Antler restriction

[zoschag08]

How does the age of the bucks negatively affect the heard health? I can see the buck to doe ratio doing that but not the age of the bucks.

https://www.qdma.com/mature-bucks-needs-em/

 

This article can explain it way better than I would be able to. I know parts of it aren't as applicable in northern states but the overall concept of young bucks exerting too much energy during the rut is huge.

 

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[Culvercreek hunt club]

https://www.qdma.com/mature-bucks-needs-em/ 
This article can explain it way better than I would be able to. I know parts of it aren't as applicable in northern states but the overall concept of young bucks exerting too much energy during the rut is huge.
 
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Oh I am very familiar with that article. I don’t agree with one it’s major points. That with more mature bucks he yearlings will focus on eating and building fat and enter the winter healthier. It is a leap in my opinion to assert that. Just because the mature bucks if present will be breeding it sure doesn’t stop the yearling from searching and searching for a receptive Doe. They don’t have the intelligence to make the determination that since their chances to breed are low they should just pack it in and just start feeding instead. Trust me I know how much more exciting a fall woods can be when the buck to for ration is closer and there are more mature bucks. I am just not convinced that there is a “health benefit” of it. Even some of the point in the article are states and then go on it say there isn’t definitive proof.

[zoschag08]

Oh I am very familiar with that article. I don’t agree with one it’s major points. That with more mature bucks he yearlings will focus on eating and building fat and enter the winter healthier. It is a leap in my opinion to assert that. Just because the mature bucks if present will be breeding it sure doesn’t stop the yearling from searching and searching for a receptive Doe. They don’t have the intelligence to make the determination that since their chances to breed are low they should just pack it in and just start feeding instead. Trust me I know how much more exciting a fall woods can be when the buck to for ration is closer and there are more mature bucks. I am just not convinced that there is a “health benefit” of it. Even some of the point in the article are states and then go on it say there isn’t definitive proof.

I think you're taking what it says too literally. If there are more mature bucks then the rut won't last as long allowing the younger bucks to spend less time seeking. This also allows for the proper birthing times to occur, thus longer growing times before fall, and healthier fawns going into the winter. I understand how these things could be considered a stretch but it makes a ton of sense also.

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[nybuckboy]

On 11/21/2018 at 3:17 PM, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Have you done anything on the property like plots or habitat management?

Yes I have some food plots but not really a lot... maybe 2 total acres.

[G-Man]

On 11/17/2018 at 6:30 PM, Fredbear2 said:

Ny really need to put antler restrictions into place . Hate seeing young bucks being killed that you pass on and other people kill opening day of gun . Ny bucks are not ever going to have record potential with this crap going on . Ny put it into place so future generations hunters can have great ny state bucks. 

Have you seen some of the deer taken this year? In non. Ar areas???  Its not needed. Great bucks are taken every year. Older deer are not easy to kill. The push for ars removes many opportunities for hunters to develop skill needed in tracking ,bullet / arrow placement. Tracking, still hunting, stand set up / location. 

I would not be the hunter I am with out the numerous harvest I have had of small bucks. At a point an individual may want a larger older buck but that is his own choice .no one imo has the right to ask for antler restrictions unless they have only harvested 120 in plus bucks their entire life....

[G-Man]

On 11/22/2018 at 8:44 PM, zoschag08 said:

I think you're taking what it says too literally. If there are more mature bucks then the rut won't last as long allowing the younger bucks to spend less time seeking. This also allows for the proper birthing times to occur, thus longer growing times before fall, and healthier fawns going into the winter. I understand how these things could be considered a stretch but it makes a ton of sense also.

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In fact more mature bucks leads to broken racks  goring of rivals and in fact exhaustion many times resulting in death of said animal as competition for doe is fierce.  Proper herd management is the key not focusing on bucks.. mature bucks are not needed to breed. As for length of rut.. doe population is more important. 

[G-Man]

On 11/18/2018 at 9:30 PM, JimboCNY said:

So then you only shoot spikes and let the big ones go right?   

I would much rather see a spike shot for meat than a nice 1.5 year old 6 ,7,8,9,10pt.

[chas0218]

Have you seen some of the deer taken this year? In non. Ar areas???  Its not needed. Great bucks are taken every year. Older deer are not easy to kill. The push for ars removes many opportunities for hunters to develop skill needed in tracking ,bullet / arrow placement. Tracking, still hunting, stand set up / location. 

