Muzzleloader ideas

[Swamp_bucks]

Wife said i could finally get a muzzleloader.  On a budget of about $250 looking at cva wolf or optima v2, traditions buck stalker , or TC impact .  Dont want one with a scope want to keep it a little more of a challenge and to possibly change out with wood stock in future. What do you suggest.  Anyone have issues with the ones i listed? Thanks for the imput.

[turkeyfeathers]

Pretty sure the Wolf gets a good nod from guys on here.

[sethf11]

I have the Traditions Buckstalker. It's an awesome little gun. MSRP is $220 but you can find it on Sportsmansguide for like $180. I only muzzleloader hunt 1 week or so a year in the Southern zone late season so it's perfect for me. That equals about 3 trips to the woods. Use the extra $70 in your budget to get the other things you need for it. That $180 is no scope. Put one on it next year and get a descent one for it.

I was between the Buckstalker and the Wolf. Both real good guns. Can't go wrong with either one.


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[Swamp_bucks]

Yea it wont be used much just trying to extend season or change it up a bit during regular season.

[sethf11]

Yea it wont be used much just trying to extend season or change it up a bit during regular season.

Late season in the snow with a muzzleloader is fun. Cold but fun. I love chasing the deer around and the opportunity to shoot a doe if the season hasn't been very good. Can't beat it. I love going when everyone else already threw the towel in and are at home watching tv. I was out in -10 degrees last year in mid December.


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[Buckmaster7600]

Own a wolf brother has an optima, owned a impact for about a week and had a traditions striker for a little while. Hated the impact just a terrible design. I will never own another traditions after having to deal with their customer service.

Cva wolf is very tough to beat for he money. My brother loves his optima but I think it's too heavy but it does shoot very good. My main muzzleloader is a CVA accura MR and it's the best one I have owned so far.


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[sbuff]

Up your budget if possible and buy a knight or a used White. They will both out live you and your grandkids kids .

[stoneam2006]

I carry my cva wolf konus scope package all of rifle season I like it so much. Great gun great price. 100 grain 777 250 grain shockwave shoots 150 easily

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[Robhuntandfish]

I have the TC impact.  I use 100 grains and a 245 lead in it.  Shoots dead on at 100 yards.  For one shot might be my most accurate gun.  Also easy to clean. Havent had any problems with it at all. 

[Daveboone]

I hate to disagree with the Wolf owners, but I found it to be....horrible. prone to rusting even when well maintained, sticky action, very cheaply put together. Having also owned Traditions and TC, I have to say TC has the best engineering/ quality, and was easiest to maintain. Go stainless if you can, being new to it, but treat it like it is blued. Stainless makes maintenance a bit easier, but does rust if given a chance.

[stubby68]

   I know I will catch a lot of cap for this ,but. I did alot of research before i got my first muzzy. I won't even stand next to someone shooting a cva. There are just to many horror stories of breeches blowing up and people getting injured. I know they have gotten better over the years but still do not trust them. There are no standards for production of muzzle loaders and cva , at least a a few years ago used very cheap metal in the production of there guns to lower cost andown be able to sell a low cost gun. This lead to breaches and barrels blowing up. I know it is long but this is just one case I copied as an example. They all have issued but I have never come across so many as I have the cva. I like my traditions and my thompson. Everyone has there own likes. Just for the record I hate knight as well. Just my 2 cents. And as I said I assume they have gotten better over the years.or at least I hope they have.

       

Firearms are generally as safe as you allow them to be. Modern metallurgy, modern manufacturing techniques, generally known and recognized principles of firearms design and manufacture developed and well-documented over the years have all played a role in today’s firearms being extremely safe to use as directed. However, there are a couple of tragic exceptions to this rule.

On December 8, 2008, I received an unsolicited e-mail from eye-witness Erik Zenger, which states in part:

"I am currently sitting in a courthouse in Des Moines, Iowa listening to the CVA attorneys trying to defend the safety of their guns . . . The most recent [lawsuit] was filed in federal court on November 10. Apparently the guy lost an eye and suffered brain damage. There needs to be national attention brought to this issue. How can we do this? Please let me know what we can do."

