SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[gjs4]

That's because those of us who spend most of our time in the woods. In and out of season. Know what is actually out there. Some big ones may be seen during season but we know many more are there that can only be seen with lots of time in the woods year around

Amen. Scouting a few days every week all year.... only hunt a few. That adage about sharpening axes comes to mind. Most don't have a clue what NY, let alone where they hunt, has for deer. This thread makes me crack up to think that some feel the experience will be enhanced by passing poorer genetics 1yos and knocking out the better ones will lead to more opportunities is sickening. Can't fix stupid.


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[gjs4]

AR restrictions of 3 points on a side, for the first two weeks of archery and gun seasons, might be a good compromise.  I would still only be for it if it can be shown, by looking at data from PA, that AR's improve hunter safety.  I could see where slowing folks down a bit and forcing them to identify their target might improve safety.  Without proof of that, I would prefer no AR's.  4 points on a side AR's for the whole season (as was proposed for my home zone of 9F in the subject bill) is a definite no-go for me, so I am glad it fell thru. 
 

Just curious on why a 3 pt is too small but a 4 pt is okay (and yes I saw you said per side). I think you should up your goals to a no on a 3yo and yes on a 4yo because your previous approach was killing babies regardless.


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[dbHunterNY]

I'm not for or against AR's because they won't affect my hunting at all. That being said I don't feel your point holds any water. If the primary reason for AR's is conservation "keeping some bucks alive" as you say then they then I don't see how they are needed statistics show we still have bucks. For the last hundred years of a deer seasons we have been "following" the current rules and we still have bucks. With the ever declining hunting licenses sales if there is a shortage of bucks it should be fixing itself with less hunters killing them.

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Multiple points. multitasking as it was typed. Statewide sure we have always had and will probably always have bucks. Sure bucks will naturally fill in pockets where there are less and something no matter how small and few is always around. That doesn't mean jack to a hunter on their little piece of heaven or someone with the only place they have permission if everything legal in sight gets butchered to the point they feel there's little they can do. Even the strongest willed people have a hard swallow hunting in its Brown it's down territory. That situation to them isn't a sustainable population doing well. Biological buck to doe ratio that's corrected each off season doesn't matter to a hunter if halfway into opening week they don't see anything with antlers for the rest of the season or maybe at all to begin with. Where's the motivation to continue hunting if little to nothing's there? Isn't about making it easy and participation trophy B.S either. Also hunting within the blue line is signing up for something different with different expectations. How many here see a deer or even a little buck and get recharged with motivation to stay on stand longer? How many have a slow day and think about ducking out a little early?

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[stubby68]

12 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

Multiple points. multitasking as it was typed. Statewide sure we have always had and will probably always have bucks. Sure bucks will naturally fill in pockets where there are less and something no matter how small and few is always around. That doesn't mean jack to a hunter on their little piece of heaven or someone with the only place they have permission if everything legal in sight gets butchered to the point they feel there's little they can do. Even the strongest willed people have a hard swallow hunting in its Brown it's down territory. That situation to them isn't a sustainable population doing well. Biological buck to doe ratio that's corrected each off season doesn't matter to a hunter if halfway into opening week they don't see anything with antlers for the rest of the season or maybe at all to begin with. Where's the motivation to continue hunting if little to nothing's there? Isn't about making it easy and participation trophy B.S either. Also hunting within the blue line is signing up for something different with different expectations. How many here see a deer or even a little buck and get recharged with motivation to stay on stand longer? How many have a slow day and think about ducking out a little early?

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    Never once have I stayed in stand longer because I am seeing deer nor have I cut out early because I am not seeing any. I hunt dark to dark no matter what.

         As for not seeing the bucks during  the season, that does not tell me anything. When I am not seeing them all year than I will worry. We did have a few yearson our property where numbers were down but they are good now and getting better every year.  I am in the woods almost more then at work or home. Good bucks are seen all summer and fall just because I do not see them all during season just means they are moving where I am not setting or when I'm not there. It does not tell me they are not there. 

            The people who are in the woods all the time know the bucks are there we have been seeing them for months. Someone not seeing them during season when that is the only time they are out other a couple times during the year means nothing in regards of them not being there.

        I know not all hunters have the ability or time to spend in the woods all year .  But for them to say big bucks are not there just because they don't see them the few times they do get out is not right. Not much different then someone who does not get in the woods much saying the whole population is way down because they didn't see anything the 3 times they were out. Or saying the population is up because they see 15 deer at once in a field. They only way to truly know what is out there is to spend lots of time in the woods. I don't mean just walking actually go out an sit all day and watch nature. Do that enough and you get a real idea of what is out there.

