SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[growalot]

yearling protection for the AR group is all about points....3-4 for on a side and let me say that you still haven't told me how protecting a 5or even a 4 point 21/2 will improve the heard when he gets shot as a 6pt or an small 8 pt before breeding the following year...

[growalot]

Quote

Well given that the topic of the thread is "yearling protection act" and from the pictures all the bucks look to be at least 2yrs old, absolutely nothing.
 

Ohhh so what your saying is all they really NEED is and AR that is minimum 2 points to a side ...right?

[Buckmaster7600]

yearling protection for the AR group is all about points....3-4 for on a side and let me say that you still haven't told me how protecting a 5or even a 4 point 21/2 will improve the heard when he gets shot as a 6pt or an small 8 pt before breeding the following year...

Grow I hate AR's probably more than you but if you can't understand how a statistic works we are both wasting our time. In my time in the field I would say that 3/4 of all yearling bucks I have saw have 5 or less points. So in areas I hunt with a 4 on a side rule roughly 3/4 of all yearling bucks would be illegal to shoot. Your mileage may be different because NY Is a big state and you could be a few hundred miles from me.

All that being said I hate AR's and I still think they are a bandaid on a bullet hole idea that will quiet the yells and not fix much.


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[growalot]

We agree on that though, it's not a band-aid it's a Ohh look at us, we won this lets see what else we can limit for us to get big trophy sized buck and improve our hunting...See the next thing on the line up when they aren't seeing what they want will be the inside spread....BTW that nine had a small inside spread.....The biggest buck I have ever encountered, the one that made me nearly pass out in the stand had a 12 in inside spread...Laying on the ground and standing to hold the rack , that rack came up past the guys waist,  who shot him a week later and a couple of miles away, .. his brows were 11 3/4 " tall and the rest of his points towered above them. Genetics...some areas have multiple point yearlings..yes as myself and WNYBH have mentioned and apparently yours as well. Some areas have narrow racked buck ..people say basket racks like it's an insult...others have very wide short pointed buck or older spikes 4's and 6's AR's are not a band-aid it is a potential danger for poor genetics.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

33 minutes ago, growalot said:

yearling protection for the AR group is all about points....3-4 for on a side and let me say that you still haven't told me how protecting a 5or even a 4 point 21/2 will improve the heard when he gets shot as a 6pt or an small 8 pt before breeding the following year...

The likelihood that those bucks that make it into their second year are tougher to take and have a better chance to grow further. Also in the first two years the bulk of the nutrition goes to building body as they grow. SO once they hit that 2nd year rack (or better yet their 3rd). more nutrition can be spent on the antlers. The older bucks will put up with the rigors of the rut better than the younger bucks. I've watched 1-1/2 year old bucks running does will before they were ready to breed. They don't get the process yet. Kind of like frat boys at a bar on Friday night at 9 pm. LOL. With an over abundance of does  and multiple rutting periods it can really take a draw down on all the bucks. A more natural age structure with a better buck to doe ratio is better for the herd overall. 

[growalot]

Still as I said all those buck were young...and I talk nearly every year of the 6pts that follow me around like puppie dogs during bow season..it's in many post. AR do not help buck like that...education as far as giving people a CHOICE on deer size and possible ageing...With the #'s of doe across the state there isn't any way to stop what you describe ...because the adult buck can not corral all the doe coming in season AND as far as the late season well those older deer are depleted and laying a bit low while the doe fawn come into their first breeding cycle. So your young saved buck will be hitting it hard then..why? because they will be the ones push off and usually with the younger doe anyways...

Now what do deer do naturally? Well when they see  an unbalanced herd and I do not know how, they produce more of one gender then the other. Yes there are studies on this and I can say I have been seeing far more buck fawn then doe being produced in this area...herds have been naturally trying to balance them selves forever. When the DEC made their little Ooppss some years ago and the, it's brown down mentality was in full swing with lots of doe permits followed by a couple of horrendous winters...we were seeing many more doe fawn and believe it or not...for the conditions.... they had way more triplets. In fact I think that was what caused the explosion in the deer herd we see today. So it has started to swing back to more buck fawn.

