Argument Over Shortening Gun Season

[Hunter007]

2 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Additional licenses would be 10% of the population growth while hunters only make up approx. .03% of the population based on license sales.  This means statistically that participation is growing at a great rate over the last 10 years.  For what its worth though, the most hunting license sales occurred in 1984 (as far as I can tell) and NY is down from that number.  So at least base your argument on a longer period.

Bingo that is what I was talking about 

[moog5050]

1 minute ago, Storm914 said:

Bingo that is what I was talking about 

You're welcome for that tid bit of info.  lol

[Hunter007]

4 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

You're welcome for that tid bit of info.  lol

You new what I ment lol 

[moog5050]

4 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

Bingo that is what I was talking about 

And I will offer my opinion on why numbers are down from 1984 - technology.  It has caused people/kids to demand immediate gratification and a hobby like hunting that requires quiet patience simply doesn't fit the bill and that ain't going to change regardless of whether gun season is 10 days or a month.

[grampy]

5 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

And I will offer my opinion on why numbers are down from 1984 - technology.  It has caused people/kids to demand immediate gratification and a hobby like hunting that requires quiet patience simply doesn't fit the bill and that ain't going to change regardless of whether gun season is 10 days or a month.

Yes sir, I couldn't agree more!  

[Culvercreek hunt club]

7 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

Bingo that is what I was talking about 

Look at the areas that are keeping the numbers up in the time frame you quoted. (2017 actually has a total state net decline).

Upstate  has a decline in the time frame you are hanging your hat on. That is where the hunters are. Yes there are some (meaning less by percent of population that upstate) in the NY City area and Long Island but the vast hunting population is Upstate. 

http://www.newyorkupstate.com/news/2017/03/new_york_population_numbers_census_shows_which_counties_are_growing_shrinking.html

Then look at the Foreign immigration numbers on here and how many of those are participating in the hunting seasons?

http://www.newyorkupstate.com/news/2017/03/new_york_population_numbers_census_shows_which_counties_are_growing_shrinking.html

 

Without the foreign influx into the City it would be a much different number even on a statewide total. 

 

Tell what ever story you want but tell the whole story. 

 

[gjs4]

Devils advocate role- maybe the younger generation is turned off by the lack of trophy opportunity due to the previous generations valuing quantity over quality.

Selfish is selfish- whether you’re hoarding the apples or grapefruits doesn’t matter.


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[moog5050]

5 minutes ago, gjs4 said:

Devils advocate role- maybe the younger generation is turned off by the lack of trophy opportunity due to the previous generations valuing quantity over quality.

Selfish is selfish- whether you’re hoarding the apples or grapefruits doesn’t matter.


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Quality is a matter of opinion as is the desire to shoot trophy bucks but we both know they are out there even in NY.  I don't disagree that NY could be managed to produce more mature bucks which personally I would like - but that's is not everyone's goal.  But I really don't think even that would cause the younger generations to jump into hunting more.  I thought I read somewhere that the biggest segment of new hunters are those that want naturally occurring food sources and that does not require more mature bucks.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Devils advocate role- maybe the younger generation is turned off by the lack of trophy opportunity due to the previous generations valuing quantity over quality.

Selfish is selfish- whether you’re hoarding the apples or grapefruits doesn’t matter.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Boom! What fun is it to shoot a bunch of baby deer when they see guys all over Tv and every state around us shooting adult mature deer. I always found it funny that all the classes are always full for hunting permits but our hunter numbers keep dropping so they say? Strange!


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[Padre86]

On 12/8/2017 at 4:21 PM, NFA-ADK said:

It does if you are one of the hunters who likes to go in late when other hunters have given up, or if you are one of the hunters like the many trackers upstate that only hunt when snow is on the ground.  A short season may give you no snow and no chance at tracking which is how many get there deer who use tracking to hunt. 

^Agree.

