jjb4900 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 all else aside, I guess the question you have to ask yourself is "what am I hunting today?", if the answer is Deer, then you should probably leave the crossbow home until it's legal.....if you ran into an ECO and he asked what you were doing and you said "deer hunting, but I have the crossbow "just in case" I see a Turkey"....chances are you're gonna be in the wrong, you can waste time and money fighting a ticket, and you may or may not wind up winning. But, in the end the ECO lost nothing, LEO's have tickets thrown out all the time...they get paid to go to court and all that good stuff, no skin off their teeth. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApexerER Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 14 minutes ago, Belo said: so you'd be hunting squirrels with a bow and crossbow? If a LEO buys that story he needs a new profession. If you're turkey hunting without a decoy or a single call, than you're better than most. If you're deer hunting you cannot posses a weapon that is illegal during the deer season. that was pretty clear in the regs and right now the crossbow isn't legal. Accept that the regulations say firearm.....in bow season.....nothing about crossbow.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Seasons Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 54 minutes ago, growalot said: talk about dismissing... Here we go and how do you suppose he would put together probable cause without a dead deer? You think they are going to say hey you out there with turkey decoys and a shotgun with turkey shot...I think your hunting deer here's your ticket...because here's your sign unless he strip searches whom ever he stops and finds a slug on them there is NO probable cause with out dead deer nobody is hunting deer with turkey shot. but they are hunting with vertical bows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Seasons Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 32 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said: I do know guys that do it in the spring. There are some on the site that live to turkey hint and barely hunt deer at all. With some of the comments I've seen here I guess you would have to tell me what style boots you were wearing so we can determine if the law is broken. your burden of proof is "hunter caught on video shooting deer with crossbow". You know they convict people of murder with far less evidence. Game laws which carry some pretty puny penalties in NY aren't going to need much more than a hunter without any turkey gear in the woods with a crossbow during archery season to AT THE VERY LEAST ticket them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Seasons Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said: That isn't what it says. Should but doesn't it seems that what was quoted a few pages back clearly says that. let me pose another one. i want to hunt squirrel with a 30-06. I believe that's legal. Stupid, but legal. So I get caught in the woods during archery with a rifle. I tell the dec i'm hunting squirrel. does anyone think i'm NOT getting a ticket? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Seasons Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 3 hours ago, chas0218 said: Here you go: It is unlawful to: Take big game while the deer or bear is in water. Possess a firearm of any description when bowhunting or when accompanying a person bowhunting during special archery seasons. Make, set, or use a salt lick on land inhabited by deer or bear. And before you start to say it doesn't pertain: Big Game License requirement: The new law essentially treats crossbows as a muzzleloader. Hunters must possess a muzzleloader hunting privilege to legally hunt with a crossbow during any muzzleloader season OR during open portions of the early bowhunting seasons. Muzzleloader privilege is not required when hunting with a crossbow during the early bear season or the regular firearms seasons. So in summary a crossbow is treated like a muzzleloader meaning you cannot take it afield while bowhunting. There it is in WRITING now all of you stop arguing about this crap. 14 minutes ago, ApexerER said: Accept that the regulations say firearm.....in bow season.....nothing about crossbow.... maybe clear as mud. and what one agency classifies as a firearm doesn't jive with what the other classifies it as for a hunting privilege lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNYBuckHunter Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, ApexerER said: This seems to be a debate on what we think should be illegal and what is illegal. Some of the posters/LEO's etc think it should be illegal to carry a bow and a crossbow during the bow only season. They probably intended for it to be illegal just like carrying a shotgun and a bow. From some oversight it was never put in the Regs which would make what Grow is doing legal by every definition. Now a LEO could ticket her and it would be up to her to prove to the court that what she is doing is legal. Which if there isn't a regulation on it doesn't seem to me like it would be that difficult. I think Grow found an unintended loophole. That loophole gives her the ability to do what she is doing. I have thought about bringing both my bow and crossbow to my treestand during crossbow season. The only reason I would do this was so that if I was to miss with my crossbow and for whatever reason the deer was not startled it would be much easier to grab my bow than to try and hook up a pull rope, cock my crossbow and add a bolt...all without being scene. Hang on a second. What grow asked was about taking a bow for deer and a crossbow for turkey during deer bow season. Theres no loophole, its not legal. She would have to hunt either deer and turkey with a vertical bow, or she would have to hunt turkey with a crossbow. Its pretty cut and dry really. You could try and say theres a loophole, because noone can prove that you would shoot a deer with the crossbow, but its most likely going to come back and bite you either in how much it costs to fight, or you get the fine because they dont believe you. What you are talking about, taking a crossbow and bow for deer, would be perfectly legal during crossbow season. You can take a rifle and a bow into the woods for deer during gun season if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culvercreek hunt club Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 your burden of proof is "hunter caught on video shooting deer with crossbow". You know they convict people of murder with far less evidence. Game laws which carry some pretty puny penalties in NY aren't going to need much more than a hunter without any turkey gear in the woods with a crossbow during archery season to AT THE VERY LEAST ticket them. So even though they made it