Further, on December 9, 2008, Erik Zenger reported:

“What I heard yesterday was this . . ..

1. One out of every 25 barrels was tested with a go - no go tool to see if the threads for the breach plug are the right size. That's a mere 4%.
2. Every gun that left the factory for the USA has a proof stamp on it, even though they have not been to the proof house. The Dikar guy said that they have no documentation from the proof house authorizing them to do this, he had just been told by "someone" at Dikar (he could not remember who it was) to just go ahead and put a proof mark on each barrel. If a Dikar barrel is to be sold in Europe (which they have not been for about four years) they ALL need to go through proof testing
3. Four barrels a month are sent to the proof house to be pressure tested. They fire the barrel with a load that is equal to twice that which is recommended. These are not randomly selected barrels, they just grab four consecutive out of a batch. That is four total for all the different barrels they make.”

It wasn’t all that long ago that issues with the Ford Pinto, Firestone Tires and space shuttle ‘O’ rings were resolved. Though not common, problems do occur that take not just months, but often many years to come to light. When egregious and obvious consumer safety issues reveal themselves, it is the responsibility of any journalist to bring those issues to the attention of the public. Though hardly a financially rewarding thing to do, in fact it often has the result of being an uncomfortable, perhaps perilous, career move. Nevertheless, defective firearms are bad for the industry, bad for the sport and bad for those cherish the Second Amendment. The big brown spot of recklessness and negligence that permeates one company can unfairly taint and stain an entire industry, an industry well known for transparency, candidness and honesty: our firearms industry.

The story begins not "once upon a time," but in the mid-1990’s. In an industry generally flat in sales, muzzleloading firearms experienced unprecedented growth, a trend that has continued for some twenty years. Once relegated to reenactments and those that find comfort and history in the smoke and the smell, the modern inline muzzleloading industry was born thanks to the efforts of pioneers like Tony Knight, Doc White and Del Ramsey. No longer impractical and unreliable, modern muzzleloading, although restricted to one fairly close range shot in the field, sprang to life. People loved it and still do. I do. The opening up of dedicated muzzleloading seasons gave this appealing new sport broad appeal. However, along with those that prospered honestly and fairly by their hard work came a foreign company with questionable scruples.

Most people today still don’t know the name of this company. The company is Spanish, its name is Dikar. Specifically, it is Dikar S. Coop. Still, that likely rings a bell with no one. More commonly known as “CVA Brand” muzzleloaders, Dikar was and is the manufacturer.

We might all have slightly different visions of quality control, but what do you think of an inline muzzleloading company that was forced to recall all inline muzzleloaders that it made for two consecutive years? It is a voluntary recall, but you will have great trouble naming any company in the world that recalled all similar items manufactured, not for a week or a month, but for two full years. Not even Firestone did that and I can think of no muzzleloading company that has ever done so, other than CVA with all inline muzzleloading rifles it sold during 1995-1996.

As it turns out, these CVA muzzleloaders would be considered illicit firearms in a significant portion of the modern world. To sell or possess one in England, Germany, Italy, France, Chile, or even the country where they are manufactured, Spain, would be illegal. Ditto in Finland, Belgium, Russia, Slovakia and Hungary. Most people should be curious as to why; the reason is consumer safety. The C.I.P. mandates that firearms be proofed, all firearms, specifically including muzzleloaders, before they can be sold to consumers. Not only must they be proofed, but they must be proofed by an accredited C.I.P. proofhouse. That is a matter of international law, a law intended to protect consumers from inadequately made firearms.

“But wait!” you might think. “I’ve seen (or perhaps owned) CVA brand muzzleloaders and they have an official proof mark stamped on them. Surely, they are proofed? They have got to be!”

The answer, as it turns out, is a true stunner. Yes, they are stamped with proof marks. However, none of them are so much as fired, not even with a standard load, much less the C.I.P. designated proof load, before they arrive in the United States, or before they are sold to the unknowing consumer. How and why could this be?