[stubby68]

         I have seen posted a few times that afterm the brown is down generation is gone then things will better. Suggesting that they are hurting the buck population. As buck master said the bucks are still here and so are thexpected rest of the deer. One would think that by now we wouldn't have any older bucks left as they all get killed as yearlings with no chance to age. Yet every year we see big old bucks being killed and if not killed there are plenty of trail cam pics showing them.

[Buckmaster7600]

Multiple points. multitasking as it was typed. Statewide sure we have always had and will probably always have bucks. Sure bucks will naturally fill in pockets where there are less and something no matter how small and few is always around. That doesn't mean jack to a hunter on their little piece of heaven or someone with the only place they have permission if everything legal in sight gets butchered to the point they feel there's little they can do. Even the strongest willed people have a hard swallow hunting in its Brown it's down territory. That situation to them isn't a sustainable population doing well. Biological buck to doe ratio that's corrected each off season doesn't matter to a hunter if halfway into opening week they don't see anything with antlers for the rest of the season or maybe at all to begin with. Where's the motivation to continue hunting if little to nothing's there? Isn't about making it easy and participation trophy B.S either. Also hunting within the blue line is signing up for something different with different expectations. How many here see a deer or even a little buck and get recharged with motivation to stay on stand longer? How many have a slow day and think about ducking out a little early?

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I know you're very passionate and put a ton of work into what you believe in and I respect the hell out of you for it!

I live on the southern most edge of the NZ our deer have to survive 57 days of being chased by hunters with firearms on Ag land. It's probably one of the worst place in NY to be a buck yet we still see some nice bucks every year. Could it be much better absolutely! Is placing a 3-4pt per side AR going to fix it? I don't think so. Hunting pressure is still high with way too long of gun seasons any buck with just over the legal amount of points still isn't going to have a good shot at survival. My southern zone hunting camp has been 3 pts on a side for 5 or 6 years now and I have yet to see a difference. We still average 1 nice buck a year of our 600 acre lease and our neighbors still average 4-6 immature bucks a year"that they admit to."

I'm not against change because I have hunted a bunch of other states and I know NY hunting leaves a lot to be desired but I don't see AR's helping it.


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[Doc]

7 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

Where's the motivation to continue hunting if little to nothing's there?
 

One can also ask, "Where's the motivation to continue hunting if little to nothing of someone's arbitrary legal standards are there?"  How long can most hunters watch bucks that he can't shoot walk by before he begins to start thinking of all the other things he could be doing where success appears a whole lot more likely.

There is always at least two different ways to look at these things.

[dbHunterNY]

3 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

I know you're very passionate and put a ton of work into what you believe in and I respect the hell out of you for it!

I live on the southern most edge of the NZ our deer have to survive 57 days of being chased by hunters with firearms on Ag land. It's probably one of the worst place in NY to be a buck yet we still see some nice bucks every year. Could it be much better absolutely! Is placing a 3-4pt per side AR going to fix it? I don't think so. Hunting pressure is still high with way too long of gun seasons any buck with just over the legal amount of points still isn't going to have a good shot at survival. My southern zone hunting camp has been 3 pts on a side for 5 or 6 years now and I have yet to see a difference. We still average 1 nice buck a year of our 600 acre lease and our neighbors still average 4-6 immature bucks a year"that they admit to."

I'm not against change because I have hunted a bunch of other states and I know NY hunting leaves a lot to be desired but I don't see AR's helping it.


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it doesn't though.  some great hunting to be had in NY without huge tracts being tied up by established outfitters, further preventing access.  it's just very difficult for me knowing what's been accomplished on ny qdm co-ops with very little effort, not going full on qdm deer manager trying to attack all aspects to make things better, and seeing how hunting pales in comparison even in the next town over.  what i've often found is areas and hunters that could use or want help and guidance are willing to do what's needed to make things better.  they just don't have the know with all and mostly framework to do so and resources to go to when something seems off.  i tried for years to do the same thing a structured co-op does and failed.  i didn't go about it as organized and formal as i should've.  fast forward to now and we're one of the largest co-ops in the northeast with growing pains to go with it. as in people play along and see it works but the education of what and why gets left in the dust.  it probably seems like i champion antler restrictions on here but fact is it's just another tool in the box for me that i know can work for the general public, despite not being a fix all.  if they didn't work people wouldn't still be pushing them.  other states wouldn't continue to have them, whether some people on here want to believe those points or not.  it's all in what you expect from them though.  many here are avid and knowledgeable enough AR's might hold them back.  in the same breathe though most admit they won't be effected by it as it's mostly less than their standards to suite more people as a whole.  i'm just tired and numb when people write them off instead of being open minded to honestly acknowledge what they can and can't do.  they have so much push back though they get watered down or fit into a socially excepted mold versus a balance of maintaining opportunity versus what are you should be protecting for your area.  hunters seem to be so concerned with yearling buck antler quality and what genetics they've got they fail to see how much a bucks start in life effects them.  protecting just a little more does a lot for deer ecology and showing antler potential.  people really want to see what potential is out there pass a super majority of yearlings and don't judge their potential too early.  after just their first year they're a little more elusive and the cream of the crop will more likely blossom and show itself, without getting snuffed off before anyone realizes it.  the nature of it all with deer being deer and the fact it's called hunting then takes over.  age structure and many biologically warranted needs are met.  hunters can let their will power and personal standards take over and enjoy a better ride.  that to me is conservation and sustainability.  bettering not just your hunting but hunting for others in the area and the deer too.