 This again shows that when the DEC is trying to manage a herd they really don't have a handle on as far as what yearly fawn out put is in gender.  They fail.

Edited July 7, 2017 by growalot

[Buckmaster7600]

Still as I said all those buck were young...and I talk nearly every year of the 6pts that follow me around like puppie dogs during bow season..it's in many post. AR do not help buck like that...education as far as giving people a CHOICE on deer size and possible ageing...With the #'s of doe across the state there isn't any way to stop what you describe ...because the adult buck can not corral all the doe coming in season AND as far as the late season well those older deer are depleted and laying a bit low while the doe fawn come into their first breeding cycle. So your young saved buck will be hitting it hard then..why? because they will be the ones push off and usually with the younger doe anyways...
Now what do deer do naturally? Well when they see  an unbalanced herd and I do not know how, they produce more of one gender then the other. Yes there are studies on this and I can say I have been seeing far more buck fawn then doe being produced in this area...herds have been naturally trying to balance them selves forever. When the DEC made their little Ooppss some years ago and the, it's brown down mentality was in full swing with lots of doe permits followed by a couple of horrendous winters...we were seeing many more doe fawn and believe it or not...for the conditions.... they had way more triplets. In fact I think that was what caused the explosion in the deer herd we see today. So it has started to swing back to more buck fawn.
 This again shows that when the DEC is trying to manage a herd they really don't have a handle on as far as what yearly fawn out put is in gender.  They fail.

Is there a rule or law anywhere that is 100%? The bucks you're talking about are exceptions to the rule.


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[dbHunterNY]

11 hours ago, Larry said:

Most land in this state is in privet hands and with some fairly liberal rules land owners can manage deer on their land almost the way they want. It doesn’t matter if you have 10 acres or a 1000.you can set your own rules you can apply for DMP’s and DMAP’s and in some cases crop deprivation permits. Hell you can even bait as long as you plant it and not pile it. So manage deer on your land the way you want and let the other guys manage deer the way they want. Some of you have forgotten the deer don’t belong to us. AR’s are not needed.

i think that's a big reason why so many want more regulation and flow of info from DEC that relates to what they see with quality deer management efforts. problem being that people, not just hunters, use qdm to achieve different things.  they do it voluntarily, see it work with even a little effort, and then wonder why the state isn't doing the same, using the same tools like ARs.  it doesn't matter if you have contiguous acreage in the tens of thousands, as we do with abutting co-ops, you still get a lot of people asking why doesn't the state do more stuff like we do and that turns into public feedback to match.  another case in point it usually few people doing to behind the seens grunt work of coordinating these qdm efforts, whether it's an actually deer manager, co-op coordinator, or just a landowner in the group.  we've helped guide people to start things like co-ops. it usually ends up with us being asked if we can basically run the whole effort, to which we reply that we don't have the time.  still can help out with guidance and some elbow grease, but we're already spread thin doing our own groups acreage.  so then it circles back to DEC should do some of this.  i know more people that want to hunt under qdm but don't want to do qdm, if that makes sense.

[dbHunterNY]

2 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

That is quite possibly the dumbest reasoning for letting young deer walk that Ive ever heard. Make sure you dont shoot Thumper or Flower while youre out small game hunting either. Wouldnt want Bambi to be lonely without his friends.

well it was a joke so.....  that's probably a logical outcome.  honest to God I was even going to include Bambi but deleted that part of it.  Next time i'll include Disney characters.

[dbHunterNY]

2 hours ago, growalot said:

yearling protection for the AR group is all about points....3-4 for on a side and let me say that you still haven't told me how protecting a 5or even a 4 point 21/2 will improve the heard when he gets shot as a 6pt or an small 8 pt before breeding the following year...

in wolc's case it's more meat?  lots more reasons, despite your assumptions.  we each our own reasons though right?

