEONE HAS TO HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THIS PEACE OF CRAP BILL NOT BEING IN THE BUDGET AND NOT BEING PASSED WHOUT A VOTE

[Death From Above]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 8:43 PM, dbHunterNY said:

56 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Oh boy, I better come up with a solution quick.  Only 3 replies left to hit 1000.

 

Moog, I have your back, and I will offer a solution for you. 

Lets organize a statewide deer drive in late September, I mean everyone we can get.  We can push them to a cetralized location in Jefferson County, NY (I can proved GPS coordinates later for the best possible target area).  I, with the help of a few volunteers if I can find any, will do everything I can to manage the state's deer herd for say three or four years.  I will make sure that at the end of this time there are lots of spikes and forks for all the folks that perfer to eat those, and I will do what I can to make sure there are lots of big racked bucks to disperse back throughout the state for those who are evil trophy hunters. 

I will make sure that I only keep the biggest racked bucks here, so that in the future there won't be any out-of-staters that see NY as a destination spot for hunting, and our in-state hunters won't get too excited about big bucks and seek further legislation to create more of them in the future.

I am glad to provide this service free of charge for both our "herd health" and more importantly for the mental health and well being of members here on HuningNY.com.  If you would like to help me with this endeavor please let me know.  Just trying to be helpful. 

 

 

[moog5050]

OK - while the 1000th reply has come and gone, the answer to this whole issue is now MOOT!  See Larry's comment above.  Saved by our wonderful State legislature!  Lets renew this same discussion in 2018.  And for those disappointed by it not being passed, you can still show your convictions by not shooting yearlings.

Well that was an easy out.

[moog5050]

21 minutes ago, Death From Above said:

Moog, I have your back, and I will offer a solution for you. 

Lets organize a statewide deer drive in late September, I mean everyone we can get.  We can push them to a cetralized location in Jefferson County, NY (I can proved GPS coordinates later for the best possible target area).  I, with the help of a few volunteers if I can find any, will do everything I can to manage the state's deer herd for say three or four years.  I will make sure that at the end of this time there are lots of spikes and forks for all the folks that perfer to eat those, and I will do what I can to make sure there are lots of big racked bucks to disperse back throughout the state for those who are evil trophy hunters. 

I will make sure that I only keep the biggest racked bucks here, so that in the future there won't be any out-of-staters that see NY as a destination spot for hunting, and our in-state hunters won't get too excited about big bucks and seek further legislation to create more of them in the future.

I am glad to provide this service free of charge for both our "herd health" and more importantly for the mental health and well being of members here on HuningNY.com.  If you would like to help me with this endeavor please let me know.  Just trying to be helpful. 

 

 

Now that is a very generous and selfless offer Mr. Death From Above!

[Larry]

hey I'm just trolling

hey I pass on small bucks. I just don't like someone being forced in to my way of hunting or me being forced in to your way of hunting.

Some of these guys I don’t think their having fun because they are spending too much time worrying about what the other guy is doing instead of enjoying the hunt. They think success in the hunt is coming home with a big rack. That’s ok for them hopefully some day they will learn there more important things than antlers.

[nyantler]

yeehaw!! 1000  oops I'm late... nevermind

 

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by nyantler

[growalot]

So according to the NYODN this whole thing came down to 2 big lobbyists

NY white tail management coalition....... pushing

NY Farm Bureau.....pushing back

All this angst for nothing...I would have put a bet on that one and I only bet on sure things...lol

Oh and the NY conservation counsel chimed in with this:

 The antler restriction push via legislation is " like a CANCER"....

Edited April 19, 2017 by growalot

[dbHunterNY]

16 minutes ago, growalot said:

So according to the NYODN this whole thing came down to 2 big lobbyists

NY white tail management coalition....... pushing

NY Farm Bureau.....pushing back

All this angst for nothing...I would have put a bet on that one and I only bet on sure things...lol

Oh and the NY conservation counsel chimed in with this:

 The antler restriction push via legislation is " like a CANCER"....

in our area farm bureau is for antler restrictions because they'd rather see hunters filling freezers with doe versus young bucks that just get replaced year after year.  many out this way seem set on not shooting any doe and wanting crazy high deer numbers.  from a statewide point of view maybe it makes more sense given their interests?