The long firearm season makes sense at least for the Northern Zone.  Snow is pretty important, considered essential by many, to be effective up in the big woods.  Sometimes the snow doesn't come until very late in the regular season.  This past year the foliage was up fairly late into the season.  If you head into the woods with no snow and lots of leaves still up, you're just beating around the bush, pun intended.

I say keep the season length the same up in the Northern Zone.  Southern Zone gun season seems pretty short as it is, but that's just my 2 cents.

[Robhuntandfish]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

And right there shows me that you do not get it. We arent talking ARs (voluntary or mandatory), this has nothing to do with bigger racks, and in no way is shortening the season telling anyone what deer to shoot. Its all about lower pressure and herd health equaling better hunting whether you are a meat hunter or trophy hunter or anywhere in between.

Oops wrong again.  So you don't think the herd numbers in NY can facilitate the long season? DEC is giving out extra permits for free in many zones and then even sent some out to people that were turned down.  They are having town meetings about deer numbers all over the place and extending seasons to try and lower the population.   Just because deer are " pressured" doesnt mean they disappear.  Part of hunting is figuring that out.  Because the deer season isn't two weeks long instead of three isn't gonna keep the population more healthy than it already is.  Sorry that deer are smart and figure out where to hide. better from you when they are pressured.  If you don't want to pressure them then take some time off YOUR hunting spot.  But not everyone gets unlimited hunting time.  What you don't appreciate is how good you have it in NY with the generous seasons we have.  Why limit the time afield for everyone on the state??   Cause your deer are hiding better, yeah that's fair.  And as far as the health of the herd....i would say NY is pretty healthy here.  With the tough winters we have our deer herd is strong and we haven't seen any CWD like these states with shorter seasons. ( And no I don't think a shorter season has anything to do with CWD) just as I also don't think our longer season does either.   

[Hunter007]

37 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Boom! What fun is it to shoot a bunch of baby deer when they see guys all over Tv and every state around us shooting adult mature deer. I always found it funny that all the classes are always full for hunting permits but our hunter numbers keep dropping so they say? Strange!


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I know one guy who after shooting a nice buck never went hunting again  i ask him why he never goes anymore he said I got sick of freezing my ass off seeing nothing but  doe  and I have no time anymore . He said 

I got my buck already anyway.

He mounted it and that Was it don't know how common that is  . But it happens  

Edited December 27, 2017 by Storm914

[stubby68]

Lack of trophy opertunities? Seems plenty of trophy bucks are gotten every year. The pics on social media show that. Then how many are shot that never get posted because the guy who shot it doesn't do social media or just does not have the need to brag. There isn't a lack of trophy bucks there is a lack of trophy bucks  behind every tree as people see on hunting shows. They need to grow up and realize those shows are fake hunting. Too many people want instant satisfaction when the want a trophy. Participation  trophies are wanted by everyone these days. News flash if you want a trophy work for it. They are there, they are gotten every year. You just do not see them in the first 5 minutes of every see like most want.

               To some quality is good tasting meat not a huge rack. The quantity  problem comes into play when you shoot all the big bucks. If you shoot all the big bucks this year next year's big bucks numbers will be lower. This happens every year and then people start complaining there are no big bucks. There always plenty of young bucks left after season to replace the big ones that got shot. However it takes a a few years for these bucks to get big. In the mean time they are the biggest ones left so they are shot for trophies because all the actually trophy bucks were killed of in previous years. It is called high gradeing. Only way to avoid it is to only having a hunting season every 5 years. Shoot all your big trophies then wait 5 years and you will have more trophies behind every tree like trophy hunters want.

        They overrun it to get a trophy buck is here most just do not want to work for it.

[moog5050]

2 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

Lack of trophy opertunities? Seems plenty of trophy bucks are gotten every year. The pics on social media show that. Then how many are shot that never get posted because the guy who shot it doesn't do social media or just does not have the need to brag. There isn't a lack of trophy bucks there is a lack of trophy bucks  behind every tree as people see on hunting shows. They need to grow up and realize those shows are fake hunting. Too many people want instant satisfaction when the want a trophy. Participation  trophies are wanted by everyone these days. News flash if you want a trophy work for it. They are there, they are gotten every year. You just do not see them in the first 5 minutes of every see like most want.