As it turns out, this is something that the United States does not look at. Muzzleloaders in the United States are “Gun Control Act of 1968 exempt” arms, meaning the BATFE does not control or enforce their sale like other firearms that require Form 4473. Nor is there any reason for the BATFE to get involved, as muzzleloaders are less likely to be used in crime than steak knives. Steak knives give you more “shots” and obviously are a heck of a lot easier to conceal.

What about U.S. standards? Well, in the United States, firearms standards have been administered by SAAMI, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute.

“The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute is a trade association of the nation’s leading manufacturers of sporting firearms and ammunition. Founded in 1926 at the request of the federal government, SAAMI has been actively involved in the publication of industry standards, coordination of technical data and the promotion of safe and responsible firearms use. SAAMI currently publishes more than 700 standards related to firearm and ammunition quality and safety.”

SAAMI is, as they define themselves, a trade association. SAAMI has done a very good job in promoting firearms safety. Firearms in the United States have fewer accidents every year. In the home, accidental firearm fatalities have been reduced by 50% between 1992 and 2002, from 1,000 to 500 annually. The National Safety Council ranks firearm accidents among the lowest of all causes of unintentional deaths. Again, as muzzleloaders are not Form 4473 arms, there are few to no unique muzzleloading standards from SAAMI.

That essentially covers the “how,” but what about the “why?” The why part is a very simple. Quality control costs money, quality materials cost money, proper testing costs money. Proofing firearms cost money. Sell a cheap product and advertise long enough, it gets accepted by some and profits accrue.

Their ads, claiming the “only real difference” a couple hundred dollars versus Thompson and Knight could not possibly be more fraudulent, more misleading, or more wrong. Some of us are ignorant and apathetic; some of us don’t know or don’t care.

Some readers may never have heard of Erik Zenger. Well, here is part of an e-mail he sent to me:

“As I mentioned before I was injured by the Prohunter version of CVA rifle that was included in the recall that CVA initiated in 1997. The recall covered all Prohunter rifles that had been manufactured in 1995 and 1996. I purchased my CVA rifle in 1999 at a local sporting good store. It was a rifle that had been a trade-in, but which was brand new and never shot. I was sighting in my rifle on November 4, 2001 with my brother. My brother had shot the gun seven times and handed it to me saying that his shoulder was getting sore and that it was my turn. It was my first shot that went terribly wrong. It was determined later by several specialists that two separate, but related, manufacturer defects ultimately resulted in not only my gun failing, but the many others that these specialists had investigated. These two defects were 1) the steel the barrels were made of was substandard and 2) the scope mounting holes were drilled too deep. This ultimately caused the barrel to split around the circumference at the point of these holes. In my gun's case, the part that blew out the back of the gun was actually the last 1.5 inches of the barrel (which included the breech plug), then of course the bolt mechanism, the spring and the plastic end cap at the back of the gun. I have the written reports about the defects from one of the specialists that I would be more than happy to forward to you.”

I can’t tell you exactly how many failures occurred with the 1990’s versions of CVA product. Certainly, CVA knows what has been reported to them, how often they have settled out of court like in the case of Erik Zenger. Checks all have numbers on them. However, CVA's Company policy is not to discuss legal matters.

CVA brand is now used by BPI, Blackpowder Products Inc., a Georgia corporation. Reportly, in 2003, all shares of stock of BPI were purchased by Dikar. Dikar, once the exclusive manufacturer for CVA brand, is clearly the parent company. They are the same manufacturer that perpetrated the old CVA mess.

In 2002, Thompson/Center Arms hit a home run with the introduction of its Omega, a simple, durable, sealed, drop-action muzzleloader. For several years after its introduction, T/C was above capacity and couldn’t fill all the orders. Dikar seized the opportunity for more sales. It wasn’t long before a copy of the Thompson Omega appeared under the CVA brand made by Dikar, the CVA Kodiak.

