Do You Support Crossbow Full Inclusion into the NY Archery Season?

[WNYBuckHunter]

7 hours ago, chas0218 said:

The ones presented earlier in this thread or another by myself and others. One fact that they are closer to a gun than a vertical bow. you load it sit and wait shoulder click the safety and pull the trigger. Only argument people make is that it uses limbs and a string, everything else are parts found in a gun. Even terms associated with a crossbow are ones used when referencing firearms. It may not be a firearm but certainly isn't a bow. It is in fact its own entity and as fitting in its own season. To include it as a vertical or an even further stretch traditional bow is asinine.

I didn’t read one single fact in this post. It was all opinion  

I will give you the FACT that 2 parts of a crossbow can be used with a gun but not a bow. A stock and a safety. That’s it though. Every single other part can either only be used on a crossbow, or is commonly used or can be used on a vertical bow. In fact, they have a riser, limbs, limb pockets, cables, a string, cams, a quiver,  and arrows. Those parts cannot be used on a gun. That means they share 4 times as many pieces with a bow than they share with guns. The FACT of the matter is, they are far more closely related to bows than guns. No one is saying that they are vertical bows, they aren’t. They are traditional though. Wyoming has allowed them since their Game and Fish department was created in the early 1900s. Hunters were using them before that as well, but it’s just the first appearance of a formal law allowing them in the US. I’d call that pretty traditional. Modern crossbow design has been happening just about as long as compound bow design has. 

Those, my man, are facts. Anyone that chooses to dispute them is doing the same thing as people who believe the earth is flat. 

[Five Seasons]

15 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

I didn’t read one single fact in this post. It was all opinion  

I will give you the FACT that 2 parts of a crossbow can be used with a gun but not a bow. A stock and a safety. That’s it though. Every single other part can either only be used on a crossbow, or is commonly used or can be used on a vertical bow. In fact, they have a riser, limbs, limb pockets, cables, a string, cams, a quiver,  and arrows. Those parts cannot be used on a gun. That means they share 4 times as many pieces with a bow than they share with guns. The FACT of the matter is, they are far more closely related to bows than guns. No one is saying that they are vertical bows, they aren’t. They are traditional though. Wyoming has allowed them since their Game and Fish department was created in the early 1900s. Hunters were using them before that as well, but it’s just the first appearance of a formal law allowing them in the US. I’d call that pretty traditional. Modern crossbow design has been happening just about as long as compound bow design has. 

Those, my man, are facts. Anyone that chooses to dispute them is doing the same thing as people who believe the earth is flat. 

for arguments sake, the whole scope, bipod, stock and trigger thing has been beaten to death. I still maintain the loaded potential energy without the need to draw is the game changer for the crossbow. If you've bowhunted long enough you've been busted on a draw. 

slightly adding to that point is that on short notice and target acquisition the crossbow acts more like a gun then a bow. I raise, place crosshairs on target and squeeze. If I miss it's because i flinched, jerked etc. Very similar to a gun. 

With the compound, I not only have to acquire a target but align my peep after drawing. 

and before you say it, the likelihood of being busted for movement while raising the crossbow is no different than that of raising a gun and being busted. 

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, Belo said:

for arguments sake, the whole scope, bipod, stock and trigger thing has been beaten to death. I still maintain the loaded potential energy without the need to draw is the game changer for the crossbow. If you've bowhunted long enough you've been busted on a draw. 

slightly adding to that point is that on short notice and target acquisition the crossbow acts more like a gun then a bow. I raise, place crosshairs on target and squeeze. If I miss it's because i flinched, jerked etc. Very similar to a gun. 

With the compound, I not only have to acquire a target but align my peep after drawing. 

and before you say it, the likelihood of being busted for movement while raising the crossbow is no different than that of raising a gun and being busted. 

 

You can put a scope and bipod on a vertical bow (neither are necessary for a crossbow), and most use a mechanical release with a trigger on their compounds. So yeah, stock and safety are the only gun specific items on a crossbow.