               

I agree with this part Stubby!  And depending on how high you set those standards, there will be years where no matter how hard you work, it just doesn't happen.  That is one of the things that we should enjoy about the pursuit of a mature buck, its not easy nor guaranteed.

[stubby68]

Maybe the younger generation is turned off of hunting because they can not Handel the weather. In every article that puts NY at the bottom of the list for hunting it always says weather is a big factor. People get there hunting licenses then when they go out hunting expect it to be warm dry and sunny like on those hunting shows. Once they find out it is not as warm or easy as they thought they stop hunting.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

8 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

Oops wrong again.  So you don't think the herd numbers in NY can facilitate the long season? DEC is giving out extra permits for free in many zones and then even sent some out to people that were turned down.  They are having town meetings about deer numbers all over the place and extending seasons to try and lower the population.   Just because deer are " pressured" doesnt mean they disappear.  Part of hunting is figuring that out.  Because the deer season isn't two weeks long instead of three isn't gonna keep the population more healthy than it already is.  Sorry that deer are smart and figure out where to hide. better from you when they are pressured.  If you don't want to pressure them then take some time off YOUR hunting spot.  But not everyone gets unlimited hunting time.  What you don't appreciate is how good you have it in NY with the generous seasons we have.  Why limit the time afield for everyone on the state??   Cause your deer are hiding better, yeah that's fair.  And as far as the health of the herd....i would say NY is pretty healthy here.  With the tough winters we have our deer herd is strong and we haven't seen any CWD like these states with shorter seasons. ( And no I don't think a shorter season has anything to do with CWD) just as I also don't think our longer season does either.   

Huh.........Deer in this area and many more that ARE open for hunting must be freaking masters at the game because they are never seen at ANY time of the year.

You speak of all these deer and then you speak of towns?  Well i guess the unlimited pressure on those deer that drove them into these towns to continue breeding because of no pressure may be your answer to all these deer you speak of.

Maybe if they are not chased around for 3 months at a time the deer may be back in their normal haunts?

[WNYBuckHunter]

11 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

Oops wrong again.  So you don't think the herd numbers in NY can facilitate the long season? DEC is giving out extra permits for free in many zones and then even sent some out to people that were turned down.  They are having town meetings about deer numbers all over the place and extending seasons to try and lower the population.   Just because deer are " pressured" doesnt mean they disappear.  Part of hunting is figuring that out.  Because the deer season isn't two weeks long instead of three isn't gonna keep the population more healthy than it already is.  Sorry that deer are smart and figure out where to hide. better from you when they are pressured.  If you don't want to pressure them then take some time off YOUR hunting spot.  But not everyone gets unlimited hunting time.  What you don't appreciate is how good you have it in NY with the generous seasons we have.  Why limit the time afield for everyone on the state??   Cause your deer are hiding better, yeah that's fair.  And as far as the health of the herd....i would say NY is pretty healthy here.  With the tough winters we have our deer herd is strong and we haven't seen any CWD like these states with shorter seasons. ( And no I don't think a shorter season has anything to do with CWD) just as I also don't think our longer season does either.   

Do you have the capability of holding a conversation without taking it in 50 different directions at the same time? WTH does CWD have to do with anything?

No they dont disappear, they just move to areas that hunters cant get to. Its not just deer in my area, its anywhere. If you dont understand the concept of lessening the overall stress on a deer herd by shortening the amount of time they are under pressure, and less stress equaling healthier deer, then I dont know what to tell you. Ill remember this conversation the next time I see you bitching about a lack of deer sightings after the first week of gun season.

Listen, you are misinformed, I suggest that you educate yourself on proper deer management techniques. Im not going to sit here and argue about it. You are grasping at straws.

[Robhuntandfish]

1 minute ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Huh.........Deer in this area and many more that ARE open for hunting must be freaking masters at the game because they are never seen at ANY time of the year.