I was deposed earlier this year as an expert witness in the CVA Kodiak injury case of a Mr. Mark Kohn. The case settled, out of court, a very short while after my partial deposition of many hours. Most folks reading this have never heard of Mark Kohn. Dr. Block, Consulting Metallurgical Engineer, found that among other things, “The subject BPI / CVA Kodiak rifle was defective and unreasonably dangerous.” The scope mounting holes were drilled too deep.

(Although they settled the case out of court to avoid the legal expense of a defense, CVA authorities claim that this rifle failed because the shooter was using smokeless powder for which it was not designed. -Editor.)

These are names and lives adversely affected. Just because Erik Zenger was injured by a CVA inline, Jimmy Dial was injured by a CVA inline, Troy Cashdollar was injured by a CVA inline, Eliot Best was injured by a CVA inline, Mark Kohn was injured by a CVA inline and several others have been injured by CVA inlines does not automatically mean that all shooters will be.

From what I’ve seen, the injuries that have occured are needless. There is no question in my mind that all muzzleloaders made with extruded barrels should be removed from the marketplace and it can’t happen too soon. Your friends and neighbors are at risk, a very clear and present danger. (According to CEO Dudley McGarity, CVA muzzleloaders now use Bergara Barrels drilled from solid steel bar stock. -Editor.)

The CIP needs to step up and so does SAAMI. So do gunshops and retailers that care about the well-being of their customers. So do we all. We don’t create mismanufactured muzzleloaders, misrepresented muzzleloaders, or clearly hazardous muzzleloaders. We just identify them.

So, to Erik Zenger, yes, we can make a difference. An educated consumer makes all the difference in the world. According to the CIP, to put a proof-mark on a muzzleloader that has never been fired with a proof load--or any load--is totally unacceptable. I have personally examined CVA muzzleloaders with a variety of defects, including mismachined, bell-mouthed barrels apt to blow-out breechplugs.

Erik, what you have heard and reported should send lightning bolts of shocked disbelief through the spines of CVA owners. To put a proof mark on a barrel that has never been proofed, never so much has been fired, is a total misrepresentation of product. You’ve made the menace of the recalled 1995-1996 CVA inline muzzleloaders quite clear.

It isn’t plausible that properly proofed barrels regularly fail; that is what the international standards of proof are all about. Misrepresenting your product is not necessarily illegal. It is damnable, of course, but not necessarily illegal. One can only hope that the CIP, SAAMI, quality firearms manufacturers and the major retailers of this nation would step up to the plate to protect our sport, our industry and the well-being of innocent consumers.

It is more than a bit sinister that so many items in daily use are tested prior to sale: from condoms to fire hose to cheap propane tanks. Yet, a consumer-directed muzzleloader that needs to contain 25,000 PSI of hot gas just a few inches away from our faces is not fired at all prior to sale, much less properly-proof tested. Not even a representative sampling of them are tested. All this, despite a internationally recognized proof mark stamped on the barrel that represents that all of the barrels are proof-tested. It just adds injury to insult.

Erik, you’ve asked me, “Something has to be done. There needs to be national attention brought to this issue...how can we do this? Please let me know what we can do.” Yes, Eric, I understand; you might think it is a daunting task.

We can take a small measure of comfort in the First Amendment. It does not give us license to yell “Fire” in a crowded theater, that is, unless the theater really is on fire. Well, in my opinion, the CVA theater is a real barn-burner. We can also find solace that the truth is an absolute defense against libel. The truth may have come a bit too late to prevent injury to you, to Mark Kohn, to Troy Cashdollar, to Jimmy Dial, to Eliot Best, or to Mr. Tommy Delvis, who just sent me several photographs of his CVA Optima that blew up with, according to Tommy, 90 grains of Pyrodex RS powder behind a 300 grain saboted bullet.

