Xbow full inclusion??

[Doc]

It seems that every year I hear the gunners complaining more and more loudly about the quality and quantity of big bucks that are frequently being taken in a supposedly "more primitive" special bow season. I also have noted that there are more and more gunners asking why there even are any special seasons that they are excluded from. The bow equipment changes over the decades have evolved to the point where some of that talk may actually be warranted. There are a lot of people being kept out of a desirable part of the hunting season with ever-diminishing justification, and it is beginning to catch the attention of the gun hunting community. Perhaps the bow season is just a cobbled up excuse to get the gun hunters out of our way so we can have access to a much more pleasant time of the year. But now we start including weapons that don't even slightly resemble the primitive weapon that the season was initially designed for.

But we say "What's wrong with adding weapons that are easier to shoot? Doesn't that mean fewer wounded deer". And by golly that is a true point crossbows are way more efficient and accurate and require nearly nothing to become proficient. So I guess that is intended to imply that conventional archery is inadequate or inhumane and needs less challenging weapons in the name of being humane. But it doesn't stop there. Now there are people coming along suggesting that adding just one more little feature like pneumatics would help ensure real humane kills even a bit more. You know there really is no end to the justification of cramming all kinds of weapons into bow season. I have no idea of what comes after that...... maybe inserting more muzzleloader options into bow seasons. That's not an idea that I never hear. I'll bet there are plenty of dandy rationalizations that can be made for that too. If you have a weapon that you want to see included in bow seasons, there are all kinds of made-up reasons for doing so.

So now when I hear people beginning to talk about getting rid of special seasons (bow season in particular), I am beginning to understand where all that is coming from. I may not agree with it, but I am understanding exactly where that is all coming from. We are working our way out of having any bona-fide reason to hang on to our hard-fought-for bow season. And eventually there will be plenty of gun hunters that will be supporting that idea. So as we continue to fiddle with what weapons can go into bow seasons, maybe we should be looking at where this is all going.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Doc

[chrisw]

To put it simply and quickly. I still am anti crossbow for the most part, however I would be all for an age clause, something like 55 and older can use crossbows through the entire archery season and also those that have disabilities. I guess in my eyes I see all of the new recruits into archery season immediately looking at crossbows for the obvious advantages even though some will foolishly argue there aren't any. I would like to see vertical bows, as advanced as they've become ( I know it's not traditional) still be the mainstay in our archery season. Sodfather put it best, man up and pull the string. I know several people personally who were just fine bowhunting and now suddenly their little shoulders hurt and the crossbow is the only way for them to bowhunt now... Please...

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[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, Storm914 said:

https://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html

It's a lot 

You just proved Biz right...

[WNYBuckHunter]

21 minutes ago, chrisw said:

To put it simply and quickly. I still am anti crossbow for the most part, however I would be all for an age clause, something like 55 and older can use crossbows through the entire archery season and also those that have disabilities. I guess in my eyes I see all of the new recruits into archery season immediately looking at crossbows for the obvious advantages even though some will foolishly argue there aren't any. I would like to see vertical bows, as advanced as they've become ( I know it's not traditional) still be the mainstay in our archery season. Sodfather put it best, man up and pull the string. I know several people personally who were just fine bowhunting and now suddenly their little shoulders hurt and the crossbow is the only way for them to bowhunt now... Please...

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But why do you care what type of archery equipment anyone else uses? How would it affect your hunting? Why would full inclusion be a bad thing?

Also, NYS starts kids out ass backwards. They put the toughest hunting implement in their hands first, so most kids end up with at least 2 years of eating tags if they start right away. How in the hell does that make sense? You wonder why so many kids dont stick with it, well, that right there is part of it. We need to be doing things to up new hunter recruitment, not puff our chests out like a bunch of wanna be Billy bad asses. Keep on doing that crap, and eventually there wont be any more hunting.

[Five Seasons]

15 hours ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:

Point being that most won't whine about shit like you and would have no problem supporting things that may save the sport in this state. On a side note. is?

 

you think kicking bowhunters out of the rut will save the sport? 

[Five Seasons]

15 hours ago, Biz-R-OWorld said:

I don’t understand why people care if Xbow gets full inclusion? Especially if you hunt Private Land, you can still hunt however you want so who cares how other people hunt? Many states have had full inclusion for years. Ohio, PA, NJ, CT, etc.


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it's been mentioned a few bazillion times why people care. While I'm not in the public land business, I will add that for those that are, it does not provide a level playing field for archers vs the crossbow. Therefore decreasing the odds of an already tough to kill animal. 