Listen, I got busted by the buck I shot on Saturday trying to get my crossbow off the hook, I also got lucky the farmer at the road made a loud noise by chance and took the bucks attention off of me. Thats the only reason he ended up with my tag on him. Let me tell you, getting the crossbow off the hook is harder than my vertical bow, and getting it on target is not as easy as you seem to think it is. The scope is actually a bit of a hindrance at 20 yards, as it took longer to get the deer in the scope than it does to get my vertical bow sight on it. I also had to double check that my limbs were not going to smack the tree next to me (stand is in a clump tree), and had I not leaned back a bit, it would have. Sorry, but there simply was more movement involved than with my compound.

Laying the crossbow on my lap the whole time? No freaking way, its too bulky and awkward.

[grampy]

SHOOTING the crossbow, is for sure less movement than a vertical bow.  HUNTING with a crossbow is MUCH more movement, than a vertical bow. As it sits in your lap, the limbs flop side to side on the forend with the slightest nudge. Crossbow is also much heavier, and almost clunky to carry and handle. It seems to catch every limb and vine, on the way into the stand. And with the wider profile, deer pick off the crossbow, much more so than the slim vertical profile of a bow. You still need to be accurate with yardage assessment too. So for all who say how easy a crossbow is. Try one yourself, while HUNTING. You will come to realize it is not some super easy killing machine! It's just another hunting tool with advantages and disadvantages, like any other hunting tool.

[Doc]

See the gun next to the stool? That could just as easily be a crossbow with bench rests all around. Hell, lay it up there on some sandbags if you really want the hot set-up ..... lol. This is an excellent reliable gun stand and likely could double as an excellent crossbow stand that provides some pretty good 15 yard broadside shots to the trail. Just lay it up there just like I do my gun. Sight down the scope, just like I do my gun. Take your time and wait for the shot to develop, as long as it takes for the deer to fiddle around and finally get where I want him, just like I do with my gun. Slowly increase the pressure on the trigger, waiting for that "surprise triggering" just like I do with my gun.

Unfortunately, I can't do any of that with a vertical bow. There is a finite amount of time that I can hold that thing back. And of course there is no way of obtaining the "bench rest" with a vertical bow.

I often wonder why people have fought so hard to stuff crossbows into bow season and then turn around and do nothing but whine about how heavy and awkward they are. My gosh, just simply use all the similarities to guns to your benefit. Take advantage of the similarities instead of fighting them. As long as you have a range finder and a properly constructed and located stand, there is no excess weight or awkwardness and no wiggling while you are sighting and trying to get the deer within chip-shot range.

By the way, speaking od carrying awkwardness, I remember seeing that poaching-crook, Busbice hauling his x-bow with some kind of sling that put the thing against his back so the limbs were protected with his shoulders. Looked like a pretty slick way to transport the thing to the stand-site. Probably not the best way to still-hunt or drive deer if that's what you want to do. But in a properly planned and executed stand-hunt it sure would be a great way to carry the thing to your stand.

[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

You can put a scope and bipod on a vertical bow (neither are necessary for a crossbow), and most use a mechanical release with a trigger on their compounds. So yeah, stock and safety are the only gun specific items on a crossbow.

Listen, I got busted by the buck I shot on Saturday trying to get my crossbow off the hook, I also got lucky the farmer at the road made a loud noise by chance and took the bucks attention off of me. Thats the only reason he ended up with my tag on him. Let me tell you, getting the crossbow off the hook is harder than my vertical bow, and getting it on target is not as easy as you seem to think it is. The scope is actually a bit of a hindrance at 20 yards, as it took longer to get the deer in the scope than it does to get my vertical bow sight on it. I also had to double check that my limbs were not going to smack the tree next to me (stand is in a clump tree), and had I not leaned back a bit, it would have. Sorry, but there simply was more movement involved than with my compound.

Laying the crossbow on my lap the whole time? No freaking way, its too bulky and awkward.

To your first paragraph, i told you i'm not arguing that anymore, however I don't know anyone who uses a magnified scope or bipod on their compound.

And yes pulling one off the hanger sounds like a pain, but it also sounds like maybe that particular setup (as someone else mentioned too) is not great for a crossbow. However, there are plenty of setups including some of the treeforts, ground blinds and ladder stands some members use that wouldn't make any of those issues you mentioned a problem. As far as scope up close? that too sounds like an equipment setup issue or better yet, a compromise that us gun hunters also make so that we can poke out a little further. Heck i have a 3.5-10 on my rifle. that's not good at 20 yards lol.