legal for turkey hunting they didn't mean it? I'm just busting. I get it. My issue with the whole thing is how the laws are written and how hey leave it up to some DEC employees that have less than perfect grasp of the regulations they are charged to enforce. I have had personal encounter with a few and am actually related to one that has no business doing it for game laws. Wouldn't know the difference between a fisher and a raccoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culvercreek hunt club Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Hang on a second. What grow asked was about taking a bow for deer and a crossbow for turkey during deer bow season. Theres no loophole, its not legal. She would have to hunt either deer and turkey with a vertical bow, or she would have to hunt turkey with a crossbow. Its pretty cut and dry really. You could try and say theres a loophole, because noone can prove that you would shoot a deer with the crossbow, but its most likely going to come back and bite you either in how much it costs to fight, or you get the fine because they dont believe you. What you are talking about, taking a crossbow and bow for deer, would be perfectly legal during crossbow season. You can take a rifle and a bow into the woods for deer during gun season if you want.So a crossbow is a firearm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNYBuckHunter Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Culvercreek hunt club said: So a crossbow is a firearm? Where did I say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culvercreek hunt club Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Where did I say that?What section are you using to decide it would be illegal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Seasons Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 15 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said: So even though they made it legal for turkey hunting they didn't mean it? I'm just busting. I get it. My issue with the whole thing is how the laws are written and how hey leave it up to some DEC employees that have less than perfect grasp of the regulations they are charged to enforce. I have had personal encounter with a few and am actually related to one that has no business doing it for game laws. Wouldn't know the difference between a fisher and a raccoon. this we can agree on. btw, I've spent my career on this kind of thing. Mostly DEC, EPA and OSHA. Most regs have "loopholes" or are written poorly. It literally takes an act of congress to update them so they sit unchanged because congress is a bunch of *&#($&#WQ(. At the end of the day though, very few people get off on technicalities. If they want you bad enough, they will get you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
growalot Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I believe and I think this relevant that we are forgetting another incident...The feeding law...where it was officers discretion as to legality. Let me point this out and consider it carefully When officers are told that when looking at a convoluted law just use your discretion. They are basically being told that as an individual they are allowed to set law on a case to case basis. One would think after losing in NYS court a lesson was learned . BUT NO that law was left on the books with an acknowledgement that it was legal in just one county. I will admit I haven't kept up, so I do not know if it has been re-worded or changed but it was left for at least a few years. They did this for cost reasons and decided they would take a chance on any other challenges from other counties. Ask your self , with small town justices probably know less than the DEC officers if this is how you want the game laws to be enforced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNYBuckHunter Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I simply added up the fact that crossbow is not legal for deer during bow season, and the fact that a gun is not legal during bow season, then I looked at the fact that you arent allowed to carry a gun while you are deer hunting during bow season (regardless of what other species gun is legal for at that time), and correlated the two things. It adds up to you cant carry a crossbow during bow season while you are deer hunting, the same as you cant carry a firearm while deer hunting during bow season. Does NY spell it out? I dont know, and Im thinking it may not, because NY is dumb. Even if it doesnt though, its one of those common sense "spirit of the law" things. We can thank the anti crossbow groups for the mess surrounding things like this, because they caused so much chaos in writing the laws. Hopefully full inclusion happens and we wont have to worry about it anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culvercreek hunt club Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said: I simply added up the fact that crossbow is not legal for deer during bow season, and the fact that a gun is not legal during bow season, then I looked at the fact that you arent allowed to carry a gun while you are deer hunting during bow season (regardless of what other species gun is legal for at that time), and correlated the two things. It adds up to you cant carry a crossbow during bow season while you are deer hunting, the same as you cant carry a firearm while deer hunting during bow season. Does NY spell it out? I dont know, and Im thinking it may not, because NY is dumb. Even if it doesnt though, its one of those common sense "spirit of the law" things. We can thank the anti crossbow groups for the mess surrounding things like this, because they caused so much chaos in writing the laws. Hopefully full inclusion happens and we wont have to worry about it anymore. I agree with the process and conclusion but it ins't supported by the wording of the law and the definition of a "firearm" . I expect they won't change it and will muddle through over a season or two until full inclusion 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Seasons Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 57 minutes ago, growalot said: I believe and I think this relevant that we are forgetting another incident...The feeding law...where it was officers discretion as to legality. Let me point this out and consider it carefully When officers are told that when looking at a convoluted law just use your discretion. They are basically being told that as an individual they are allowed to set law on a case to case basis. One would think after losing in NYS court a lesson was learned . BUT NO that law was left on the books with an acknowledgement that it was legal in just one county. I will admit I haven't kept up, so I do not know if it has been re-worded or changed but it was left for at least a few years. They did this for cost reasons and decided