We have all kinds of serious questions and issues. According to Marc Pirlot, director of the C.I.P, it is not permissible for a manufacturer to apply a proof mark to a firearm that has never been fired. Based on what you have heard and reported, Erik, that is exactly the case. So now what? (According to CVA's Dudley McGarity, Dikar ceased stamping fraudulent proof marks on their barrels sometime in 2006. -Editor)

The C.I.P. apparently failed to control Dikar / CVA proofing, and has no mechanism in place to enforce it. Nor has the C.I.P warned consumers. CVA, based on your report, has failed to warn anyone about the complete misrepresentation of the proof marks they applied to their guns. I’m not aware of CVA informing consumers that proof marks were applied to unproofed guns, are you?

This also casts a rather chilling shadow both on the C.I.P.’s ability to enforce and implement its own standards and the veracity of the Spanish House of Eibar Proof itself. How could the House of Eibar be blind to the use of their proof marks in their own country? Erik, you’ve heard that out of all the firearms CVA makes, just “four barrels a month” are sent to the proof house. I’m wondering for what purpose. It is mystifying that apparently the House of Eibar proof facility and the CIP are not equally mystified at what purpose four barrels a month could possibly serve? It certainly has the appearance of impropriety.

As you might know, Erik, I live in Illinois. Our last governor, George Ryan, is now in Federal Prison. Our current governor, Milorad R. Blagojevich, is someone you can’t avoid hearing about as I write these words. On December 9, 2008, Blagojevich was arrested by FBI agents and charged with conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud and with solicitation of bribery. The Justice Dept. complaint alleges that the governor conspired to commit several pay-to-play schemes, including attempting to sell President-elect Barack Obama’s vacated US Senate seat to the highest bidder. One can argue that that the Spanish system of government is somehow immune from the issues that have recently and currently plagued Illinois, but I’m not buying it. It would be naïve to assume so.

We have done our job, Erik, as best we can. As journalists and writers, we cab forthrightly report on what we have witnessed. We can further express our opinions, concerns and the reasons for them. That’s what we have done here. We can ask the tough questions, and we can demand answers. We can expect the major players in our industry to wake up, get involved and do what is reasonable to protect the innocent consumer. That is what is being asked here.

Now, it is up the CIP, SAAMI / ANSI, the CPSC, the firearms industry and the sporting goods distributors and retailers around the United States to do their respective jobs. It looks like there is a lot of cleaning up to do.

---

CVA VOLUNTARY RECALL NOTICE:

In August 1997 CVA implemented a Voluntary Recall of In-Line rifle models with serial numbers ending in -95 and -96. If you have a CVA In-Line model with such a serial number, DO NOT USE OR ALLOW ANYONE ELSE TO USE THE GUN. If you have one of these rifles, please call CVA immediately at 770-449-4687 for complete details and a free replacement gun. Example serial numbers: 61-13-XXXXXX-95 or 61-13-XXXXXX-96.

In May 1999 Blackpowder Products, Inc. purchased the assets of Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc. and now operates under the trade name of Connecticut Valley Arms and/or CVA. Any claims relating to the above described Voluntary Recall should be addressed to Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc., not Blackpowder Products, Inc. Blackpowder Products, Inc. assumes no liability for any products manufactured prior to January 1, 1998.

[stubby68]

Just a thought on powder.  I know some guys like to use more then 100 grains of powder in there gune. Some guns even say they are made to be used with greater amounts. But if you do some research with hogdens. A big producer of powder the manufactures of said powder say not to use more then 100 grains. Even if you gun says you can. Hogdens magnum loads use to come 20th a paper that stated not to use more then 100 grains. There magnum loads are only 50 grains per pellit. The only reason they are taller is because of other chemicals added to make them burn faster.

         This comes from the guys who make the powder and know the power of there product.  Keep this in mind when buying gun and do not let the statement that it can handle more then 100 grains influence your purchase. 

[Swamp_bucks]

Thanks for the input.  I'm going with the wolf 24inch blued barrel with the fiber optic sights. And hopefully before season starts i can get the walnut stock for it for another 150ish but that may have to wait. As much as ide like to go higher end it will have to wait.  But i also dont want to get to into and have it sit there so i went with this gun.  Plus my buddies all have it and never had issues.