[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, grampy said:

 Try one yourself, while HUNTING. You will come to realize it is not some super easy killing machine! It's just another hunting tool with advantages and disadvantages, like any other hunting tool.

i'd like to clarify that i don't think it's super easy. Just easier. Agree or no? And if you don't have a disability, why use a crossbow at all?

[Buckmaster7600]

i'd like to clarify that i don't think it's super easy. Just easier. Agree or no? And if you don't have a disability, why use a crossbow at all?

As I have mentioned before I think I have the most experience with an Xbow on the forum and although I will admit that there is a learning curve and you have to be willing to adapt and know that it is not a vertical bow or a gun an Xbow is exponentially easier to kill deer with with once you learn what you have to do.


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

See the gun next to the stool? That could just as easily be a crossbow with bench rests all around. Hell, lay it up there on some sandbags if you really want the hot set-up ..... lol. This is an excellent reliable gun stand and likely could double as an excellent crossbow stand that provides some pretty good 15 yard broadside shots to the trail. Just lay it up there just like I do my gun. Sight down the scope, just like I do my gun. Take your time and wait for the shot to develop, as long as it takes for the deer to fiddle around and finally get where I want him, just like I do with my gun. Slowly increase the pressure on the trigger, waiting for that "surprise triggering" just like I do with my gun.
Unfortunately, I can't do any of that with a vertical bow. There is a finite amount of time that I can hold that thing back. And of course there is no way of obtaining the "bench rest" with a vertical bow.
I often wonder why people have fought so hard to stuff crossbows into bow season and then turn around and do nothing but whine about how heavy and awkward they are. My gosh, just simply use all the similarities to guns to your benefit. Take advantage of the similarities instead of fighting them. As long as you have a range finder and a properly constructed and located stand, there is no excess weight or awkwardness and no wiggling while you are sighting and trying to get the deer within chip-shot range.
By the way, speaking od carrying awkwardness, I remember seeing that poaching-crook, Busbice hauling his x-bow with some kind of sling that put the thing against his back so the limbs were protected with his shoulders. Looked like a pretty slick way to transport the thing to the stand-site. Probably not the best way to still-hunt or drive deer if that's what you want to do. But in a properly planned and executed stand-hunt it sure would be a great way to carry the thing to your stand.

Have you ever shot one or hunted with one?

[WNYBuckHunter]

5 hours ago, Belo said:

To your first paragraph, i told you i'm not arguing that anymore, however I don't know anyone who uses a magnified scope or bipod on their compound.

And yes pulling one off the hanger sounds like a pain, but it also sounds like maybe that particular setup (as someone else mentioned too) is not great for a crossbow. However, there are plenty of setups including some of the treeforts, ground blinds and ladder stands some members use that wouldn't make any of those issues you mentioned a problem. As far as scope up close? that too sounds like an equipment setup issue or better yet, a compromise that us gun hunters also make so that we can poke out a little further. Heck i have a 3.5-10 on my rifle. that's not good at 20 yards lol.

So how would a hunter using a compound out of a Redneck blind, totally concealed have anything to worry about? I sometimes practice off of an elevated platform, and can put arrows inside of a pie plate at 60 yards when I practice consistently.  Same thing really. It’s not that hard with today’s compounds. Anyone can do it if they practice. I most Likely wouldn’t though. I also wouldn’t do that with my crossbow. I’m not using it any differently than my compound, it’s still just an arrow. It’s still vulnerable to the same issues like easy deflection, etc. Last year, I shot my buck at 40 with my compound, this year at 20 with my crossbow.

The scope on it is your typical crossbow scope. Not much magnification, but harder to get on target than a compound.