[Doewhacker]

These threads are kinda like listening to a record in reverse on repeat. Doesn't make a whole lotta sense and nothing changes. 

Eyeroll.....

[Culvercreek hunt club]

1 hour ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

Is there a rule or law anywhere that is 100%? The bucks you're talking about are exceptions to the rule.


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And in areas where the 1.5 year old 6 pointer isn't an exception they can utilize a 4 point on a side rule like the one plan did propose. 

[gjs4]

And how do we know the score of all the bucks killed. Did someone age each and every buck killed? Oh that's right the number or points tells us how it scored and it's age. Never have I met a gun hunter who will not take a doe. Now if you mean a bow hunter who also uses a gun then you would be correct.regardless of who kills what bucks they are still here. And have been . Why is it gun hunters always are the blame when bow hunters can't get a big buck every time they go out.

The comment was made about all these giant deer- merely pointing out they are such a minuscule percentage or the total take. 85% of the deer killed in NY are 2 or younger and 2/3rds of those are 1 yo or less. Can't wait for your rebuttal of what the DEC told you....

What's the best day of gun season? Opening day, right? Why? Because almost everyone of the participants in gun season are the aforementioned slobs and deer die or stop moving. Yes, I gun hunt. Typically only shooting the wounded deer running around post deer drive other some other similar lead spraying activity.


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[wolc123]

17 minutes ago, gjs4 said:

 Because almost everyone of the participants in gun season are the aforementioned slobs

 

I am sure you did not mean that comment and you might just be having a bad day.  As a gun-hunter primarily, I forgive you of your transgression.

[stubby68]

2 hours ago, gjs4 said:

The comment was made about all these giant deer- merely pointing out they are such a minuscule percentage or the total take. 85% of the deer killed in NY are 2 or younger and 2/3rds of those are 1 yo or less. Can't wait for your rebuttal of what the DEC told you....

What's the best day of gun season? Opening day, right? Why? Because almost everyone of the participants in gun season are the aforementioned slobs and deer die or stop moving. Yes, I gun hunt. Typically only shooting the wounded deer running around post deer drive other some other similar lead spraying activity.


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As I asked before how do we know this? Is 3rd buck aged? Is everyone scored or weighed? All we have to go by is the Dec checking a small number of deer and then looking at the number of points that were reported on the other ones . That gives us what? The guess at numbers they put out every year.  

         Funny thing about your slob gun hunters. I find way more deer that died and we're lost from an arrow then gun shots. Just look in this forum. Every year there are people asking for advise or help because they can not find a deer. Always with the I know I made a good shot can not figure it out. Funny thing is that it is always bow hunters doing this very few times is it from gun hunting. So who really is the slob. There are deer lost from both gun and bow. The reason guns are blamed for most of it is because we all hear the gun shots, only the guy with the bow hears his shot. Do not make out like the only slob hunters are the ones useing guns ,bow season has its fair share as well.

[wolc123]

6 hours ago, stubby68 said:

As I asked before how do we know this? Is 3rd buck aged? Is everyone scored or weighed? All we have to go by is the Dec checking a small number of deer and then looking at the number of points that were reported on the other ones . That gives us what? The guess at numbers they put out every year.  

         Funny thing about your slob gun hunters. I find way more deer that died and we're lost from an arrow then gun shots. Just look in this forum. Every year there are people asking for advise or help because they can not find a deer. Always with the I know I made a good shot can not figure it out. Funny thing is that it is always bow hunters doing this very few times is it from gun hunting. So who really is the slob. There are deer lost from both gun and bow. The reason guns are blamed for most of it is because we all hear the gun shots, only the guy with the bow hears his shot. Do not make out like the only slob hunters are the ones useing guns ,bow season has its fair share as well.

