The future of deer hunting

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 minutes ago, gjs4 said:

 

I agree with a lot of what you said except it’s trashing some mule deer herds, spreading to elk and states like Wisconsin have more testing positive each yr. The dec is throwing out their proposed urine ban as a means to limit it spreading (which makes no sense and, as you stated, is not even warranted). Then again we have had Ehd here too and never hear about it and a lead ammo ban is likely in the next 5 and we don’t have condors in NY.

Is cwd spreading and killing deer in other states? Yes. Is the cdc saying test deer and don’t eat positive result animal material? Yes. Is that an issue here in NY? Not yet. Could that be a spin that toppled the deer hunting tower in the eyes of Joe & Jane public to shoot first and maybe eat it? I hope we never find ourselves there answering that.


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Care to show me where there ever was any Deer or Elk that died from CWD?     Care to explain why they have had to cut the fence at Wind Cave Park 3 times and release Elk into the wild?  Now this is a herd that has tested positive 85% and they are releasing them into the wilds for hunters to harvest?  Wisconsin has more deer now then they had when they found CWD and they were the only state that tried to wipe it out by killing 1000's of deer off. Yet they now have more animals?  

[Rack Attack]

4 hours ago, goosifer said:

You were the one that said IF we lost half of the hunters . . . . So, for purposes of my question, it doesn't really matter exactly how/why they were lost. When you said what you said, were you just assuming that this half would just voluntarily give up hunting? My question is, what if it weren't to be voluntary, would you care about these lost hunters?

Well, based on the previous context of the conversation the earlier posters where insinuating that people would be giving up hunting (voluntarily) due to lack of ambition, lack of available private land (which isn't a prerequisite to hunt) or lack of mentoring.  That is what I was framing my half the hunters lost comment around.  Like I have already said, I'm not seeing a legitimate situation where people would stop hunting where it was forced as you are insinuating.  If it was truly a situation where the hunters where forced out of the field then yes I would care about them.  If it is a situation where they chose not to hunt, lacked the foresight, ambition, drive or thought that they where owed the "right" to hunt and then where unable to hunt due to that then no I really don't care about them.  To be frank, I very sick and tired of our society feeling bad for people that choose not to take care of or try to help themselves.  I hope that clears up my position for you.

[DirtTime]

13 hours ago, goosifer said:

Rob, this thread isn't about hunting for antlers vs. hunting for meat. There are plenty of other threads and posts about that. This thread is about will there be anyone in the next generation hunting, and if so, under what conditions/circumstances. There have been some responses that have basically said that due to lack of access to hunting land in the future, the only hunting done will be hunting on private land at a cost, and futhermore, those future hunters will be hunting for horns. But that is not the same thing as what FSW usually says, that all hunting [today] is motivated by antlers. So I think you misinterpreted what this thread is intended to be about. Yeah, there are some posters that have strayed from the thread's topic, but I can't moderate that. Just look at the posts I've written in this thread to see my intentions for it.

You missed my point! The problem is too many will not hunt "Public" Land. If they loose a lease the give up if they don't have a "prime" area to hunt. Plenty of great public land to hunt, if you choose not to, or not to  take your kids onto public land, that's on you. Not all public land is that bad. It comes down to values. Would you hunt public land if you loss your leas or stop hunting?

8 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

What do you mean not another one of these threads? The day we as hunters stop discussing the future of our sport, is the day the sport dies.

What an ignorant post.

Seriously, so the staff don't have to follow the rules about insulting people?

The future of hunting is in our hands! Teaching, and following the laws. I have said over and over, the outdoors over all ( hunting, fishing, camping, hiking ) is being ruined by social media devices. Not just the youth, people/parents who used to hunt, fish, and camp don't do it anymore. They don't have the time.

 

Nice try at calling me "Ignorant". 

 

[gjs4]

It's funny, I was reading some old research from the DEC, like circa 2000, and they were worried about how declining hunter numbers were going to affect their ability to manage deer population and keep the ecosystem in balance.  I don't think CWD would be the silver bullet the DEC is looking for in this regard. How much is the hunters' role in deer population control worth to them? How much can they really do? do better?