I would not be the hunter I am with out the numerous harvest I have had of small bucks. At a point an individual may want a larger older buck but that is his own choice .no one imo has the right to ask for antler restrictions unless they have only harvested 120 in plus bucks their entire life....

You realize those taking the big deer this year like other years are the ones managing properties not shooting skippys?

 

My sister shot this on our property that we pass deer 3.5 years old. Guess what we practice AR. This was actually a cull deer that is a 4.5 year old 8 point. We dont shoot 8 points but he has been an 8 point since he was 2.5. I have a few other pictures somewhere, but I'm not in any pissing match. They work end of story, she yeilded 62lbs of meat from this 140lbs. dressed buck. He was rutting hard and no fat except a little above this tail.

 

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[dbHunterNY]

On 11/24/2018 at 8:35 AM, G-Man said:

I would much rather see a spike shot for meat than a nice 1.5 year old 6 ,7,8,9,10pt.

show me a 9 or 10 pt yearling and you're showing me a buck that won't make it past 2.5 yrs old about anywhere in the state. antler restrictions or not it doesn't matter. any buck that's toward the top of it's age class runs the gauntlet. there was an outfitter that had a 2.5 or 3.5 yr old 14 pt out in Oklahoma that i hunted with. he pleaded and showed one of his close clients who he trusts in hopes it wouldn't get shot. guess what buck fell on the 2nd day of the hunt? lol

[dbHunterNY]

On 11/22/2018 at 8:32 PM, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Oh I am very familiar with that article. I don’t agree with one it’s major points. That with more mature bucks he yearlings will focus on eating and building fat and enter the winter healthier. It is a leap in my opinion to assert that. Just because the mature bucks if present will be breeding it sure doesn’t stop the yearling from searching and searching for a receptive Doe. They don’t have the intelligence to make the determination that since their chances to breed are low they should just pack it in and just start feeding instead. Trust me I know how much more exciting a fall woods can be when the buck to for ration is closer and there are more mature bucks. I am just not convinced that there is a “health benefit” of it. Even some of the point in the article are states and then go on it say there isn’t definitive proof.

i rode out to green lakes state park with Matt Ross for the DEC meeting few years back.  didn't get into it in lots of detail but he did say buck age structure was important maybe more so than ratio which constantly works to correct itself in a hurry. i don't believe it was for that reason you mentioned though. i agree a young buck will run around stupid whether it's getting some or not. young bucks breed more based on numbers and opportunity. bucks with more age help set the tone and trend of activity for a naturally regulated rut. i think they're also more efficient at finding the earlier and later doe during the rut which has to work against anything causing a trickle rut/breeding. i'm sure there's probably other reasons but i'm not a biologist.

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, chas0218 said:

You realize those taking the big deer this year like other years are the ones managing properties not shooting skippys?

 

My sister shot this on our property that we pass deer 3.5 years old. Guess what we practice AR. This was actually a cull deer that is a 4.5 year old 8 point. We dont shoot 8 points but he has been an 8 point since he was 2.5. I have a few other pictures somewhere, but I'm not in any pissing match. They work end of story, she yeilded 62lbs of meat from this 140lbs. dressed buck. He was rutting hard and no fat except a little above this tail.

 

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Yet you do so voluntarily.. that is my point many people are doing it it should.not be mandated. I do the same on my place but I always let the hunters decide for themselves..perhaps they have limited time to hunt this year.. or a new older hunter,or a new young hunter.. I do not need this state telling me what I can or not shoot.. they try and.manage multiple towns 100 sq miles.. I know what my.property needs and can handle they dont.. if they want them.on state land so be it. Its the states. The deer I pass on my place are shot on neighbors every.year.but they seem to be waiting for one of the big ones to leave may.place as well thus passing up bucks that are never on my place improving the herd there as well.. it's not needed mandatory  as it is working with out voluntarily.. as you yourself have done

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[nyslowhand]

8 hours ago, G-Man said:

Yet you do so voluntarily.. that is my point many people are doing it it should.not be mandated. ....... I know what my.property needs and can handle they dont........ The deer I pass on my place are shot on neighbors every.year.but they seem to be waiting for one of the big ones to leave may.place as well thus passing up bucks that are never on my place improving the herd there as well..