 

Thanks again for input.

[Adkhunter1590]

CVA makes great muzzle loaders. They had some barrel issues some years back but that's all been fixed and shouldn't deter anyone thinking of buying one. Bergera now makes all of CVAs barrels. Bergera is a huge barrel company that makes high quality stuff, your not going to have any problems with the new stuff. I'm pretty dang sure that almost all of the CVA barrel blow ups stemmed from operator error. CVA used to make different model guns that were labeled as "magnum" and others weren't labeled as such. The magnums were rated to handle charges up to 150grain while the non magnums were only rated to 100. From the stories I've read, seems to be a lot of guys dropped 3 pellets in non magnum guns and then complained when the barrel blew. So in short, operator error. But CVA corrected the problem and sourced a new barrel maker that now gives their guns awesome accuracy and great reliability.

I've shot all sorts of muzzle loaders but I love my cheap CVA wolf. I have tight groups out to 150 and wouldn't hesitate on a 200 yard shot if I had to. Put a quality scope on it and you have yourself a deadly little gun. Plus I like the wolfs short overall length as it makes it a great carrying gun on those long walks.

I'd say hold off on the stock and upgrade your optics and you'll be even happier in the long run. Either way good luck and have fun with your new muzzy this year!

[Buckmaster7600]

CVA makes great muzzle loaders. They had some barrel issues some years back but that's all been fixed and shouldn't deter anyone thinking of buying one. Bergera now makes all of CVAs barrels. Bergera is a huge barrel company that makes high quality stuff, your not going to have any problems with the new stuff. I'm pretty dang sure that almost all of the CVA barrel blow ups stemmed from operator error. CVA used to make different model guns that were labeled as "magnum" and others weren't labeled as such. The magnums were rated to handle charges up to 150grain while the non magnums were only rated to 100. From the stories I've read, seems to be a lot of guys dropped 3 pellets in non magnum guns and then complained when the barrel blew. So in short, operator error. But CVA corrected the problem and sourced a new barrel maker that now gives their guns awesome accuracy and great reliability.

I've shot all sorts of muzzle loaders but I love my cheap CVA wolf. I have tight groups out to 150 and wouldn't hesitate on a 200 yard shot if I had to. Put a quality scope on it and you have yourself a deadly little gun. Plus I like the wolfs short overall length as it makes it a great carrying gun on those long walks.

I'd say hold off on the stock and upgrade your optics and you'll be even happier in the long run. Either way good luck and have fun with your new muzzy this year!

Do you have any proof that all cva barrels are bergera?

Looking online some say bergera and some don't. My accura says it on the barrel but my wolf and hunters don't.


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[stubby68]

Doesn't matter who makes the barrle. The supplier makes them to the standards of the customer. If the customer request a lower standard that is what they get. No regs on the the standards of muzz loaders let them request the barrels be made to lower standards then other companies wanted thus allowing for lower manufacture cost and lower cost to customer. Many other companies have barrels made at same factories yet never had the problems because they had higher standerds. As for over loading powder in gun. It was proven many times that fault was with the weaker barrle not the user. 

[Adkhunter1590]

Do you have any proof that all cva barrels are bergera?

Looking online some say bergera and some don't. My accura says it on the barrel but my wolf and hunters don't.


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I'll have to find the written stuff I found last year before buying my CVA but yes all CVA barrels are made by bergera. The only difference in the ones that are stamped as bergera is that they go through an extra finishing process. Other than that they are all made in the same place by the same people. The wolf is the only one that won't have it stamped on there. I'll see if I can find it again but I know it to be true, there's some muzzy pros on a muzzy forum that can tell you the same thing.

[Adkhunter1590]

Doesn't matter who makes the barrle. The supplier makes them to the standards of the customer. If the customer request a lower standard that is what they get. No regs on the the standards of muzz loaders let them request the barrels be made to lower standards then other companies wanted thus allowing for lower manufacture cost and lower cost to customer. Many other companies have barrels made at same factories yet never had the problems because they had higher standerds. As for over loading powder in gun. It was proven many times that fault was with the weaker barrle not the user. 