I am not saying the DEC is in favor of CWD. No one wants it.

There is a a reason coyotes have a limited and difficult trapping season here though. Hunters can not control
Where they cannot access as well.

Not trying to stray from the topic here but what does the DEC do regarding deer? They have interns and techs age a few at processors ..... I think the buck stops there. (Some pun intended)


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[gjs4]

Care to show me where there ever was any Deer or Elk that died from CWD?     Care to explain why they have had to cut the fence at Wind Cave Park 3 times and release Elk into the wild?  Now this is a herd that has tested positive 85% and they are releasing them into the wilds for hunters to harvest?  Wisconsin has more deer now then they had when they found CWD and they were the only state that tried to wipe it out by killing 1000's of deer off. Yet they now have more animals?  

Here is one example of an abstract on Wyoming mulies. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0186512

Having good friends outside of Madison who work with deer for an occupation and hunting Illinois myself- numbers have, without a doubt, declined in areas. Substantially. That is the reference I have there.

I’m not sure why you’re coming on strong regarding this. I simply stated that hearing CWD is spreading and that the CDC says don’t eat that venison will pull us in an awful position as hunters within the activity and view of the public. I’m not cervid pandemic/endemic expert, not do I live in the west. I am concerned about deer hunting though. To leave them lay or lose access to venison myself is a deal breaker.


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[Doc]

So far no one has mentioned the cultural changes that impact hunting. In my mind, this is the real threat to the future of hunting. I come from a time when opening day of trout season, and opening day of gun season were acceptable excuses for school absence. I remember coming off the trap line and still wearing my hunting knife on my belt in school. Try that today....lol. I am from a time when many kids supplemented their school clothes budget with proceeds from their trap-line. When I started hunting, posted signs were an oddity. Few farmers had the time or the desire to tack them up and few of the owners of small family farms had any desire to keep hunters off their land. Hunter kept the destructive critter under control which meant more money in the farmer's pocket. Huge family get-togethers always had the men break off into the living room to swap hunting stories and talk about the deer that they got or saw. Every Monday morning at work there was a sizeable gathering at the coffee pot to discuss the weekend hunt. During the season, deer were openly transported on the fender of the car or hung in a tree in the front yard. Today we quickly conceal the carcasses in the bed of the truck and when we get them home, they are quickly put in some out of the way place or immediately packaged up before the snide remarks start coming from neighbors. As a part of rural America, kids always looked forward to the time when they could take part in hunting just like all the hunting adults around us. We all listened in as the adults would discuss their hunting exploits. Today the kids yawn at such discussions if they occur and silently slip away to play their latest techno-game.

It was a whole different world as the society and cultures have changed over the decades. Hunting has lost its honorable place in our society and is now looked at as a rather low-brow act of unnecessary brutality against the poor little helpless and defenseless forest creatures. The evolution of societal attitudes has been slow and crept over us in an insidious way such that many don't even recognize it today. And this is how the future of hunting will fade. The allure of technology and the so-called enlightenment of the population will replace the pastimes of the past. It is just another manifestation of the worship of change for change's sake.

[Robhuntandfish]

40 minutes ago, Doc said:

So far no one has mentioned the cultural changes that impact hunting. In my mind, this is the real threat to the future of hunting. I come from a time when opening day of trout season, and opening day of gun season were acceptable excuses for school absence. I remember coming off the trap line and still wearing my hunting knife on my belt in school. Try that today....lol. I am from a time when many kids supplemented their school clothes budget with proceeds from their trap-line. When I started hunting, posted signs were an oddity. Few farmers had the time or the desire to tack them up and few of the owners of small family farms had any desire to keep hunters off their land. Hunter kept the destructive critter under control which meant more money in the farmer's pocket. Huge family get-togethers always had the men break off into the living room to swap hunting stories and talk about the deer that they got or saw. Every Monday morning at work there was a sizeable gathering at the coffee pot to discuss the weekend hunt. During the season, deer were openly transported on the fender of the car or hung in a tree in the front yard. Today we quickly conceal the carcasses in the bed of the truck and when we get them home, they are quickly put in some out of the way place or immediately packaged up before the snide remarks start coming from neighbors. As a part of rural America, kids always looked forward to the time when they could take part in hunting just like all the hunting adults around us. We all listened in as the adults would discuss their hunting exploits. Today the kids yawn at such discussions if they occur and silently slip away to play their latest techno-game.