You speak of all these deer and then you speak of towns?  Well i guess the unlimited pressure on those deer that drove them into these towns to continue breeding because of no pressure may be your answer to all these deer you speak of.

Maybe if they are not chased around for 3 months at a time the deer may be back in their normal haunts?

They are in both.  Deer don't pack up and move for miles and head to the city.  Lol I was able to get permits for 8 deer for hunting season this year so the herd isn't healthy??  But making the season 7 days less is gonna bring deer to your hunting spot. Now that makes no sense.  

It's just common sense that if you hunt the same spot deer become wary of that spot.  But that doesn't mean you shorten the statewide season cause your deer have become spooky where you hunt.  Not everyone has that problem or that time in the woods and it's not a fix by legislation.   Why would you want to limit hunters opportunities to be in the field because deer wised up to where your hunting them.  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

12 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

Lack of trophy opertunities? Seems plenty of trophy bucks are gotten every year. The pics on social media show that. Then how many are shot that never get posted because the guy who shot it doesn't do social media or just does not have the need to brag. There isn't a lack of trophy bucks there is a lack of trophy bucks  behind every tree as people see on hunting shows. They need to grow up and realize those shows are fake hunting. Too many people want instant satisfaction when the want a trophy. Participation  trophies are wanted by everyone these days. News flash if you want a trophy work for it. They are there, they are gotten every year. You just do not see them in the first 5 minutes of every see like most want.

               To some quality is good tasting meat not a huge rack. The quantity  problem comes into play when you shoot all the big bucks. If you shoot all the big bucks this year next year's big bucks numbers will be lower. This happens every year and then people start complaining there are no big bucks. There always plenty of young bucks left after season to replace the big ones that got shot. However it takes a a few years for these bucks to get big. In the mean time they are the biggest ones left so they are shot for trophies because all the actually trophy bucks were killed of in previous years. It is called high gradeing. Only way to avoid it is to only having a hunting season every 5 years. Shoot all your big trophies then wait 5 years and you will have more trophies behind every tree like trophy hunters want.

        They overrun it to get a trophy buck is here most just do not want to work for it.

LOL..Thats a good one.......Shoot all the big bucks.  That does not happen in this or any state.  If your theory was correct then all the big buck states would be out of bucks because they not only have all the locals chasing them for a couple weeks...They have paying non residents by the hundreds or thousands.  Seems as though every other state gets along just fine with shorter seasons? Oh and they also have a healthier over all population on top of having big mature bucks?

Funny how that works!

[Hunter007]

Yea but really if someone really wants a challenging hunt wouldn't they just go to a place like the adks or Catskills to do it big woods hunting .

That's what is great about this state there are many flavors of hunting you can do here . The only problem is some times you dont have the time To go to those places .

 

 

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

5 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

They are in both.  Deer don't pack up and move for miles and head to the city.  Lol I was able to get permits for 8 deer for hunting season this year so the herd isn't healthy??  But making the season 7 days less is gonna bring deer to your hunting spot. Now that makes no sense.  

It's just common sense that if you hunt the same spot deer become wary of that spot.  But that doesn't mean you shorten the statewide season cause your deer have become spooky where you hunt.  Not everyone has that problem or that time in the woods and it's not a fix by legislation.   Why would you want to limit hunters opportunities to be in the field because deer wised up to where your hunting them.  

Wow..You really are clueless. I'm glad you know how many deer my 900 acres or my area of the state has?  Must be they not only hide well but they also dont have to eat. I mean with all the standing beans and corn around with nothing eating it but turkeys must mean they are giving up food just to keep hiding in the swamp?

About every hunting state in the nation blows your theory out of the water.  But what do they know. They have only been the top hunting states in the country for the last 25 years?

[Robhuntandfish]

2 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Do you have the capability of holding a conversation without taking it in 50 different directions at the same time? WTH does CWD have to do with anything?