I think you must feel CVA peed in your cheerios and got away with it or something. They had a problem and fixed it end of story. Remington is in the process of being sued by millions of people over faulty safety's on model 700s. Remington is one of the oldest gun manufacturers in the world millions would argue they are a testament of reliability and safety. Yet they had issues, which they even have tried to cover up and ignore. So if we all shared your mentality, we should all shun Remington now too?

[Buckmaster7600]

Doesn't matter who makes the barrle. The supplier makes them to the standards of the customer. If the customer request a lower standard that is what they get. No regs on the the standards of muzz loaders let them request the barrels be made to lower standards then other companies wanted thus allowing for lower manufacture cost and lower cost to customer. Many other companies have barrels made at same factories yet never had the problems because they had higher standerds. As for over loading powder in gun. It was proven many times that fault was with the weaker barrle not the user. 

Well if you never own a product from a company who has had a recall or any other bad products you probably don't own much.

I currently have 7 or 8 modern inline muzzleloaders in my closet and have owned probably 25 in he last 10 years from about every company other than the custom guys. I probably shoot my muzzleloaders more in a week than 99% of owners shoot theirs in a year. In my personal experience I put CVA's quality, function and customer support at the top of the heap. My Accura MR is by far the best muzzleloader I have owned and it's far from the most expensive. After probably 500 shots it still looks and functions like brand new.

If cva had 100 barrels blow up they all could have been produced within 5 minutes of production. It's hard to hold a grudge with a company over making 5 minutes worth of bad products if they fix their problem.

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[TACC]

I agree from my research, since trying to get one also, that the Acura mountain rifle has it as well, bot not all CVA'S have them. The mountain is the one I am looking at

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[Grizz1219]

Not sure if it has been posted on here, but find a Used T/C Omega, most accurate BP out there...check the barrel and if clean.. buy it.. 

[stubby68]

It is far more then 100 barrles. They recalled 2 full years of guns. Not every gun style made but still 2 years worth of guns. Recalls are a part of owning things, as you point out. How ever do a search on the cva  menace, or just do a search on how safe they are. There are many many cases you will find about there safty. Far to many to ignore. 

          CVA  has never done anything to me. My feelings come from the research I have done. I'm glad you can say youhave never had a problem with yours. What I would like to point out is that in every case against them the victim also said they had never had any problems with the cva guns they owned. Until that one time. If it was just a one or two time thing I could chalk it up to a small problem but when it happens as many times as it has, I see a problem I will avoid. Yes they took responsibility for the problem and the company is under new ownership. That does not mean I will ever trust those guns. I have friends who own cva muzzle loaders, love them and as of this point never had a problem with them. However knowing the history of problems with these guns, I make sure I am not around them when they fire that gun.

              As for Remington I do not care for them either. Never have. I do own a couple but rarely use them because as I said I do not like them much. We all have different tastes and that is fine. With the history of those guns I prefer not to own one or be around it when it is fired. I was just letting him know what I found when I was doing research for the purchase of my gun.

[sbuff]

Buy a White hard to find anything bad about them. 

As stated they all have faults TC,CVA,KNIGHT,SAVAGE REMINGTON,TRADITIONS. Its Ford vs Chevy, Pick a brand, shoot some BP and be happy. Muzzle loaders are a  blast, enjoy them but be safe.

[Buckmaster7600]

I agree from my research, since trying to get one also, that the Acura mountain rifle has it as well, bot not all CVA'S have them. The mountain is the one I am looking at

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I own one and it's the best muzzleloader I have ever owned and I have owned a pile of them.


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[dbHunterNY]

i've compared CVA wolf and optima ml with my TC Prohunter and it's night and day difference.  My TC is just made better.  that said there's probably less of a difference with the premium barreled CVA Apex and Accura's.  Also do i think an Optima that i bought was a 1/3 the gun of the TC is when looking at price difference?  Nope.  You get what you pay for but CVA makes a great gun for the $.