on a side note, here's some more fuel for the fire.  not thinking of anyone particular but if someone says "i don't want to force my hunting standards and beliefs on others".  then say "well it doesn't effect me much but i'm speaking for the other guy."  guess what?! you've just made your beliefs his or hers!  let them speak for themselves.

[dbHunterNY]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

One can also ask, "Where's the motivation to continue hunting if little to nothing of someone's arbitrary legal standards are there?"  How long can most hunters watch bucks that he can't shoot walk by before he begins to start thinking of all the other things he could be doing where success appears a whole lot more likely.

There is always at least two different ways to look at these things.

one season Doc.  one season as a now legal buck.  how old are you and you can't justify giving a deer just 2 full years of life?  it's the equivalent of letting a teen see his OR HER 13th or 14th bday. i know we aren't exactly comparing apples to apples but i'd like to think we all can still respect the idea of a living thing actually living.

[Buckmaster7600]

it doesn't though.  some great hunting to be had in NY without huge tracts being tied up by established outfitters, further preventing access.  it's just very difficult for me knowing what's been accomplished on ny qdm co-ops with very little effort, not going full on qdm deer manager trying to attack all aspects to make things better, and seeing how hunting pales in comparison even in the next town over.  what i've often found is areas and hunters that could use or want help and guidance are willing to do what's needed to make things better.  they just don't have the know with all and mostly framework to do so and resources to go to when something seems off.  i tried for years to do the same thing a structured co-op does and failed.  i didn't go about it as organized and formal as i should've.  fast forward to now and we're one of the largest co-ops in the northeast with growing pains to go with it. as in people play along and see it works but the education of what and why gets left in the dust.  it probably seems like i champion antler restrictions on here but fact is it's just another tool in the box for me that i know can work for the general public, despite not being a fix all.  if they didn't work people wouldn't still be pushing them.  other states wouldn't continue to have them, whether some people on here want to believe those points or not.  it's all in what you expect from them though.  many here are avid and knowledgeable enough AR's might hold them back.  in the same breathe though most admit they won't be effected by it as it's mostly less than their standards to suite more people as a whole.  i'm just tired and numb when people write them off instead of being open minded to honestly acknowledge what they can and can't do.  they have so much push back though they get watered down or fit into a socially excepted mold versus a balance of maintaining opportunity versus what are you should be protecting for your area.  hunters seem to be so concerned with yearling buck antler quality and what genetics they've got they fail to see how much a bucks start in life effects them.  protecting just a little more does a lot for deer ecology and showing antler potential.  people really want to see what potential is out there pass a super majority of yearlings and don't judge their potential too early.  after just their first year they're a little more elusive and the cream of the crop will more likely blossom and show itself, without getting snuffed off before anyone realizes it.  the nature of it all with deer being deer and the fact it's called hunting then takes over.  age structure and many biologically warranted needs are met.  hunters can let their will power and personal standards take over and enjoy a better ride.  that to me is conservation and sustainability.  bettering not just your hunting but hunting for others in the area and the deer too.

on a side note, here's some more fuel for the fire.  not thinking of anyone particular but if someone says "i don't want to force my hunting standards and beliefs on others".  then say "well it doesn't effect me much but i'm speaking for the other guy."  guess what?! you've just made your beliefs his or hers!  let them speak for themselves.

Although I'm not completely on board with you keep fighting the good fight! Anyone with eyes and a brain knows this state has room for improvement on deer management I don't think AR's are the way to go but something might be better than nothing.

I will say if it does eventually go through and in X number of years we see improvement I will be the first to thank you for all your hard work.