NY Conservation Counsel is does stuff that makes sense then suddenly they go against something like the Poaching legislation that's more important.  the bill has been revised twice since so they very well may be for it now.  Anyway I consider them very agenda personal interest driven at times.

[growalot]

Unlike your self....lol

[dbHunterNY]

11 minutes ago, growalot said:

Unlike your self....lol

i simply feel that if yearling buck harvest is overly high resulting in lower buck numbers in some areas it'd help the hunting opportunity and deer to let a few live to see more than single season as an adult.  some areas could just use help more than others.  if i had a personal agenda i'd be much better served just hunting in a better area, filling my wall with mounts in peace and quiet.  there's no need have such a massive divide in this state with the best hunting available largely to those with resources to lockup and privately manage tracts of land all to themselves.  great hunting is supposed to be part an American way of life and tradition, not a rich man's privatized sport.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The problem is, "great hunting" is subjective. I think the hunting in my neck of the woods is pretty damn great already, and I dont feel like my version of great hunting should take precedence over someone else's

[dbHunterNY]

19 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

The problem is, "great hunting" is subjective. I think the hunting in my neck of the woods is pretty damn great already, and I dont feel like my version of great hunting should take precedence over someone else's

we've already established you both have better hunting regardless of what you do than some other areas of the state.  if the population is a little out of whack then work to fix it is all i'm asking.  one buck rule, ARs, whatever i don't care.  trying some of this through educated trial and error would before i'm liberated again saying it's subjective and benefits may or may not be worth it, within the whitetail biologist community they've defined practically any of it to the point there's at least a consensus.  DEC's current position of letting voluntary restraint happen for 5 years is fine but only if they push education like heck and give the general public the tools and knowledge to even make a reasonably educated decision.  even then i have reservations about the results some think will be had and it still won't be openly apparent to the public which areas could use help.  i just talked with another DEC regional biologist again this weekend about data collection and what can be done to help them with it.

[Larry]

Sorry about bring this back from the DEAD but it looks like this crappy bill will be taking its last breath soon and die in committee  

[dbHunterNY]

15 hours ago, Larry said:

Sorry about bring this back from the DEAD but it looks like this crappy bill will be taking its last breath soon and die in committee  

is it good to resurrect attention to something you hate?? lol  not to burst your bubble but that's not exactly the truth.  the bill is just as alive now as it has always been.  this years legislative session is over but it's still a bill and ready for next years session to start.  in a day it could make it out of committee.  then it's quickly read 3 times to stand a real chance at reaching a floor vote. honestly it hasn't gotten much attention to do so.  just the public back and forth.  after next years session is when bills will die and have to be refiled and drafted.  you don't want it rewritten either, because rewritten bills are stronger.  it'll be interesting to see what happens after 5 years of voluntary restraint and education.  it's easy to drop yearling buck harvest from around 70% like we've done, but i have a feeling we're not going to get much better at this point.  when it doesn't change much, i'm not sure how the DEC will talk about it.  there's only so many management tools in the bag and people will be looking for a "next step". DEC already burned the "no change" card when they openly told the public to expect things to improve.

[Larry]

just to let you know the buck havest is not at 70% 1.5 year old it's about 50/50

one more thing pa has had AR's fort 15years and they are only at 59% of the harvest 2.5 year old or older.

I'm not willing to force my way of hunting on anyone for 9% ( I do pass on small bucks and do not share how many buck I've killed over 125)

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Larry

[growalot]

Hey thanks Larry I've been waiting for an opening  since I got my new NYODN.. to ask this question:

The paper reported that PA just found another (this may be wrong it's from memory) 25 cases of CWD. The second I read about the increase...what ever it was,(I'll look later) this popped into my mind. Did they ever have a case before  AR's  and as their AR program progresses and cases increase Are they asking , Is there a connection? If possible, why?