they would take a chance on any other challenges from other counties. Ask your self , with small town justices probably know less than the DEC officers if this is how you want the game laws to be enforced? and here we have it. she's off the reservation again with no admission of even the slightest bit of guilt. time to put a pin in this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApexerER Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 51 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said: I simply added up the fact that crossbow is not legal for deer during bow season, and the fact that a gun is not legal during bow season, then I looked at the fact that you arent allowed to carry a gun while you are deer hunting during bow season (regardless of what other species gun is legal for at that time), and correlated the two things. It adds up to you cant carry a crossbow during bow season while you are deer hunting, the same as you cant carry a firearm while deer hunting during bow season. Does NY spell it out? I dont know, and Im thinking it may not, because NY is dumb. Even if it doesnt though, its one of those common sense "spirit of the law" things. We can thank the anti crossbow groups for the mess surrounding things like this, because they caused so much chaos in writing the laws. Hopefully full inclusion happens and we wont have to worry about it anymore. I agree with you...that is why I wrote that I believe it is intended to be illegal but it isn't written anywhere that it is....Unless.....a crossbow is a firearm...which they never call a crossbow a firearm nor should they. I wouldn't do what Grow is doing because I believe I would get a ticket and wouldn't have the time/money/lawyer to fight it.... That being said, I agree with Grow that she is not breaking the law the way it is written. Written and intended are two different things. I believe that if Grow got a ticket and wanted to fight it she would win....She can't even get an answer from Albany so they don't even know if it written. Most likely because it was never considered when a crossbow became a legal tool to hunt with... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
growalot Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Quote It adds up to you cant carry a crossbow during bow season while you are deer hunting, the same as you cant carry a firearm while deer hunting during bow season. It adds up... is not written law..They CLEARLY state one and Do Not address the other from the actual regulation book. It's not addressed in the manner of taking section of big game, though guns are.It is not addressed on the seasons maps it just says your not allowed to take a deer... I Went by what I read... I do not "add things up" when it comes to regulations nor should anyone else they should be clearly written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culvercreek hunt club Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, ApexerER said: I agree with you...that is why I wrote that I believe it is intended to be illegal but it isn't written anywhere that it is....Unless.....a crossbow is a firearm...which they never call a crossbow a firearm nor should they. I wouldn't do what Grow is doing because I believe I would get a ticket and wouldn't have the time/money/lawyer to fight it.... That being said, I agree with Grow that she is not breaking the law the way it is written. Written and intended are two different things. I believe that if Grow got a ticket and wanted to fight it she would win....She can't even get an answer from Albany so they don't even know if it written. Most likely because it was never considered when a crossbow became a legal tool to hunt with... +1 and this is what we end up with when you have a reactive government and little planning. "we have to pass a law to find out what is in a law" approach to things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApexerER Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Now can someone please go hunting today so I can read the live from the woods thread instead of this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjb4900 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I'm willing to bet, that if you are found hunting with a crossbow before the legal season, and everything about you points to "Deer Hunting", you're going to have a problem. It has nothing to do with with what category a crossbow falls into, it's all about having an implement that is not legal for what you're doing at the time.....if all of your gear is for nothing but deer hunting, the presumptive evidence points to "Deer Hunting". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
growalot Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 No Kidding...I am still deciding ...Mr B got eggs for dinner last night...I'm thinking I need to put a great meal on the table tonight so I can give him late crockpot ones the rest of the week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
growalot Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) JJB I actually had nothing on me for either...I call turkey with my natural voice and can actually grunt and snort wheez the same...I do not use scents this early in season so there was nothing other than weapons. Edited October 24, 2017 by growalot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNYBuckHunter Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, growalot said: It adds up... is not written law..They CLEARLY state one and Do Not address the other from the actual regulation book. It's not addressed in the manner of taking section of big game, though guns are.It is not addressed on the seasons maps it just says your not allowed to take a deer... I Went by what I read... I do not "add things up" when it comes to regulations nor should anyone else they should be clearly written. I agree that it should be clearly written. Its also common sense to say to yourself "Well if this weapon, thats not legal for deer at this time, cant be carried while deer hunting, then this other weapon, thats not legal for deer at this time, shouldnt be carried while deer hunting either." I am not a fan of grey areas, I am also not a fan of pointlessly wasting my time in court. I have better things to do. What you need to ask yourself is, because its a grey area, is it worth your time and money to fight it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steuben Jerry Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, Belo said: and here we have it. she's off the reservation again with no admission of even the slightest bit of guilt. time to put a pin in this one. Belo, I like reading your posts and all, but you're like a dog on a bone with Growalot. Did she kill your puppy or something? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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