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

33 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

  it's the equivalent of letting a teen see his OR HER 13th or 14th bday. i know we aren't exactly comparing apples to apples but i'd like to think we all can still respect the idea of a living thing actually living.

Oh for Christ sake.

[dbHunterNY]

20 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Although I'm not completely on board with you keep fighting the good fight! Anyone with eyes and a brain knows this state has room for improvement on deer management I don't think AR's are the way to go but something might be better than nothing.

I will say if it does eventually go through and in X number of years we see improvement I will be the first to thank you for all your hard work.


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i have problems with the bill originally in question and don't think it'll go anywhere the way it is.  that said i'm open for whatever will make things better and i realize someone's gotta fight for it.  i pick and choose my battles for sure.  have to in order to enjoy it for your self a along the way, but if you really care about something it's only natural to leave it in a better place for the next person or better off than you had it.

[dbHunterNY]

12 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Oh for Christ sake.

quiet Bob it was partially meant as a joke!  maybe i should shut up?  where wolc mentioning Jesus in a thread when you need them.  bunch of heartless savages.

[gjs4]

         I have seen posted a few times that afterm the brown is down generation is gone then things will better. Suggesting that they are hurting the buck population. As buck master said the bucks are still here and so are thexpected rest of the deer. One would think that by now we wouldn't have any older bucks left as they all get killed as yearlings with no chance to age. Yet every year we see big old bucks being killed and if not killed there are plenty of trail cam pics showing them.

In what quantity!?!? 220,000 bucks killed and there are 200 over 150"
Or 4 (real not DEC bs) years old in the whole state. Genetics are the issue- entitled gun hunters are... the same group that won't shoot does, knows nothing of conservation... just a I earned it trip to camp/"the country".


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[wolc123]

On 7/5/2017 at 9:08 PM, gjs4 said:

Just curious on why a 3 pt is too small but a 4 pt is okay (and yes I saw you said per side). I think you should up your goals to a no on a 3yo and yes on a 4yo because your previous approach was killing babies regardless.


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Would you consider yourself a trophy hunter ?  As a meat hunter, it is hard for me to imagine better deer hunting than we have here in NY state.   There is no place I would rather hunt.   

I am sorry but I find all of your posts nearly impossible to understand.  It seems like you turn everything backwards.   For example, in this case  I said I was ok with 3 pt per side AR's but not 4 pts.  What gives?

Edited July 7, 2017 by wolc123

[stubby68]

1 hour ago, gjs4 said:

 

In what quantity!?!? 220,000 bucks killed and there are 200 over 150"
Or 4 (real not DEC bs) years old in the whole state. Genetics are the issue- entitled gun hunters are... the same group that won't shoot does, knows nothing of conservation... just a I earned it trip to camp/"the country".


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And how do we know the score of all the bucks killed. Did someone age each and every buck killed? Oh that's right the number or points tells us how it scored and it's age. Never have I met a gun hunter who will not take a doe. Now if you mean a bow hunter who also uses a gun then you would be correct.regardless of who kills what bucks they are still here. And have been . Why is it gun hunters always are the blame when bow hunters can't get a big buck every time they go out.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

A bow hunter will always have a step up on the Hunter part of it just because of what it takes with a bow. Many gun shooters do not have what it takes to be a bow hunters and so,so many more do not have it to be a mature/Trophy buck bow hunter.Just the way it is. Now many use their muzzleloader to get them more of a one on one hunt.Some chose to work their ass off up in the big woods where deer are few and even with a high powered rifle they still have to "Hunt" more for their success.

For the average guy to go out with his trusty 300mag and dump one from a tower blind in the center of a field??  A "Hunt" yes but not the kind of Hunter a bow hunter must be to harvest mature deer.

[wolc123]

14 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

A bow hunter will always have a step up on the Hunter part of it just because of what it takes with a bow. Many gun shooters do not have what it takes to be a bow hunters and so,so many more do not have it to be a mature/Trophy buck bow hunter.Just the way it is. Now many use their muzzleloader to get them more of a one on one hunt.Some chose to work their ass off up in the big woods where deer are few and even with a high powered rifle they still have to "Hunt" more for their success.

For the average guy to go out with his trusty 300mag and dump one from a tower blind in the center of a field??  A "Hunt" yes but not the kind of Hunter a bow hunter must be to harvest mature deer.

Kind of like the guy who puts a nice fat nightcrawler on a hook, watches his bobber goes down and reels in a trout on his spinning tackle compared the fella with the classic split-bamboo flyrod who takes one on a hand-tied "match the hatch" dry fly.  