[gjs4]

The state has to manage for culture more than the herd. Changes from Sunday hunting, multiple youth bills and seasons, etc... yet minimal interface or understanding of what the herd is in terms of health. They hide behind their numbers from their math from their small samples. Point in being the DEC will never be an ally with regard to improving deer hunting for those in it for the deer as they're about selling admission for the privilege. Not saying this to just slam the dec but letting a 4 Pt become a 5pt won't change the pressure, total take or overall age structure. It will merely bump the median age of the take. I'll back ARs as they should make the pumpkins look before they shoot ..... but know the culture will stay until the current generation passes and by the time hunting could be better here- we will be lucky to hunt.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Larry]

RIP

DEAD FOR THIS YEAR!

GOT SOME INFO IT MAY NOT BE BACK BUT WHO KNOWS

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Oh it will be back...Less hunters every year and the majority of hunters want bigger mature animals. It Will Be back.

[dbHunterNY]

On 6/30/2017 at 5:38 PM, Larry said:

just to let you know the buck havest is not at 70% 1.5 year old it's about 50/50

one more thing pa has had AR's fort 15years and they are only at 59% of the harvest 2.5 year old or older.

I'm not willing to force my way of hunting on anyone for 9% ( I do pass on small bucks and do not share how many buck I've killed over 125)

 

Larry I did not say we were at 70% yearling buck harvest.  I said we've brought it down from that.  DEC published yearling buck take back in 1995 for their "Buck Hunting" page was 70% with them showing a tend going down (despite with huge swings).  the point i was trying to make and problem that exists, that really has nothing to do with ARs is they set people up to expect this trend to continue.  in reality it's probably going to level off and we won't get much better now through voluntary restraint.  good, bad, or indifferent i'm just stating how i think it'll turn out.

PA started out with even higher numbers that got lower.  Shooting Pope & Young bucks shouldn't even be relevant.  AR's aren't the best means to produce record book antlers if that's your intentions, despite that can be the outcome.  Everyone, DEC included, has made this into a social push and shove topic about growing bigger antlers.  Fact is ARs that are appropriately 3 or 4 points on a single side aren't going to affect opportunity as much as hunters think they will from what i've seen and heard throughout the state, whether that change on paper is 9 or (insert number here)%.

The whole idea is to have a conservation mindset and make it a point to pass the youngest of the buck population, most of the time.  Meaning it's about ensuring there's a sustainable and sufficient buck population for the deer to be well off throughout the state.  Right now it's accepted that buck numbers are great in some areas and depressingly low in others, regardless of the habitat differences of regions within the state, and there's no reason it has to be that way.  The latter situation inflates the first thought being "well i'm getting my buck before this guy next to me gets to it first".  When in all honesty they should be excited and thinking when they can get outdoors next and wondering what they'll see (not shoot).   AR's still allowing a very reasonable chance at shooting a buck with the opportunity they'd create.  If someone told me that does still doesn't matter and they only benefit from the kill i'd tell them to put down their weapon, pick up another hobby, and go see a head doc.

Conservation is all about sustainability and we don't really ensure any sustainable population right now.  There's tags every season take ANY and EVERY deer walking NY dirt in the possession of hunters that got them over the counter.  That's not wildlife management that's banking heavily on precedent and management pondering of whomever buys a tag, uneducated or not.  ARs are just a quantitative management tool that seems to work the best for what it's supposed to do and only reason it's still relevant and used by multiple state wildlife agencies and professional deer herd managers.  There's hunters out there in large numbers that don't have the ability to tell bucks apart to make any decision.  Thankfully with the spread of QDM education that number seems to be lowering regardless of the will power behind the trigger.  frankly it's not even reasonable to assume all hunters will have a QDM mindset.  same as it's not very easy for the average hunter to age a buck on the hoof, but he or she can count points (i hope).  I mean they already have to break out the ruler and judge 3".  At the very least something good has definitely come out of this.  Everyone who reads the bill will have a good idea of where to start with testing out a voluntary antler restriction for where that their peers seem to think is reasonable.  Try it and see how it works.

[gjs4]

Oh it will be back...Less hunters every year and the majority of hunters want bigger mature animals. It Will Be back.

For the most part- I see it as an inverse relationship between age and interest in AR. Ironically- those with the most time afield, and free time in general, still feel their interest should captain the boat.