Nothing bothered me more in the sport of hunting, than loosing a deer I have shot at and hit, regardless of the weapon I used.  Thankfully, it has been more than 10 years since it happened, and the last time was with my ML.   In my early years of bowhunting, I lost a few.  I remember everything about those lost deer far more clearly than I do those that I have recovered, and the changes I have made as a result will hopefully keep that from happening again.    

The single biggest change I have made, and the one that has prevented any "lost" deer, is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as my Savior.   The Bible says's that "He knows where every sparrow falls".   Certainly that also applies to deer.   Why anyone would not stay on good terms with the Entity that determines the fate of all life is beyond me.   

It has taken me 36 years to get where I want to be as a deer hunter, and I was finally able to make a "perfect" shot (using my scoped rifle) on my last deer last season.  I know that don't mean all of my future shots will be perfect, but that is what I will always aim for, using a ML, crossbow, scoped slug gun, open sight slug gun, scoped rifle, or open sight rifle.  That last one will be new to me this year, so I am putting in lots of time practicing.     

Since NY allowed the crossbow (for a short time anyhow), I have stopped using a bow, but I have lots of respect for those who can consistently get the job done with those.  I have accepted the fact that I will never get to that level with a bow, and now there is no need for me to try.  I am extremely thankful for the opportunity I now have for the best 14 days of archery season in the southern zone, and 3 additional days in the northern zone.  With my crossbow, I have gone 2 for 2, delivering "near-perfect" strikes each time.

 I can not over state how much easier it is to hit a deer where you want to, when it is in the same place when the arrow arrives as when it was released.  That is much easier to do with a crossbow than with a bow, where deer are often moved to a state of high alert, as a result of glimpsing the draw motion.    By eliminating the need to draw with a deer in close, you can eliminate the need to ever shoot at an alert deer. The carnage that the bowhunters leave behind does bother me a bit,  and I also have seen far more of that from them, than I have from gun hunters.   

Edited July 8, 2017 by wolc123

[Doc]

3 hours ago, wolc123 said:

Nothing bothered me more in the sport of hunting, than loosing a deer I have shot at and hit, regardless of the weapon I used.  Thankfully, it has been more than 10 years since it happened, and the last time was with my ML.   In my early years of bowhunting, I lost a few.  I remember everything about those lost deer far more clearly than I do those that I have recovered, and the changes I have made as a result will hopefully keep that from happening again.    

The single biggest change I have made, and the one that has prevented any "lost" deer, is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as my Savior.   The Bible says's that "He knows where every sparrow falls".   Certainly that also applies to deer.   Why anyone would not stay on good terms with the Entity that determines the fate of all life is beyond me.   

It has taken me 36 years to get where I want to be as a deer hunter, and I was finally able to make a "perfect" shot (using my scoped rifle) on my last deer last season.  I know that don't mean all of my future shots will be perfect, but that is what I will always aim for, using a ML, crossbow, scoped slug gun, open sight slug gun, scoped rifle, or open sight rifle.  That last one will be new to me this year, so I am putting in lots of time practicing.     

Since NY allowed the crossbow (for a short time anyhow), I have stopped using a bow, but I have lots of respect for those who can consistently get the job done with those.  I have accepted the fact that I will never get to that level with a bow, and now there is no need for me to try.  I am extremely thankful for the opportunity I now have for the best 14 days of archery season in the southern zone, and 3 additional days in the northern zone.  With my crossbow, I have gone 2 for 2, delivering "near-perfect" strikes each time.

 I can not over state how much easier it is to hit a deer where you want to, when it is in the same place when the arrow arrives as when it was released.  That is much easier to do with a crossbow than with a bow, where deer are often moved to a state of high alert, as a result of glimpsing the draw motion.    By eliminating the need to draw with a deer in close, you can eliminate the need to ever shoot at an alert deer. The carnage that the bowhunters leave behind does bother me a bit,  and I also have seen far more of that from them, than I have from gun hunters.   

Please engage the sarcasm alert!

