Interesting what DEC says about bucks

[Buckmaster7600]

I can understand this somewhat. But, if you work in a factory or have a job with shift work, you would have guys fighting for vacation time, as the company isn't shutting down so employees can hunt.I changed the way I hunt last year. If I have a doe in the freezer, I wouldn't kill any buck less then a 6pt. If not, and a decent 4pt gives me a shot in range, he's not getting a pass. But no spikes, and I would never kill a button buck just to have meat.
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But if they shortened gun season there would be a longer bow season. I work in a mill and we fight over vacation time now if you don't have 30years on the job you aren't getting a vacation day during SZ gun season now.


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[DirtTime]

But if they shortened gun season there would be a longer bow season. I work in a mill and we fight over vacation time now if you don't have 30years on the job you aren't getting a vacation day during SZ gun season now.


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But....But....Some don't like how long the bow season is now. How would that resolve anything.
LOL

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[Buckmaster7600]

But....But....Some don't like how long the bow season is now. How would that resolve anything.
LOL

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Lol

The problem is there is no way to make everyone happy. NY cares about money and the guy that hunts opening weekend on public land probably doesn't spend 100$ in a year on hunting. Many Landowners/leasers spend 10+X that in year on hunting. As soon as NY figures this out they will start catering it. The guy who hunts public land a few times a year is becoming a minority I don't know if this is good or bad and I'm not saying I'm in favor of it but it's on it's way wether we want it or not, especially if the state thinks they can make more money if NY became a "buck state."


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[DirtTime]

2 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Lol

The problem is there is no way to make everyone happy. NY cares about money and the guy that hunts opening weekend on public land probably doesn't spend 100$ in a year on hunting. Many Landowners/leasers spend 10+X that in year on hunting. As soon as NY figures this out they will start catering it. The guy who hunts public land a few times a year is becoming a minority I don't know if this is good or bad and I'm not saying I'm in favor of it but it's on it's way wether we want it or not, especially if the state thinks they can make more money if NY became a "buck state."


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DING-DING-DING on the first sentence.

 

Agree about the deer only hunters who drop the whopping $22 ( maybe $32 with DMP's ).

 

The last part, not sure about that. I can see NYS trying to pull that off for a season or two. Buck only min-6 pnts on one side........ After a season or two, the does would be so over populated they would be giving DPM's away by the truck load. JMO. But looking at the way does are managed I can see it.

As you said, no pleasing everyone.

 

[Buckmaster7600]

DING-DING-DING on the first sentence.
 
Agree about the deer only hunters who drop the whopping $22 ( maybe $32 with DMP's ).
 
The last part, not sure about that. I can see NYS trying to pull that off for a season or two. Buck only min-6 pnts on one side........ After a season or two, the does would be so over populated they would be giving DPM's away by the truck load. JMO. But looking at the way does are managed I can see it.
As you said, no pleasing everyone.
 

No idea what your talking about on being over run with does?


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[DirtTime]

36 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

No idea what your talking about on being over run with does?


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OK. I will try to explain. When I read the term "Buck State", I think of states like MN ( just as an example ) where you can't kill a female of the species, and has antler restrictions for the males. So, the thought that springs to mind for me is, if NY became a "buck state", you could only shoot male whitetails, and no spikes or button bucks. So, without keeping the female numbers in check, they could get over populated, and some areas where there is already a dense population of does, especially urban areas, there could be issues. I don't recall saying "over-run". I said "Over Populated". Not the exact same thing. 

[Buckmaster7600]

OK. I will try to explain. When I read the term "Buck State", I think of states like MN ( just as an example ) where you can't kill a female of the species, and has antler restrictions for the males. So, the thought that springs to mind for me is, if NY became a "buck state", you could only shoot male whitetails, and no spikes or button bucks. So, without keeping the female numbers in check, they could get over populated, and some areas where there is already a dense population of does, especially urban areas, there could be issues. I don't recall saying "over-run". I said "Over Populated". Not the exact same thing. 

Oh my bad, when I wrote buck state I was referring to a state people would travel to hunt because of the bucks being killed, like many of the Midwest states that have short gun seasons.


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[grampy]

4 hours ago, ....rob said:

 

I changed the way I hunt last year. If I have a doe in the freezer, I wouldn't kill any buck less then a 6pt. If not, and a decent 4pt gives me a shot in range, he's not getting a pass. But no spikes, and I would never kill a button buck just to have meat.

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Whats the difference.  A six, four, or spike are all usually only a year old. A couple two inch pieces of antler, will not add meat to the pot. 

[dbHunterNY]

Whats the difference.  A six, four, or spike are all usually only a year old. A couple two inch pieces of antler, will not add meat to the pot. 

I was going to comment on that but didn't. For all I know he just likes a 6 versus a spike and age wasn't really a concern. To me it doesn't make a difference a yearling is a yearling from a biology stand point. Hard to say the 6 or spike would be any bigger than the other. whatever kind of start it had in life has a lot to do with what it sports early before it's had a chance to grow a little.

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[growalot]

Actually if he lives in an area where there is a significant # of spikes then chances are a 4 or 6 would likely be at least a 21/2 . There could be a body size difference.