[Five Seasons]

14 hours ago, wolc123 said:

 Those fall wild-hen turkey drumsticks were excellent.     

Not just any old antlerless deer, but what may be a record-sized button buck based

 

this guy here. shoots hens and bb's. man... I feel like if we went fishing you'd catch the limit just because you could, not because you needed to.

[bugsNbows]

Four words... to each his own!

[Five Seasons]

11 hours ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

If it’s money they need then triple the cost of a license but spend the money back on conservation. Done. We pay less than the cost of a round of golf to hunt and fish for an entire year


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many of us wont bat an eye, but there is a careful line to balance here. As is a full "sportsman" and dmp's is almost $100. We want hunting to be accessible to all. Plenty of rural and poverty stricken areas where folks are feeding their families on wild game using their grandpas old rifle and the same wool jacket and pants they had in their 20's.

If ya'll really want to give back, there's nothing stopping you from buying a subscription to the conservation magazine, designer license plates that fund conservation or just straight up donating. 

[Jeremy K]

Gun hunters complain that archery equipment has gotten too good over the years ? Was the guy who said that holding AR 10 with a scope on it ? Gun technology has advanced way more then archery equipment. 

[Buckmaster7600]

I like it the way it is, I like looking forward to being able to use something different.

Xbow gets the best 2 weeks, it should be easier for someone who can’t draw a bow to be able to use Xbow year round.

Really it doesn’t matter I see guys going into and out of the woods carrying their Xbows during bow season all the time. The truth is a lot of people don’t give a crap about the laws and use what they want. Hell 2 of my Xbows are too narrow and ones draw is too heavy for the stupid NY laws.


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[Five Seasons]

25 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

You just proved Biz right...

i'd love to see the hunter per capita numbers too. And somehow (while I know there are many city hunters) removing the 5 bureaus from the equation. the state's pop has been steadily shrinking north of the hudson. I wonder really if you did that analysis, how many less hunters per capita we have. I bet it's not as dire as some think.

[chrisw]

But why do you care what type of archery equipment anyone else uses? How would it affect your hunting? Why would full inclusion be a bad thing?
Also, NYS starts kids out ass backwards. They put the toughest hunting implement in their hands first, so most kids end up with at least 2 years of eating tags if they start right away. How in the hell does that make sense? You wonder why so many kids dont stick with it, well, that right there is part of it. We need to be doing things to up new hunter recruitment, not puff our chests out like a bunch of wanna be Billy bad asses. Keep on doing that crap, and eventually there wont be any more hunting.

I care because I'd like to see a shred of actual archery equipment still in archery season 20 years from now. And perhaps if you hunted strictly public land you would see more of an effect as I do. When does the "let's keep making hunting easier" stop? Archery hunters like the challenge for the most part, that's what is alluring. And I won't sit here for a second and pretend I'm not a bit selfish either, I want low pressure, un spooked deer to hunt on public land and small numbers of hunters on the lands I hunt during archery. How much public land do you bowhunt? Do you drive an hour each way to hunt public land? How many opportunities do you get at decent bucks every year? It's easy to try to make rules for someone that isn't in your position, I get it. I hunt my ass off every fall for weeks on end to get my public land deer. Since crossbow became a legal implement, my favorite spot to hunt has become as busy as anywhere else during archery. It's a bow only state park, and yes I talk to a lot of hunters there and the cliche that a good chunk of the guys toting crossbows are the chainsmoking, wandering, deer wounding type has some great truth to it. Why?? Because they are not bowhunters. Believe any of this or not I truly do not care, I know the spot I've hunted for 10 years. You seem to keep saying that kids won't start bowhunting unless we give them crossbows? You're concerned that without immediate success that they'll become disinterested? I say tough, bowhunting is hard, it's supposed to be. You don't find success? Try harder, hunt longer, practice more. Instead children should be taught the value of not giving up, hard work, and being relentless in the pursuit, not handed a trophy just because.

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

you think kicking bowhunters out of the rut will save the sport? 

So your not happy sharing the woods during bow with the Xbow hunters and you would be pissed if they continue to get the best time to hunt? Sounds like you may want to get 1000acres like some of us and just hunt any way you want during whatever season. And the point of the hunters numbers is that post shows how many in the state that have been lost over the last couple years and even after the big drop last year they were bitching that the numbers were down already and we were only half way thru the season? Cash is Cash regardless where it comes from in their eyes. They will do something to counter the dropping hunter numbers and the cash they took with them. That's not to even talk about the numbers of deer now not getting taken.