It was a whole different world as the society and cultures have changed over the decades. Hunting has lost its honorable place in our society and is now looked at as a rather low-brow act of unnecessary brutality against the poor little helpless and defenseless forest creatures. The evolution of societal attitudes has been slow and crept over us in an insidious way such that many don't even recognize it today. And this is how the future of hunting will fade. The allure of technology and the so-called enlightenment of the population will replace the pastimes of the past. It is just another manifestation of the worship of change for change's sake.

i mentioned this a little and in another thread as well. But yes cultural change is a def issue these days.  I remember those days as well of no one being at school on the gun opener and always taking the first day of trout off.  It was always funny cause in high school they started giving me a hard time about not having a written excuse.  Even the NFL is on a decline for the same reasons (among others) . Change will hapen whether we like it or not and there are so many more options these days for younger people .  The world has gotten a lot smaller with the internet and a whole lot bigger for people at the same time.  

[WNYBuckHunter]

9 hours ago, Rob... said:

You missed my point! The problem is too many will not hunt "Public" Land. If they loose a lease the give up if they don't have a "prime" area to hunt. Plenty of great public land to hunt, if you choose not to, or not to  take your kids onto public land, that's on you. Not all public land is that bad. It comes down to values. Would you hunt public land if you loss your leas or stop hunting?

Seriously, so the staff don't have to follow the rules about insulting people?

The future of hunting is in our hands! Teaching, and following the laws. I have said over and over, the outdoors over all ( hunting, fishing, camping, hiking ) is being ruined by social media devices. Not just the youth, people/parents who used to hunt, fish, and camp don't do it anymore. They don't have the time.

 

Nice try at calling me "Ignorant". 

 

Its an insult to say that your post was ignorant? Piss off. Theres no rule about insulting people anyway. Noone would ever be able to post anything if that were the case. Someone is insulted or offended about everything these days.

[chas0218]

On 1/15/2018 at 6:30 PM, Robhuntandfish said:

The experience of many in the outdoors is decreasing as children just are not inot the outdoors as people once were.  Video games are the choice of free time and can be accessed anytime in any weather. How many kids do you even see outside on a snow day anymore? Etc

I was just thinking about that, I was driving to work and was looking at all the lawns along the way. Not a single one had tracks from people or kids playing in the snow. I thought wow what has society come to now that no one goes outside anymore. Hunting will be a thing of the past for those that allow their kids to play video games instead of actually getting them outside.

[dbHunterNY]

13 hours ago, Stay at home Nomad said:

Part of the problem with recruiting youth hunters is today’s demand on their time . In my high school football days practice was after school games on Sat.

Opening day was Monday , you  could tell the coach you wouldn’t be there because it was opening day, chances are he wouldn’t be there either ....it was no big deal.

Today you’d be benched for missing practice .

My daughters hardest part about taking the hunter safety class was finding 3 nights in a row she could attend one . Once kids get their  license it doesn’t matter if they hunt right away , an opportunity may arise down the road and then they  can go and be hooked for life .

I got my lic. In high school hunted  a bit then stopped, got a job where it seemed like everyone hunted, I was asked to,go and because I had a lic. Previously I could go , then I was hooked for,life .

my younger cousin took forever to get his license because football prevented him from attending the course.  if he missed practice he was benched for at least one game.  he was a valued player too, but it was the same for everyone.

[dbHunterNY]

15 hours ago, Rack Attack said:

I think the posters and articles are referring to private land, which that may be true.  However, I really don't see public land access being reduced in the foreseeable future.

every bit of public land in the southern zone at least is surrounded by some property that's not and can't be hunted. as private land access goes down, some will flock to public land versus quit.  as public land gets more crowded i'd imagine deer will flock to adjacent not hunted property more and more.  when that happens not many tags will be filled on that public land and then hunters will lose interest if they can't find somewhere else. so i'd think.