NOT a mature buck but not a yearling either.

Edited September 23, 2017 by growalot

[BizCT]

Actually if he lives in an area where there is a significant # of spikes then chances are a 4 or 6 would likely be at least a 21/2 . There could be a body size difference.
NOT a mature buck but not a yearling either.

That’s right. Many 4-6pts they are 2.5’s in my area.




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[wolc123]

Everyone has standards that are a little different.  That is fine with me.   I see nothing wrong with folks changing their standards, depending on how much meat they have in the freezer and how much season remains.  I know I certainly do it, and Rob said he does.  I really don't know why folks think they need to condemn other folks for having standards that differ from their own.   Why not embrace all of them ?   I am about as far from a trophy hunter as one could get, but I appreciate the trophy hunters and all the deer they pass.  Those small-antlered and young bucks that they pass may very well end up being what keeps my family fed through a tough winter.   I also appreciate the brown-down guys, who always shoot the first legal deer they can.  The big one that might have showed up right behind it might run my way and provided me with some bonus meat, as well as a cool wall decoration.  Its all good, just enjoy the hunt.

There is only one valid reason that I would support forcing "higher standards" on all hunters through mandatory antler restrictions.  That would be if it could be shown, using data from other states that have them (ie PA), that these AR's result in less hunting accidents.  It makes sense to me that it might, by slowing hunters down and causing them to identify the target better before pulling the trigger.  I would definitely NOT make an exception for young or first-time hunters.   If real data does not support that theory then there should be no mandatory AR's.   If AR's ever do spread though NY state, I hope it is a 3-point per side restriction, which would not impact my personal standards at all.  Like Rob, I also don't often settle for less than 6 points.  I don't mind using my DMP tags on button bucks however, as long as there is not a larger doe available first to use it on.     

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Ny still own;s the title as the..Worst place in the country to hunt Whitetails.... Until DEC starts making good moves that actually help something then that title will be stamped forever.

[Doc]

38 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Ny still own;s the title as the..Worst place in the country to hunt Whitetails.... Until DEC starts making good moves that actually help something then that title will be stamped forever.

I guess that depends on who you ask and their level of experience hunting other states. It also depends on what standards you use to judge the quality of the deer hunt. I guess if you are looking for a trophy deer behind every tree, NYS may not be the best state to hunt deer. But it sure isn't the worst. Frankly, I have a ball deer hunting here in NYS and enjoy every minute of it.

[wolc123]

I have never hunted whitetails outside of NY state, only mule deer, and those things taste bad so I would never do that again.   As a meat hunter, it is hard for me to imagine deer hunting much better than we have right now in NY.   The DEC has done an excellent job overall.  A couple little tweaks that I would like to see to current regs would be full inclusion of the crossbow and a 3-point on a side minimum antler restriction, if it could be shown that it makes the sport safer for hunters.       

[G-Man]

On 9/21/2017 at 0:48 PM, NFA-ADK said:

The other issue is not all hunters are after big bucks.  Many just want some venison for the table and any deer will do so the first yearling 4 pt that walks in gets shot, hard to get larger buck in your area when most of the hunters shoot anything in range.  While many of the trophy hunters keep passing these deer the other hunters are shooting them 5 minutes later.  The past 2 years one of the hunters with me shoot 2 bucks in the 2.5 125 inch class then realized he could have shot 2 others in the 135-145 class range of 3 year old deer.  

Not easy to pass when you get a group of 7 bucks parading by your stand but none where over 2.  I have only seen 2 deer in the age class I want and they where wise enough to evade me so far.  Hope this is the year I can get a 3+ year old to pass in range!

Just make your habitat buck friendly set aside 5 acres and hinge cut it or clear cut it leave the tops then stay out of it.. All those big bucks find little spots like that band hide..my neighbor my property goes around doesnt hunt and the deer know it a tiny couple of acre spot is all it is and bucks lay next to her pool all day..you could lay a gun over the hood of her car and get a trophy every year.. Its pressure ..pure and simple.. I have a lot of friends in Ohio that hunt and my camp always takes bigger bucks then they do..one even started hunting here with me and he is astounded by the deer we have.. Stop looking at the tv and magazines that showcase. The top 20 bucks taken in 3 States every year( 10 different magazines all show the same bucks) and talk to actual hunters ..nys is not that bad off ..

[G-Man]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

I guess that depends on who you ask and their level of experience hunting other states. It also depends on what standards you use to judge the quality of the deer hunt. I guess if you are looking for a trophy deer behind every tree, NYS may not be the best state to hunt deer. But it sure isn't the worst. Frankly, I have a ball deer hunting here in NYS and enjoy every minute of it.

Well said ..we are worst for Hunter density and for cold weather..some wimps can't handle it and then cry when a tornado or hurricane destroys their homes or hunting area.. My friends in Ohio and buddy in Iowa love ny deer hunting!

[G-Man]

4 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Ny still own;s the title as the..Worst place in the country to hunt Whitetails.... Until DEC starts making good moves that actually help something then that title will be stamped forever.

And we will be the best kept secret..!