I dunno, It is what it is, and now that I have been hunting with it, I definately don’t agree that it’s any type of super weapon with much of an advantage over a compound besides being accurate with it faster than with a vertical bow. I also don’t see that as a bad thing. More clean kills by more people is good for the sport as far as I’m concerned. Even the big buck states like Illinois get it. NY will too soon enough. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

6 hours ago, Doc said:

See the gun next to the stool? That could just as easily be a crossbow with bench rests all around. Hell, lay it up there on some sandbags if you really want the hot set-up ..... lol. This is an excellent reliable gun stand and likely could double as an excellent crossbow stand that provides some pretty good 15 yard broadside shots to the trail. Just lay it up there just like I do my gun. Sight down the scope, just like I do my gun. Take your time and wait for the shot to develop, as long as it takes for the deer to fiddle around and finally get where I want him, just like I do with my gun. Slowly increase the pressure on the trigger, waiting for that "surprise triggering" just like I do with my gun.

Unfortunately, I can't do any of that with a vertical bow. There is a finite amount of time that I can hold that thing back. And of course there is no way of obtaining the "bench rest" with a vertical bow.

I often wonder why people have fought so hard to stuff crossbows into bow season and then turn around and do nothing but whine about how heavy and awkward they are. My gosh, just simply use all the similarities to guns to your benefit. Take advantage of the similarities instead of fighting them. As long as you have a range finder and a properly constructed and located stand, there is no excess weight or awkwardness and no wiggling while you are sighting and trying to get the deer within chip-shot range.

By the way, speaking od carrying awkwardness, I remember seeing that poaching-crook, Busbice hauling his x-bow with some kind of sling that put the thing against his back so the limbs were protected with his shoulders. Looked like a pretty slick way to transport the thing to the stand-site. Probably not the best way to still-hunt or drive deer if that's what you want to do. But in a properly planned and executed stand-hunt it sure would be a great way to carry the thing to your stand.

No one is whining about anything, we’re just pointing out that those of you with these preconceived notions of some super weapon that practically hunts for you, are wrong. Why don’t you give it a try and see? Hell, I’ll let you use mine for a few hunts. 

BTW, not hard to shoot a deer out of a blind. Just have to practice. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

6 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

As I have mentioned before I think I have the most experience with an Xbow on the forum and although I will admit that there is a learning curve and you have to be willing to adapt and know that it is not a vertical bow or a gun an Xbow is exponentially easier to kill deer with with once you learn what you have to do.


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Exponentially? Nah. A little bit, and quicker to learn? Sure. Just like a compound is easier than a recurve or long bow. Big deal. It’s still a type of bow. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

6 hours ago, Belo said:

i'd like to clarify that i don't think it's super easy. Just easier. Agree or no? And if you don't have a disability, why use a crossbow at all?

Sure, I agree it’s a bit easier. I use one for the same reason that I sometimes use my rifle rather than a shotgun or muzzleloader. Variety is the spice of life. If there was a jump on a deers back and stab it in the heart season, heck I would probably do that too. 

[nyslowhand]

3 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Have you ever shot one or hunted with one?

^^ Bingo.

See none of the members against Xbow use &/or full inclusion have answered this question! So have to assume their input is based on personal opinion, anti-Xbow propaganda, preconceived notions &/or selfish motives! Until you've carried a Xbow into the woods and hunted with it several times, JMO but think it's a little hypocritical to criticize anyone that would want to hunt with a Xbow.

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by nyslowhand

[Doc]

3 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

No one is whining about anything, we’re just pointing out that those of you with these preconceived notions of some super weapon that practically hunts for you, are wrong. Why don’t you give it a try and see? Hell, I’ll let you use mine for a few hunts. 

BTW, not hard to shoot a deer out of a blind. Just have to practice. 

In fact, I was directly responding to the previous posts that were talking about: "HUNTING with a crossbow is MUCH more movement, than a vertical bow. As it sits in your lap, the limbs flop side to side on the forend with the slightest nudge. Crossbow is also much heavier, and almost clunky to carry and handle. It seems to catch every limb and vine, on the way into the stand. And with the wider profile, deer pick off the crossbow, much more so than the slim vertical profile of a bow." and "Let me tell you, getting the crossbow off the hook is harder than my vertical bow, and getting it on target is not as easy as you seem to think it is. The scope is actually a bit of a hindrance at 20 yards, as it took longer to get the deer in the scope than it does to get my vertical bow sight on it. I also had to double check that my limbs were not going to smack the tree next to me (stand is in a clump tree), and had I not leaned back a bit, it would have. Sorry, but there simply was more movement involved than with my compound. Laying the crossbow on my lap the whole time? No freaking way, its too bulky and awkward." Perhaps characterizing all that as "whining" was not exactly the right term, but it sure seems like a bunch of good reasons to leave the damned contraption at home .....lol. 