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

I care because I'd like to see a shred of actual archery equipment still in archery season 20 years from now. And perhaps if you hunted strictly public land you would see more of an effect as I do. When does the "let's keep making hunting easier" stop? Archery hunters like the challenge for the most part, that's what is alluring. And I won't sit here for a second and pretend I'm not a bit selfish either, I want low pressure, un spooked deer to hunt on public land and small numbers of hunters on the lands I hunt during archery. How much public land do you bowhunt? Do you drive an hour each way to hunt public land? How many opportunities do you get at decent bucks every year? It's easy to try to make rules for someone that isn't in your position, I get it. I hunt my ass off every fall for weeks on end to get my public land deer. Since crossbow became a legal implement, my favorite spot to hunt has become as busy as anywhere else during archery. It's a bow only state park, and yes I talk to a lot of hunters there and the cliche that a good chunk of the guys toting crossbows are the chainsmoking, wandering, deer wounding type has some great truth to it. Why?? Because they are not bowhunters. Believe any of this or not I truly do not care, I know the spot I've hunted for 10 years. You seem to keep saying that kids won't start bowhunting unless we give them crossbows? You're concerned that without immediate success that they'll become disinterested? I say tough, bowhunting is hard, it's supposed to be. You don't find success? Try harder, hunt longer, practice more. Instead children should be taught the value of not giving up, hard work, and being relentless in the pursuit, not handed a trophy just because.

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You do realize what you just said could be said for yourself and others that find it hard to hunt land with other hunters on it. Work harder , Hunt smarter. And yes many of us do hunt with plenty of hunters on state land driving 3 hours one way and take only mature bucks off those lands. It kinda works both ways but at the end of the day losing hunter numbers now will only give you no bow hunting in 20 years let alone any other hunting. Bow will be the first to go because it is the hardest and they will want deer killed...not just hunted.


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[chrisw]

So your not happy sharing the woods during bow with the Xbow hunters and you would be pissed if they continue to get the best time to hunt? Sounds like you may want to get 1000acres like some of us and just hunt any way you want during whatever season. And the point of the hunters numbers is that post shows how many in the state that have been lost over the last couple years and even after the big drop last year they were bitching that the numbers were down already and we were only half way thru the season? Cash is Cash regardless where it comes from in their eyes. They will do something to counter the dropping hunter numbers and the cash they took with them. That's not to even talk about the numbers of deer now not getting taken.


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So buying 1000 acres and hunt with whatever you want regardless of season is your solution? I think that about sums up your usefulness in this topic.

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

So buying 1000 acres and hunt with whatever you want regardless of season is your solution? I think that about sums up your usefulness in this topic.

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Yeah that just what the guys that whine about other hunters in the woods ruining their hunting need. That way you guys can play in your own little dream world while the rest of the real hunters and sportsmen that really care about the future work on saving a failing sport. Really it's not that hard to go in and kill the baby bucks with any implement regardless of how many hunters are in the woods.


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[Doc]

24 minutes ago, chrisw said:

When does the "let's keep making hunting easier" stop?

It doesn't.  For most, hunting is intended to be an easy activity, apparently. It seems to be human nature to remove any and all obstacles and challenges in hunting by using the least amount of time and effort and letting technology to do as much of the hunting for us as possible. The history and evolution of NYS Bowhunting is the best example of that, for those that care to look at it. It is all just a sign of the times.

[WNYBuckHunter]

27 minutes ago, chrisw said:

I care because I'd like to see a shred of actual archery equipment still in archery season 20 years from now. And perhaps if you hunted strictly public land you would see more of an effect as I do. When does the "let's keep making hunting easier" stop? Archery hunters like the challenge for the most part, that's what is alluring. And I won't sit here for a second and pretend I'm not a bit selfish either, I want low pressure, un spooked deer to hunt on public land and small numbers of hunters on the lands I hunt during archery. How much public land do you bowhunt? Do you drive an hour each way to hunt public land? How many opportunities do you get at decent bucks every year? It's easy to try to make rules for someone that isn't in your position, I get it. I hunt my ass off every fall for weeks on end to get my public land deer. Since crossbow became a legal implement, my favorite spot to hunt has become as busy as anywhere else during archery. It's a bow only state park, and yes I talk to a lot of hunters there and the cliche that a good chunk of the guys toting crossbows are the chainsmoking, wandering, deer wounding type has some great truth to it. Why?? Because they are not bowhunters. Believe any of this or not I truly do not care, I know the spot I've hunted for 10 years. You seem to keep saying that kids won't start bowhunting unless we give them crossbows? You're concerned that without immediate success that they'll become disinterested? I say tough, bowhunting is hard, it's supposed to be. You don't find success? Try harder, hunt longer, practice more. Instead children should be taught the value of not giving up, hard work, and being relentless in the pursuit, not handed a trophy just because.