[G-Man]

9 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

I was going to comment on that but didn't. For all I know he just likes a 6 versus a spike and age wasn't really a concern. To me it doesn't make a difference a yearling is a yearling from a biology stand point. Hard to say the 6 or spike would be any bigger than the other. whatever kind of start it had in life has a lot to do with what it sports early before it's had a chance to grow a little.

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So your better off highgrading the herd by killing the numerous 8pt and 10 pt yearnings .. Is personally pas the basket 8 and 10s and will take a smaller buck.. A 4 pt may.and I repeat may become a 10 in 2 or 3 years.. But an 8 or 10 is already an 8 or 10 and may grow larger.. Shoot age class not antler points for proper management...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And we will be the best kept secret..!

Nah I think the Deer world knows we don't carry real trophy Deer in any numbers, are either over ran with Deer in one area with sex ratios and Deer numbers ruining hunting or other areas with a couple deer per square mile or that the weather many years can screw ya up. But I agree. We have a great state for hunters just looking to kill just any deer. Which most are young or baby Deer.


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[growalot]

Watch what you ask for...Personally I don't want to see caravans of out of state campers coming through,the farmers taking out summer crops and putting in winter hunting acres.

This said having just seen that happen this year and not far away...crops planted for leased hunting club...this year WW AND turnips went into a bean field,the club's gotten big, my Dr. is a member so I know. 

Do you public land guys REALLY want an army of out fitters/guides scouting public hunting for out of state guys? Lease prices doubling? Open l a nd prices going up.. we have a huge operation surround c as no..trying to force sales...

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by growalot

[wildcat junkie]

On 9/19/2017 at 1:51 PM, chas0218 said:

 I'm sorry but the deer in NY are just like deer in the the big buck states. All the big buck states have scrub bucks no different than NY it's all about how it's managed I feel like this is a big cop out saying this. 

Here is the link: http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/27663.html

While management has an effect on antler size, soil composition also has a huge influence too. The Southern Indiana limestone area has, on average, much larger racks than the Knobstone Karst regions that are predominately shale. Agriculture also has is a factor as better nutrition and the addition of phosphorous to the soil in farming practices equals bigger racks. 8 and 9-point racks are not incommen on 1 1/2 year old bucks in the south central area of Indiana which has both high calcium content on the soil and lots of corn/soy bean crops.

 

This is a 1 1/2 YO buck that I took in 1990 from a F&W area on the N/E corner of the South central Indiana limestone region. I shot him in a river bottom just off the edge of some large soybean fields. He was aged and weighed at the F&W check station. He dressed 142#. This size rack on a yearling buck is not highly unusual in that area.

 

Go deep into the Knobststone Karst region away from any agricultural activity and a rack of that size would mist likely be closer to 3 1/2 YO. Yearlings will be spike/crotch horns and dress around 90#.

[dbHunterNY]

So your better off highgrading the herd by killing the numerous 8pt and 10 pt yearnings .. Is personally pas the basket 8 and 10s and will take a smaller buck.. A 4 pt may.and I repeat may become a 10 in 2 or 3 years.. But an 8 or 10 is already an 8 or 10 and may grow larger.. Shoot age class not antler points for proper management...

That's my point that age class is the way to go. Too many unknown variables can affect antlers as a yearling or even a 2.5 year old. Shooting a yearling spike is just the same as a 6. A yearling died. High grading is a real thing I admit. All hunters inevitably have a tendency to high grade though. You shooting a spike versus a 6 pointer very well might be killing more potential. I believe one study was done and bucks starting out as spikes actually happened to grow bigger later on then the basket racked yearlings. It shows judging potential that early is a shot in the dark. Even have seen it where I hunt with voluntary antler restrictions. We protect almost all the yearlings there and then you really can see what has potential. Even then it's hard to know what they top out at until they reach 4.5+ with a normal set of antlers. We just go by age and don't worry about what it grows. If it's old enough it'll be a gnarly buck.

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[dbHunterNY]

Actually if he lives in an area where there is a significant # of spikes then chances are a 4 or 6 would likely be at least a 21/2 . There could be a body size difference.
NOT a mature buck but not a yearling either.

Could be possible but as you know you shouldnt use points over body to judge if its 1.5 versus older. Size could be a little different yea. Still should have a good idea though.

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[growalot]

I'll give you that...just pointing out a button is a button the year it's born...if he's a spike the next season then he's a 1 1/2 old spike after that..Well genetics and habitat will dictate  whatever happens after that, butcan't change him being a 2 1/2 yr. old...If nothing else the pictures I have seen here and on my own cams will tell you there are a good number of 2 1/2 +, 4's-6's's out there. Just like there are plenty of basket 1 1/2 yr. old 4-6's and yes body is what tells that story.

My problem with the DEC info is they are putting 2 1/2 yr olds in the adult group and you go to a good many DNRs in other states.which guys here love comparing...they will say 3 1/2 are the young deer.I honestly think they are underestimating the hunting population and "dumbing " down their efforts ...TEACH body size and features..and as I said tooth aging is great...but they have to be dead to age them like that.... OOpppss... hey good info but....doesn't help that season.

Edited September 23, 2017 by growalot