Can see the start to every AR opposition letter .... I've been hunting 45 years and this antler restriction crap is for the birds.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stubby68]

1 hour ago, gjs4 said:

 

For the most part- I see it as an inverse relationship between age and interest in AR. Ironically- those with the most time afield, and free time in general, still feel their interest should captain the boat.

Can see the start to every AR opposition letter .... I've been hunting 45 years and this antler restriction crap is for the birds.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

That's because those of us who spend most of our time in the woods. In and out of season. Know what is actually out there. Some big ones may be seen during season but we know many more are there that can only be seen with lots of time in the woods year around

[Buckmaster7600]

Larry I did not say we were at 70% yearling buck harvest.  I said we've brought it down from that.  DEC published yearling buck take back in 1995 for their "Buck Hunting" page was 70% with them showing a tend going down (despite with huge swings).  the point i was trying to make and problem that exists, that really has nothing to do with ARs is they set people up to expect this trend to continue.  in reality it's probably going to level off and we won't get much better now through voluntary restraint.  good, bad, or indifferent i'm just stating how i think it'll turn out.
PA started out with even higher numbers that got lower.  Shooting Pope & Young bucks shouldn't even be relevant.  AR's aren't the best means to produce record book antlers if that's your intentions, despite that can be the outcome.  Everyone, DEC included, has made this into a social push and shove topic about growing bigger antlers.  Fact is ARs that are appropriately 3 or 4 points on a single side aren't going to affect opportunity as much as hunters think they will from what i've seen and heard throughout the state, whether that change on paper is 9 or (insert number here)%.
The whole idea is to have a conservation mindset and make it a point to pass the youngest of the buck population, most of the time.  Meaning it's about ensuring there's a sustainable and sufficient buck population for the deer to be well off throughout the state.  Right now it's accepted that buck numbers are great in some areas and depressingly low in others, regardless of the habitat differences of regions within the state, and there's no reason it has to be that way.  The latter situation inflates the first thought being "well i'm getting my buck before this guy next to me gets to it first".  When in all honesty they should be excited and thinking when they can get outdoors next and wondering what they'll see (not shoot).   AR's still allowing a very reasonable chance at shooting a buck with the opportunity they'd create.  If someone told me that does still doesn't matter and they only benefit from the kill i'd tell them to put down their weapon, pick up another hobby, and go see a head doc.
Conservation is all about sustainability and we don't really ensure any sustainable population right now.  There's tags every season take ANY and EVERY deer walking NY dirt in the possession of hunters that got them over the counter.  That's not wildlife management that's banking heavily on precedent and management pondering of whomever buys a tag, uneducated or not.  ARs are just a quantitative management tool that seems to work the best for what it's supposed to do and only reason it's still relevant and used by multiple state wildlife agencies and professional deer herd managers.  There's hunters out there in large numbers that don't have the ability to tell bucks apart to make any decision.  Thankfully with the spread of QDM education that number seems to be lowering regardless of the will power behind the trigger.  frankly it's not even reasonable to assume all hunters will have a QDM mindset.  same as it's not very easy for the average hunter to age a buck on the hoof, but he or she can count points (i hope).  I mean they already have to break out the ruler and judge 3".  At the very least something good has definitely come out of this.  Everyone who reads the bill will have a good idea of where to start with testing out a voluntary antler restriction for where that their peers seem to think is reasonable.  Try it and see how it works.

I'm not for or against AR's because they won't affect my hunting at all. That being said I don't feel your point holds any water. If the primary reason for AR's is conservation "keeping some bucks alive" as you say then they then I don't see how they are needed statistics show we still have bucks. For the last hundred years of a deer seasons we have been "following" the current rules and we still have bucks. With the ever declining hunting licenses sales if there is a shortage of bucks it should be fixing itself with less hunters killing them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wolc123]

AR restrictions of 3 points on a side, for the first two weeks of archery and gun seasons, might be a good compromise.  I would still only be for it if it can be shown, by looking at data from PA, that AR's improve hunter safety.  I could see where slowing folks down a bit and forcing them to identify their target might improve safety.  Without proof of that, I would prefer no AR's.  4 points on a side AR's for the whole season (as was proposed for my home zone of 9F in the subject bill) is a definite no-go for me, so I am glad it fell thru. 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by wolc123