Having been blessed with a healthy sense of logic, I think that I don't really have to experience everything to be able to figure out the basics of what it is like to actually use it. But perhaps there was something in my reply that was actually untrue that maybe having a crossbow in my hands would have cleared up. Did I actually say something there that wasn't true?

 

[Larry]

yes

[Buckmaster7600]

Exponentially? Nah. A little bit, and quicker to learn? Sure. Just like a compound is easier than a recurve or long bow. Big deal. It’s still a type of bow. 

Hunt with one for 10 or 11 years, kill 30+ deer with one and own 5 or 6 different ones until you figure out what you like then get back to me.

 

 

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[eagle rider]

100% complete and full inclusion.  If it can make folks harvest safer and more effectively with archery tackle, its stupid to not include it.  It definitely isn't anymore lethal than a compound bow, just more accurate.  KE is the same.  There is no down side to it at all.  This was the way it was in the 60's with the compound shooters as well.  The traditional archery lobby held them back for years.  It took most other states making it good to fly before NYS did.  As far as safety records go, there is no uptick at all in the reports that indicate xbows are more of a risk than compounds or traditional archery tackle.  

[Jamoke]

Not for nothing, but what is all this crap about it being heavy and can't get it off the hanger?!?! It hangs by the foot holder and comes off easier than a compound. Geesh....

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

In fact, I was directly responding to the previous posts that were talking about: "HUNTING with a crossbow is MUCH more movement, than a vertical bow. As it sits in your lap, the limbs flop side to side on the forend with the slightest nudge. Crossbow is also much heavier, and almost clunky to carry and handle. It seems to catch every limb and vine, on the way into the stand. And with the wider profile, deer pick off the crossbow, much more so than the slim vertical profile of a bow." and "Let me tell you, getting the crossbow off the hook is harder than my vertical bow, and getting it on target is not as easy as you seem to think it is. The scope is actually a bit of a hindrance at 20 yards, as it took longer to get the deer in the scope than it does to get my vertical bow sight on it. I also had to double check that my limbs were not going to smack the tree next to me (stand is in a clump tree), and had I not leaned back a bit, it would have. Sorry, but there simply was more movement involved than with my compound. Laying the crossbow on my lap the whole time? No freaking way, its too bulky and awkward." Perhaps characterizing all that as "whining" was not exactly the right term, but it sure seems like a bunch of good reasons to leave the damned contraption at home .....lol. 

Having been blessed with a healthy sense of logic, I think that I don't really have to experience everything to be able to figure out the basics of what it is like to actually use it. But perhaps there was something in my reply that was actually untrue that maybe having a crossbow in my hands would have cleared up. Did I actually say something there that wasn't true?

 

Lol yeah I wasnt whining. Before this year when I got mine, I was actually pretty up in the air about owning and hunting with one. I have always supported legalizing them and full inclusion, but after so many discussions with you, belo and others, I started to think “What if those guys are right, what if it is simply too easy. Might I have been wrong about these things?” I had shot a couple of them a couple times, but I didnt Have that much experience with them and I had Never hunted with one. This year my girlfriend surprised me with one so I started Shooting it. Man is it fun, and the more I practiced With it in typical hunting type situations, the more I realized That it just was not as easy as some made it out to be. Once I hunted With it, I saw That it really is, just another form of archery hunting, complete with the same basic challenges as when I hunt with my compound. The buck I shot With it was just as much of an accomplishment as the deer I’ve killed with my compound, I still Had to use all of my bow hunting skills to get myself into the right place at the right time and successfully make a good shot on him. I could Have done the same with my compound. 

In the end, it’s just a different tool that I have Added to my collection, that I can Use to fill my freezer and enjoy the challenge of getting in close to my quarry. 