My opinion on AR, exactly!!! Micro-manage your own area, to the best of your ability. Do NOT worry about what's going on in adjacent properties! Shoot what you can tag and live with the results of your management efforts. If neighbors agree to participate in similar voluntary restrictions, even better. Possibly even bend your own restriction for special circumstances, ie; a youth, 1st timer, elderly or a physically challenged hunter.

Never will understand why the DEC caved-in to public pressure to implement ARs in certain areas..!??! Squeaky wheel syndrome.

Edited December 18, 2018 by nyslowhand

[The_Real_TCIII]

I’ve always hated the idea of telling a hunter that maybe only gets a few days to hunt that there are certain deer they aren’t allowed to shoot just because I want to kill them next year. I also hate run on sentences


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[dbHunterNY]

12 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

My opinion on AR, exactly!!! Micro-manage your own area, to the best of your ability. Do NOT worry about what's going on in adjacent properties! Shoot what you can tag and live with the results of your management efforts. If neighbors agree to participate in similar voluntary restrictions, even better. Possibly even bend your own restriction for special circumstances, ie; a youth, 1st timer, elderly or a physically challenged hunter.

Never will understand why the DEC caved-in to public pressure to implement ARs in certain areas..!??! Squeaky wheel syndrome.

They didn't exactly cave. Appealing to the public is a major concern for them. some of it was beyond their control it was legislated. others were pilot areas. they even followed up with a survey to know hunters thoughts. not everyone got what they expected but "A majority of hunters in the pilot AR units prefer that the program continue."  what i don't understand is them not following up again with a survey to track hunter satisfaction. antler restrictions shouldn't be a set it and forget it thing. they're supposed to be monitored like any other management tool. except for the buck fixing around staten island. that should be set to off, forgotten, and all the people involved making stupid sums of money should be sued to get some of that tax money back.

[farmhunter]

On 11/20/2018 at 9:10 PM, nybuckboy said:

I can verify that if you have the land and many of your neighbors share the same concept... we can grow respectable racks in NY.  I moved here in May of 2014 and have just under 100 acres. The neighbors to the North have about 200 plus the 150 acres to the East is not hunted hard. The neighbors to the West now are a different story.  Fortunately they are not people who hunt much but they are brown it's down hunters.  My (*) neighbors to the South who moved here in 2017 do not hunt and have 21 acres and do not allow hunting.

Prior to owning the land, which we live on, my prior (*) south neighbors claimed to have killed 14 deer on the hilltop and they were meat hunters so I can only imagine they killed many each year. They moved in 2016. 

The first year in 2014, I had nothing but spikes and 4 pts.  The 2015 not much better but in 2016 I had 3 small 8 pts and various other smaller bucks.  I killed a really wide 6 pt with my bow.  In 2017 two of those 8 pts were killed by my son and I during gun season.  In all honesty we should have let them grow another year. This year was the best by far.  I had 6 nice bucks - all were 8 pts and a nice 10 pt.  2 of the 8's and the 10 were all NY State shooters.

It does work if you're willing to maybe take a doe or two and occasionally a buck for meat.  I'm already looking forward to next year to see whats in store.

well said - for us its very similar - gets a little better one year - takes a step back the next.  

Similar to you - 4 like-minded neighbors control almost a square mile - (640 acres) - none of us are trophy hunters - but like the idea of seeing more bucks in that next age class.   some of our guests are not choosy and we can live with that.  A few of the those 2.5 and 3.5 make it through and more than ever before - we have a real shot at a buck of a lifetime . Just knowing a significant buck around - can change the enthusiasm in camp.   This year for us was a disappointment - just two older bucks taken, and not a lot of shooter bucks seen.  It was evident last winter that very few 2.5 yr olds made it through -and the 1.5s that did were few and far.  weather in March was a killer I'm afraid - but mostly - neighbors really put a hurting on the bucks in fall 2017.  Some of the ones that made it through didn't add much to theoir body size or antlers.  This year - a ton of 1.5s around after season - and several 2.5 still kicking - hoping winter is manageable.

Does eat well, and most everyone in our group these days has that in mind - We basically have Self imposed ARs as a result.  

 

 

[Doc]

I can remember when many hunters thought shooting a doe was some kind of shameful thing. I'm awful glad that the state didn't decide to go back to "buck only". There has always been some sort of elitism within the hunting ranks. If you do happen to get one of the huge bucks that really are out there already, it will truly be a real trophy that means something, not something made less notable that was made easier to get through management manipulation.