Actually, that same philosophy would reach the perfect solution if hunting was mandated to be only with scoped rifles of a certain regulated caliber. If we want to keep wounding losses down to a minimum, it sounds like we should only be using the most efficient and successful modern weapon that is produced. The heck with archery, crossbows and black powder crap. Why follow that philosophy only part way?

[wolc123]

27 minutes ago, Doc said:

Please engage the sarcasm alert!

Actually, that same philosophy would reach the perfect solution if hunting was mandated to be only with scoped rifles of a certain regulated caliber. If we want to keep wounding losses down to a minimum, it sounds like we should only be using the most efficient and successful modern weapon that is produced. The heck with archery, crossbows and black powder crap. Why follow that philosophy only part way?

You sound like part of that group that will trade a little "collateral damage" (ie the occasional wounded and non-recovered deer) for more personal challenge.  I am obviously not part of that group, but I am ok with you and many others who are.  Deer are a renewable resource, and there are more than enough to go around, at least in most areas of NY state.  The fact that you may have to fire 26 or so arrows to recover 25 deer is perfectly acceptable to me.  I am not so happy with those who loose one or two deer for every one they recover though.  

Reading the bow-hunting section during hunting season shows all of us that may be the case with some.  How many tales have we heard of endless searches for deer that were never recovered, or only found later after rotting or being half-eaten by coyotes?  I give those folks who help others recover their mistakes using dogs and such a lot of credit, but I hope they don't get too many repeat customers.  Those threads are always highly entertaining but often a little sad at the same time.    

What has been your recovery percentage over the last 10 years?  As stated, I have cleanly killed and recovered 100 % over that period.  A few initial shots were clean misses, or less than perfectly placed requiring a followup.  All of the deer I shot at were recovered by me and relatively cleanly killed.  On average, I take shots when I am 90% sure of a clean kill and recovery, with some minor adjustment based on point of the season and our venison supply at the time.  I am well-aware of the reason 100 % of the deer have been recovered, as I have previously explained (it has to do with my standing with The Guy calling the shots in case you missed that part).    

This sure is a "target rich environment" when it comes to the number of folks who have no clue who is calling the shots.      

 

To answer the specific question you asked whether it was "sarcastic" or not:

My family depends deer as our primary food source.   Hunting them with only a scoped rifle would be ok, if I was the only hunter out there.   I seek no "special" prilvledge, that is not open to all regardless of their physical abilities.  (The Guy calling the shots would never condone that,  for it is all about putting Him first and others ahead of yourself ).  Less importantly, from a scientific/biological standpoint, the deer where I live go nocturnal, soon after the first sounds of gunfire in the woods when gun season opens.   That is why there will always be a time and place for archery hunting.  It would be considerably more difficult keeping my family fed, if only guns were allowed for deer hunting.  Even if I were the only one using a rifle, that rifle would alert other deer in the area of my intent before I was able to get a sufficient quantity of them to "deer heaven" - mankind's food supply.       

[Doc]

Oh I have no problem with what you are saying except that when you join in with those animal right wackos that openly avowed their intension to consider bowhunting to be their number one target in their anti-hunting campaign. Apparently that point flew over your head because of my attempt at sarcasm. But I will say that when you start peddling that line about "my weapon is more humane than yours", you had better be ready for someone to take that all the way looking to ban anything that is not the most efficient and modern and deadly on the market. Your crossbow is less humane than a scoped rifle in terms of capabilities, so why not walk the walk and hold off for the most fool-proof weapon. You either believe in it or you don't. I see you struggling to justify your partial commitment to your principle with the "gee, my family will starve to death if I only use a rifle" argument, but no matter how you spin it, it still smacks of hypocrisy to me.

[dbHunterNY]

It's unique in that I've never lost a deer with a bow. I have with a gun though.