[sodfather]

I hunted from the age of 14-18 then college I hunted for girls and a buzz. Didn’t get back into it till I was 27 then. People come and go. I think the issue will be more so what others have already said. Land access and/or CDC. I’m not positive but I thought Michigan had an issue some years ago. 

[Rack Attack]

10 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

every bit of public land in the southern zone at least is surrounded by some property that's not and can't be hunted. as private land access goes down, some will flock to public land versus quit.  as public land gets more crowded i'd imagine deer will flock to adjacent not hunted property more and more.  when that happens not many tags will be filled on that public land and then hunters will lose interest if they can't find somewhere else. so i'd think.

This is all assuming that there is the same number of total hunters.  The whole point of the conversation is that hunter numbers are going down.  What I'm saying is that I don't think you will see much if any change in hunter density on public land due tot he reduced number of hunters.  If you go back through many posts throughout the season you will see many people talk about the lack of vehicles/hunters so I don't really think over crowding of public land will be much of an issue.  Heck, many of the public land areas around me have lower hunter densities than the private land do.

[dbHunterNY]

12 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

This is all assuming that there is the same number of total hunters.  The whole point of the conversation is that hunter numbers are going down.  What I'm saying is that I don't think you will see much if any change in hunter density on public land due tot he reduced number of hunters.  If you go back through many posts throughout the season you will see many people talk about the lack of vehicles/hunters so I don't really think over crowding of public land will be much of an issue.  Heck, many of the public land areas around me have lower hunter densities than the private land do.

maybe.  it still seems that people are hunting together to an extent. not in the same treestand but the same property public or private.  seems like i see a change in hunters flocking to or away from certain properties more so than the actual number of hunters changing.  honestly others have posted how hunters might have something in life make them hunt less or more or be out of it completely but only temporarily. i've seen this happen too.
...i think the point i'm trying to make is a lot happens to make the perceived hunter density fluctuate wildy.  i don't think anyone could truly notice a change that wasn't coincidentally in line with published data or something on paper that looks at more than you or i privy to. 

Edited January 17, 2018 by dbHunterNY

[Four Season Whitetail's]

4 hours ago, gjs4 said:

 

Here is one example of an abstract on Wyoming mulies. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0186512

Having good friends outside of Madison who work with deer for an occupation and hunting Illinois myself- numbers have, without a doubt, declined in areas. Substantially. That is the reference I have there.

I’m not sure why you’re coming on strong regarding this. I simply stated that hearing CWD is spreading and that the CDC says don’t eat that venison will pull us in an awful position as hunters within the activity and view of the public. I’m not cervid pandemic/endemic expert, not do I live in the west. I am concerned about deer hunting though. To leave them lay or lose access to venison myself is a deal breaker.


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Not so much coming on strong. More so calling out the facts. No animals has ever been proven to die itself from CWD. Ever.  They are always tested positive after death by bullet or car bumper. They also say that the Mule deer are being hammered by a growing Lion population?

You also speak of Illinois which is a state that has last i  knew only had less than 1000 positives over like 10 years testing? But is a state that gets hammered with EHD which is the real killer of whitetails and mule deer by the 1000's every year.

Yes some say we should not eat CWD positive deer in our woods yet you look into the sheep business and look at Scrapies which is the same exact Prion yet they load our supermarket shelves with known positive meat?

I bring up Wind Cave because that is a state owned fenced in Elk herd that has an 85% positive CWD test rate and yet the state lowers the fence and lets them out for those sportsmen to hunt,harvest and consumed?  

One has to look at the big picture when it comes to CWD and with it effecting my business for the last 10 years i try to stay educated on the subject the best i can.  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, dbHunterNY said:

every bit of public land in the southern zone at least is surrounded by some property that's not and can't be hunted. as private land access goes down, some will flock to public land versus quit.  as public land gets more crowded i'd imagine deer will flock to adjacent not hunted property more and more.  when that happens not many tags will be filled on that public land and then hunters will lose interest if they can't find somewhere else. so i'd think.