[Larry]

Most land in this state is in privet hands and with some fairly liberal rules land owners can manage deer on their land almost the way they want. It doesn’t matter if you have 10 acres or a 1000.you can set your own rules you can apply for DMP’s and DMAP’s and in some cases crop deprivation permits. Hell you can even bait as long as you plant it and not pile it. So manage deer on your land the way you want and let the other guys manage deer the way they want. Some of you have forgotten the deer don’t belong to us. AR’s are not needed.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Larry

[Doc]

18 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

one season Doc.  one season as a now legal buck.  how old are you and you can't justify giving a deer just 2 full years of life?  it's the equivalent of letting a teen see his OR HER 13th or 14th bday. i know we aren't exactly comparing apples to apples but i'd like to think we all can still respect the idea of a living thing actually living.

Oh come-on. I have never heard such drivel since the introduction of Disney's Bambi. I never can remember that term that somebody invented that describes when someone is assigning human qualities and emotions to animals, but here is a good example of it. Ok, I looked it up ...... "anthropomorphize" is what I was trying to think of.

Look, take one small twitch to the left, and those words will be spoken by a full-fledged animal-rights advocate. If you want to let living things actually live, don't stop at two years, or 3, or 5, or 10. Just throw down your gun and let them live until some car or coyote or disease rubs them out ..... lol.

[gjs4]

Would you consider yourself a trophy hunter ?  As a meat hunter, it is hard for me to imagine better deer hunting than we have here in NY state.   There is no place I would rather hunt.   
I am sorry but I find all of your posts nearly impossible to understand.  It seems like you turn everything backwards.   For example, in this case  I said I was ok with 3 pt per side AR's but not 4 pts.  What gives?

We love venison (5-6 deer a yrs worth). I won't shoot little bucks. The experience is my trophy. If I still fished I wouldn't keep Minnows saying I am hungry.

So sorry on my posts. How can I turn them forward or make them easier to understand?

As for now being the apex of hunting- not sure where you live, if/what your standards are or where your desires come in.... but it's easy to surmise we are not in the same place for our appreciation of deer hunting in this state. Have you hunted out of NY?


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[growalot]

OK lets try this...for these post become pages of blah,blah, blah every single year.

Here are 5 deer taken by me from  the last few years. Now I consider ALL of the deer except the 9pt young deer,and he's probably no more than 3 1/2.  You tell me

1. how would your AR's protect these buck to another year

2. exactly how would another year have drastically or even minimally improved the herd in one year from say that little 6 to the 8 next to it. especially if taken during early bow season.

Here my biggest issue with you guys...It's never enough for you...look at that 9pt. ,first I'm happy with each of those buck and hunts, a guy looked at him and said to me..."Just imagine if you'd let him live one more year ".  See that statement sums it up in a nut shell, the next thing you'll want is a minimum base circumference rule...it's never ending.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Nice deer for sure for many a people but the last 6-8 years or so the weapon would not get lifted for any but #4. If i have found bigger in the area with him and it was early season then he would prob get the pass also. Then kick myself in the arse for not taking him while i throw that tag away. I believe hunters age and past play a huge part in making choices.Having your own property or land locked down makes a big difference in many hunters choices. Even big areas of state land with multiple keepers on it would have an effect on when to lower the boom on a buck.

[Buckmaster7600]

OK lets try this...for these post become pages of blah,blah, blah every single year.
Here are 5 deer taken by me from  the last few years. Now I consider ALL of the deer except the 9pt young deer,and he's probably no more than 3 1/2.  You tell me
1. how would your AR's protect these buck to another year
2. exactly how would another year have drastically or even minimally improved the herd in one year from say that little 6 to the 8 next to it. especially if taken during early bow season.
Here my biggest issue with you guys...It's never enough for you...look at that 9pt. ,first I'm happy with each of those buck and hunts, a guy looked at him and said to me..."Just imagine if you'd let him live one more year ".  See that statement sums it up in a nut shell, the next thing you'll want is a minimum base circumference rule...it's never ending.

Well given that the topic of the thread is "yearling protection act" and from the pictures all the bucks look to be at least 2yrs old, absolutely nothing.


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[WNYBuckHunter]

22 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

one season Doc.  one season as a now legal buck.  how old are you and you can't justify giving a deer just 2 full years of life?  it's the equivalent of letting a teen see his OR HER 13th or 14th bday. i know we aren't exactly comparing apples to apples but i'd like to think we all can still respect the idea of a living thing actually living.

That is quite possibly the dumbest reasoning for letting young deer walk that Ive ever heard. Make sure you dont shoot Thumper or Flower while youre out small game hunting either. Wouldnt want Bambi to be lonely without his friends.