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So just so you know, the vast majority of private land that I hunt is just as pressured, or even more pressured than any state land I have ever hunted during bow season. I have alot of experience hunting multiple tracts of state land, during all seasons. We have alot of guys that have permission to hunt the farms that I do. We have small game hunters, guys that run coon hounds at night, the landowners walking the property and riding horses, multiple groups of hunters that dont stick to any game plan, farmers working the fields, etc. Most private land that I have had experience with, isnt all that some people make it out to be. If you arent a good hunter on these places, you arent going to be successful. I usually get a few cracks at decent bucks each year, but Im in the minority at those farms. Most of the guys dont see them, and if they do, its from a long ways off. Why? Because I put the time and work in. Does that make me any better than anyone else hunting there? Nope. Do I get pissed if one of the other guys ends up shooting a buck that Im after? Nope. Has that happened? Multiple times, and most of those have not been due to those guys putting in the time and work that I do. We also have people that are new to hunting, and make lots of mistakes, and previous gun only people that are now toting crossbows around the place. Ive seen two different things happen so far with crossbows, either people new to archery hunting improve their skills and become better hunters, or they say the hell with it and go back to gun only because of their lack of success.

As far as kids go, thats not at all what I said. Go back and re-read it. Your "tough" sentiment is that kind that has been portrayed for decades, and where has it gotten us? Hunter numbers are in decline, and have been for some time now. Do you honestly think that putting a crossbow in someones hands is going to guarantee them a deer? You really think that the successful crossbow folks work any less at getting within 40 yards of a deer than you do? If you do, you are being ignorant about it. Do you have kids? If so, how old are they, and do they hunt?

[Doc]

43 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:

.......Sounds like you may want to get 1000acres like some of us and just hunt any way you want during whatever season.

There is a lot of that going on these days. More and more movement toward making hunting something that only the moneyed people can  or want to participate in.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

It doesn't.  For most, hunting is intended to be an easy activity, apparently. It seems to be human nature to remove any and all obstacles and challenges in hunting by using the least amount of time and effort and letting technology to do as much of the hunting for us as possible. The history and evolution of NYS Bowhunting is the best example of that, for those that care to look at it. It is all just a sign of the times.

Which falls right in line with cam's that send you a text of a deer standing in front of your stand or the rifle that will kill for ya out at 6-700 yards. There is only 2 things the states want in most cases. Cash from hunters and the right amount of deer killed by hunters. They will do what it takes to get them both done or will find a way for the 2nd without hunters involved.


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

There is a lot of that going on these days. More and more movement toward making hunting something that only the moneyed people can  or want to participate in.

True That. And don't forget the fences. 5 years ago my sales went mostly to other farms or high fence hunting ranches and now I can't raise enough every year to supply the private 1500-2000 acre high fence rich mans playground. They are getting tired of dealing with the state, other hunters and not having any bigger deer on their properties for one reason or another. Great for me but showing a changing pattern for sure.


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[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:

Which falls right in line with cam's that send you a text of a deer standing in front of your stand or the rifle that will kill for ya out at 6-700 yards. There is only 2 things the states want in most cases. Cash from hunters and the right amount of deer killed by hunters. They will do what it takes to get them both done or will find a way for the 2nd without hunters involved.

The examples would fill an encyclopedia.....lol. I have watched bow season in particular go from a mere bent stick and string to wild-looking compound bows that look like something from a Star Wars movie and now super-performance crossbows, being followed by talk about archery season pneumatic air bows. What's next? The movement is as predictable as any study of human activity. Tradition?....challenge?.....These are all passé things of the past that no one values anymore. None of that has any place in hunting these days.

[WNYBuckHunter]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

The examples would fill an encyclopedia.....lol. I have watched bow season in particular go from a mere bent stick and string to wild-looking compound bows that look like something from a Star Wars movie and now super-performance crossbows, being followed by talk about archery season pneumatic air bows. What's next? The movement is as predictable as any study of human activity. Tradition?....challenge?.....These are all passé things of the past that no one values anymore. None of that has any place in hunting these days.

But did most people ever truly value that stuff? Back in the day, they were using what equipment was the latest and greatest at that time.

[nodeerhere]

Crossbows don't belong during archery season! And that's all I'm going to say! Every single person on here knows why!