Like I said, if you ever want to give one a go, let me know, I’d be glad to lend you mine. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

27 minutes ago, Jamoke said:

Not for nothing, but what is all this crap about it being heavy and can't get it off the hanger?!?! It hangs by the foot holder and comes off easier than a compound. Geesh....

Who said anything about it being too heavy to get off the hanger? Go back and read what I wrote  

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Hunt with one for 10 or 11 years, kill 30+ deer with one and own 5 or 6 different ones until you figure out what you like then get back to me.

 

 

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I could Say the same about a compound. Actually shooting the deer isn’t that hard when you do it for long enough. The challenge is really in getting yourself close enough to make a good shot. 

[Buckmaster7600]

I could Say the same about a compound. Actually shooting the deer isn’t that hard when you do it for long enough. The challenge is really in getting yourself close enough to make a good shot. 

Not even comparable,done arguing with you. You've owned one for a couple months and killed a dandy buck with it and are obviously an expert.


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[WNYBuckHunter]

7 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Not even comparable,done arguing with you. You've owned one for a couple months and killed a dandy buck with it and are obviously an expert.


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I’m not saying I’m an expert, but I have enough experience with it to know what the real deal is. Funny, but I thought This was a discussion, not an argument. 

[chas0218]

9 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

So how would a hunter using a compound out of a Redneck blind, totally concealed have anything to worry about? I sometimes practice off of an elevated platform, and can put arrows inside of a pie plate at 60 yards when I practice consistently.  Same thing really. It’s not that hard with today’s compounds. Anyone can do it if they practice. I most Likely wouldn’t though. I also wouldn’t do that with my crossbow. I’m not using it any differently than my compound, it’s still just an arrow. It’s still vulnerable to the same issues like easy deflection, etc. Last year, I shot my buck at 40 with my compound, this year at 20 with my crossbow.

The scope on it is your typical crossbow scope. Not much magnification, but harder to get on target than a compound.

I dunno, It is what it is, and now that I have been hunting with it, I definately don’t agree that it’s any type of super weapon with much of an advantage over a compound besides being accurate with it faster than with a vertical bow. I also don’t see that as a bad thing. More clean kills by more people is good for the sport as far as I’m concerned. Even the big buck states like Illinois get it. NY will too soon enough. 

Whoa wait you just said that if you practice consistently you can put all your arrows within a pie plate at 60 yards then say anyone can do it. No not anyone can do it. I watch guys practice everyday for the season and after 40 yards they are missing the target completely. Not anyone can do it. Now I have watched these same guys use a crossbow and have 2" or better groups at 60 yards. I'm sorry but what you stating is just not true.

Most crossbow scopes give you 1.5x up to 6x normally out to 100 yards what would you need more than 6x? I know guys that use 4x fixed magnification on their deer rifles and shoot well past 100 yards. I have seen scopes for bows but guess what, normally fixed magnification andno adjustability for distances so you would be limited by the speed of your bow what will most likely never shoot IBO speeds stated in the other thread unless you decide to shoot 80lbs. draw or more and under spined arrows. 

Bipod really? how many guys do you know shoot with a bipod on their  vertical bows? How many have you seen? I watched 1 person use a bipod on youtube. If shooting anything other than a drop away it throw your shot so far off it wouldn't be right you can't use a bipod on a vertical bow while hunting from a tree stand maybe one of those shooting shacks or in a blind but no way in a tree stand. Also there is no way you could rest your bow on a shooting rail and accurately shoot a deer. Even if you rest the stabilizer I wouldn't want to imagine the noise it would make or clanging it would have.

Can I ask why if using a crossbow from a treestand would you hang it up? I mean when I shot one I laid it across my lap sitting in  a chair no problem granted one side of the strings rested against my leg but it wasn't uncomfortable at least no more than laying my compound across my lap.

All of the things you claim one can do with a vertical are far stretch from a practical hunting bow. Which is what the crossbow is geared towards being able to utilize all the fun features of a gun but to be used during archery. I have no problem with people physically disabled using a crossbow. My father has had 3 shoulder surgeries one on his left and 2 on his right. He has a very hard time pulling back a bow set at 45lbs. so he went to the crossbow this year. I don't think anything less of him or anyone else for using a crossbow because they physically can't use a vertical bow.

Edited November 9, 2017 by chas0218