Yup and that private land is now worth $1000;s more in lease because of all the great hunting

[goosifer]

4 hours ago, gjs4 said:

. . . Not trying to stray from the topic here but what does the DEC do regarding deer? They have interns and techs age a few at processors ..... I think the buck stops there. (Some pun intended)


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That's a great point. I wonder if there are any nationwide conservation groups that have done any studies evaluating how NY DEC handles deer compared to neighboring states. I know different states have different issues, but there has to be some way to evaluate the NYS DEC and hold them accountable.

[goosifer]

10 hours ago, Rob... said:

You missed my point! The problem is too many will not hunt "Public" Land. If they loose a lease the give up if they don't have a "prime" area to hunt. Plenty of great public land to hunt, if you choose not to, or not to  take your kids onto public land, that's on you. Not all public land is that bad. It comes down to values. Would you hunt public land if you loss your leas or stop hunting?

I'm sorry I missed your point. I recall reading something that defined access to hunting land as being something like an hour or less drive away from public hunting land, and that certain hunters have no access to hunting land by this definition.

As far as hunting public land in general, personally that is something that scares me but intrigues me. I worry about getting shot by another hunter, but it really is the place to be to do the style of hunting that certain hunters do (big woods, tracking, etc.)

[goosifer]

24 minutes ago, Real World Hunter said:

Yup and that private land is now worth $1000;s more in lease because of all the great hunting

Bit of a tangent, but would you recommend private hunting land adjacent to public hunting land as an investment?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 minute ago, goosifer said:

Bit of a tangent, but would you recommend private hunting land adjacent to public hunting land as an investment?

Just a Fact.   Just what i did a couple years ago. Any land is an investment that will rise in value but to buy land that borders the right state land is a big time investment be it for hunting or future profit after sale.

[dbHunterNY]

22 minutes ago, goosifer said:

That's a great point. I wonder if there are any nationwide conservation groups that have done any studies evaluating how NY DEC handles deer compared to neighboring states. I know different states have different issues, but there has to be some way to evaluate the NYS DEC and hold them accountable.

https://www.qdma.com/about/whitetail-reports/

...yup.

[goosifer]

3 minutes ago, Real World Hunter said:

Just a Fact.   Just what i did a couple years ago. Any land is an investment that will rise in value but to buy land that borders the right state land is a big time investment be it for hunting or future profit after sale.

My interest in this subject, and your thoughts on it, are sincere. I noted you said the "right" state land. If we started a thread on this subject (maybe there is an existing one?), would you be willing to share your thoughts on the subject?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

3 minutes ago, goosifer said:

My interest in this subject, and your thoughts on it, are sincere. I noted you said the "right" state land. If we started a thread on this subject (maybe there is an existing one?), would you be willing to share your thoughts on the subject?

Cant believe you would get much interest but you know me....Always give my thoughts. lol

[gjs4]

i mentioned this a little and in another thread as well. But yes cultural change is a def issue these days.  I remember those days as well of no one being at school on the gun opener and always taking the first day of trout off.  It was always funny cause in high school they started giving me a hard time about not having a written excuse.  Even the NFL is on a decline for the same reasons (among others) . Change will hapen whether we like it or not and there are so many more options these days for younger people .  The world has gotten a lot smaller with the internet and a whole lot bigger for people at the same time.  

I think a few posts here mentioned it....

Good points regardless


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[DirtTime]

You people miss the point! The future of hunting AND the Second Amendment depends on you! They are tied together in case you don't get that!

I have converted around 20 people who thought the AR style rifles were "EVIL", I have converted 10 people who used to think hunting was "Barbaric". I haven't convinced those people to go hunting yet, but I am doing my best!

 

Most of you bitch and complain about the "Future" of hunting, but you don't do shit to preserve it! Get rallies going! Do something! They have anti-gun and anti-hunting rallies, so hunters and gun owners should do the same!

 

Motto for deer hunting is "You can't kill a deer from your couch!". Well, you can't save or preserve deer hunting, or hunting in general, or the 2nd Amendment, from your couch either.