No they dont disappear, they just move to areas that hunters cant get to. Its not just deer in my area, its anywhere. If you dont understand the concept of lessening the overall stress on a deer herd by shortening the amount of time they are under pressure, and less stress equaling healthier deer, then I dont know what to tell you. Ill remember this conversation the next time I see you bitching about a lack of deer sightings after the first week of gun season.

Listen, you are misinformed, I suggest that you educate yourself on proper deer management techniques. Im not going to sit here and argue about it. You are grasping at straws.

You just don't get my point....I'm sorry for that as you couldn't even pick up sarcasm either.  My point is ypu want to limit the amount of time other hunters are allowed to hunt.  This is not fair to the general masses for the reasons you are giving.  The deer herd is NOT in any means in trouble in NY.  We have a healthy and robust deer herd in NY.  Taking 5-7 days out of whole year does not make or break anything with the health of the herd. As this is proven by the amount of deer.  Do you think the herd is unhealthy....... why?  It isn't.  And all shortening the season by a week of the year will have no impact on its health.  I would agree of deer numbers were low. They are not . The southern zone in most dmp's DEC is dying for more of a take, towns like Hamilton, Fayetteville, manlius, etc etc are all requesting a deer eradication, DEC just extended season in several spots to increase the deer take.  Your argument to limit season to have a larger herd would be true if it was in trouble.  

 

[Robhuntandfish]

1 hour ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Wow..You really are clueless. I'm glad you know how many deer my 900 acres or my area of the state has?  Must be they not only hide well but they also dont have to eat. I mean with all the standing beans and corn around with nothing eating it but turkeys must mean they are giving up food just to keep hiding in the swamp?

About every hunting state in the nation blows your theory out of the water.  But what do they know. They have only been the top hunting states in the country for the last 25 years?

So because deer are not out eating your corn for you to hunt them then the rest of the state shouldn't be able to hunt for a week.  Pretty narrow minded.  Further governed restrictions are not a win for hunters. More time in the field equals more opportunities and more chances to do what we enjoy.  Makes no sense to me why you would want to shorten it. Whether I see a deer that day or not, I enjoy the hunt.  And if the deer numbers across the state were in trouble I would agree with you.  Maybe where you are that's the case.  But in all the areas I hunt DEC can't even give away the 30,000 permits to control a robust deer herd.   And even then yes sometimes hunting is tough. That's why I like it it's a challenge.  But I don't want to sit home for week that I could be hunting. Nor do I want to have people across the state told that for the reasons that the deer are under so much more pressure from an extra 7 days.  If the deer herd is in such trouble why has the bow season been extended, the DMP s increased, towns asking for DEC to lower the deer herd, seasons in certain areas being extended, etc.......yeah it must be in bad shape.  

and this is coming from a die hard bowhunter that just isnt hugely into the gun season anymore.  But I am about being fair and taking a week away from the gun hunter for some reason that our deer herd is pressured is ridiculous.  I wonder if some of these guys would feel the same apathy for the deer herd if the suggestion was to close the season for a week lets say Nov 1-7 cause it would be less stress on the deer herd during the rut.  As many DEC seasons are built around being closed for the height of the mating seasons (fishing, frogs, April turkey, etc....)

Edited December 27, 2017 by Robhuntandfish

[dbHunterNY]

21 hours ago, nyantler said:

I wonder sometimes where you guys come up with this stuff... most of the guys I know that hunt north do the exact opposite because of the chance of snow that time of year being greater. Do you even hunt the Northern Tier? Seems to me people like to make claims about places they don't even hunt.

I don't think he hunts within the blue line, no.

[dbHunterNY]

I don't necessarily have a problem with season length.  I do think that it does help the deer that during a time when deer need to do what deer do, we have the most efficient weapon in our hands to make them hit the dirt and quick order.  that's also probably the time when they're the most pressured and stressed.  I also understand there'd be some push back changing it though.  most hunters are using guns hunting the regular season, and you'd effectively be taking away from them the "prime time" to hunt.