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[Adkhunter1590]

I think traditionally, bow hunters were consider more die hard and put in a lot of time making sure they were very proficient with their bows to make good shots. This is how I was brought up to believe bow hunters were. And with the last 10-15 years bow hunting has exploded in popularity which has brought in a lot of sloppy hunters. I see it all the time, guys who have almost no business shooting a bow go out and take stupid shots at stuff and wonder why they lose deer. Anyone ever seen a deer with 5 arrows sticking out of it, laying on the ground still fighting for life. It's sad. Newbie bow hunter who only got into it because he was tired of waiting for gun season while everyone else started picking up bows.

The tv shows haven't helped any of this in my opinion. So many mikey Waddell wanna bes out there thinking that brand new Hoyt is gonna guide the arrow into the deer for them.

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

I think traditionally, bow hunters were consider more die hard and put in a lot of time making sure they were very proficient with their bows to make good shots. This is how I was brought up to believe bow hunters were. And with the last 10-15 years bow hunting has exploded in popularity which has brought in a lot of sloppy hunters. I see it all the time, guys who have almost no business shooting a bow go out and take stupid shots at stuff and wonder why they lose deer. Anyone ever seen a deer with 5 arrows sticking out of it, laying on the ground still fighting for life. It's sad. Newbie bow hunter who only got into it because he was tired of waiting for gun season while everyone else started picking up bows.

The tv shows haven't helped any of this in my opinion. So many mikey Waddell wanna bes out there thinking that brand new Hoyt is gonna guide the arrow into the deer for them.

And, I have no doubt that we will see similar cases of over-confidence and misunderstanding of a weapon's limits in the new rush to crossbows. The best way to get into a primitive weapons season is to be honest with yourself about personal limitations and the physical limitations of these weapons of hunting challenge. If you can't do that, then you have no business participating. I am a believer that the more primitive the weapon, the more attention that has to be spent understanding the limitations. When you don't do that, you cannot blame the weapon, but rather have to look at the hunter and his motives, impatience, and expectations as well as his willingness to spend the time to master and fully understand his weapon of choice.

And all of that does not assume that gun hunters do not have the same problems of unwillingness to understand their own limitations and needs for practice and familiarization. It all speaks more about the hunter than it does about the weapon.

[Adkhunter1590]

I agree Doc. Me and my buddy and his old man were just talking the other morning about how many gut shot deer that will most likely be running around once crossbow gets full inclusion. I work with a handful of the type of sloppy hunters we are talking about. The one guy even went rifle hunting last season, but it was a week before gun even opened lol! I was like uh dude you know gun season isn't open yet right? He's like o really I thought it opened already. But I know of at least 3 guys in this plant that have all expectations of buying a $300 crossbow and shooting deer at 100 yards or more. We sit outside on break and they tell me how these new crossbows are so good it makes 100 yard shots with ease. The one guy is convinced he can shoot 150 on a regular basis because he saw a guy on YouTube shooting a ballon at 200 yards so 150 should be no problem for him. It's scary to listen to these guys. They all want to hunt with me and I'll never let any of them step foot on my land lol.

I agree too that the same goes for gun hunters. Plenty of guys think that because they bought a expensive rifle and scope that they are Chris Kyle all of a sudden.

[Doc]

Yeah, there are  lot of guys that are looking so hard for the easy way to get deer that they don't even hear (or want to) hear those that try to bring them back to reality. They see this new wonder-weapon on the market that carries all kinds of manufacturer's speed and performance claims, and envision it as an alternative to a gun, that now gives them access to bow season. I suppose after a few wounded deer they will learn for themselves that nothing is like a gun except a gun..

[WNYBuckHunter]

On 7/7/2017 at 10:16 PM, wolc123 said:

I am sure you did not mean that comment and you might just be having a bad day.  As a gun-hunter primarily, I forgive you of your transgression.

So you lobbing bullets and bolts at ranges you didnt practice doesnt count toward being a slob? I mean, you have posted quite a few times about doing just that.

 

Oh thats right, your faith in Jesus to guide your bullet or bolt to its intended target makes it non-slobish. Sorry, I forgot.