Tolerance and understanding....

[sits in trees]

well i was walking along the road which skirts my property and there was my nieghbor Moe cruising along very slowely on the other side of the road with binos looking out the open passanger window of his PU truck. he didnt see me at first but then he did when i was just about across from him and i gave him a big wave and he stopped.

i walked over to chew the fat for a minute or 30 and there was Moe in his hunting suit, binos in lap and rifle laying up on the seat next to him, yea he was road hunting. at first he looked at me alittle sheepish but i knew what he was doing right off the bat and he just says to me, yea im looking to take something from the road and i quickly replied good for you.

you see Moe is in his mid 70s and arthitis have done a pretty good job of eating his hip joints away, he is a life long hunter and good fella.

other hunters might have givin him the cold shoulder or even went as far as reporting him but i took this opportunity to wish him luck and tell him where i have been seeing deer move up the road, i wished him luck, shook his hand and told him to call me if he nails one so i can help him get it out.

as hunters we tend to wanna run with this rule of holding everyone else to a higher standard than even themselves. this is a trait i detest most in our community and we should all just stop it.

it seems to blossom most here on hunting forums where if your not hunting with a recurve your weak, if your not hunting with a vert bow that shoots 350 fps with all the latest gadjits your weak, if your not hunting with a primative muzzle gun your weak.

its old and tired and most people dont listen to it anyway, so maybe its time to give it up fellas, you know who you are.

[nyantler]

Sometimes I think we as hunters and people need to know when it's time to "give it up"... the fact that he is a good guy doesn't excuse illegal action... nobody is above the law or the rules... we will all reach the point someday if we live long enough where we need to realize that we just have to hang the gun up and accept that we aren't able to hunt... that doesn't mean we can't stop by and offer up some venison to the old timer.. or offer to take him to one of those heated huts for a day of legal hunting...... life isn't fair.. but it isn't fair for everyone. I'm sure some of the handicapped hunters I know would have a problem with it.. seeing how they have spent their entire hunting life finding ways to hunt legally with the help of others. There is much more you can do than just allow someone to do something that is not legal

Just wondering how he guts and drags the deer out with his disabilty? Does he have to get someone else to help? Putting them in a position where they are doing something illegal as well? Are you ok with putting yourself in a position where you could lose your hunting priviledges by offering to help him do something illegal.. Just something to think about... you'd be better off just bringing him some venison.. or helping him get in the woods some other way.. if you feel that strongly about it.

A hunters weapon of choice and how you feel about why they hunt with that weapon has no bearing on this subject.. seeing how they are doing it legally... the fact that it made you feel good to wish the guy luck also has no bearing on the fact that what the nice gentleman was doing is illegal.. you don't have to like it... it just is what it is.

Edited December 11, 2011 by nyantler

[arrow nocker]

I woulda citizen arrested him and draged his no good road hunting axx outa the truck and put him face first in the dirt!

Nah dude just kidding.I wouldn't even care.Just tell hime to use his quad next time.I would say well over half of the memebers here would shoot a deer from their quad if they had the chance.If there was a huge buck in front of them when they were on it i bet they wouldn't pass up the opportunity.They will say otherwise though.just to keep their internet reputation of "the most ehical hunter out there".

[jusputtn]

I expect your right SIT, this will likely generate several pages of "discussion". I expect Moe could adjust his methods a little and remain legal. Site from the truck, park down the road a bit & then stalk back. Or pick a site for a ground blind that he could drive close to.

[NFA-ADK]

OK I understand your point of view as a nieghbor but as a hunter i don't get it. He is hunting illegaly and should find another method. He is the type of person the dec are going after,

1) He has a loaded weapon while driving

2) He is road hunting

3) Picture this: A monster buck comes out, he shoots it from the truck then can't get it out of the woods, when he gets help people question how he got the deer then instead of being a great hunter who took a really nice deer he is a poacher with no respect.

It's called ethics plain and simple. Hunting from a vehecle is unethical...

The fact that he is disabled has no bearing on the matter, if he lives in the area he hunts and can not find deer he is a bad hunter. If he can not walk in the woods how is he going to get a deer out? Im sorry but I disagree with you, some people need to understand when deer hunting is over. If you are disabled you have alternatives but to poach and thats what he is doing is wrong. Why not offer him a spotlight and the exact spot the doe come out every day nice story to tell the kids. "O yea I nailed that 10 pointer from the chevy at 8:45 pm tough drag that 50 ft to the truck..." But yea tell him where they come out, why not you don't want those deer around anyway. I don't think I would report a nieghbor but road hunting = poaching in my book... Any yea people might say one thing on the internet and do another but I feel the majority of hunters are ethical. For me hunting is about the chase and to chase with vehecle is well lame...

[GreeneHunter]

Road Hunting ..... Never an excuse for that !

[ncountry]

On one hand, I do not agree with or like to see anybody hunting from a vehicle.On the other hand , what is the old guy hurting.I am sure if he got a deer he would either get it himself of call a nonjudgmental friend or family member to help him out. I would assume it is not a highly populated area and on his own land or land that he has permission to hunt. If he can be successful ,good for him. I am sure that all of us never drive over 55 or would not even dream of shooting that buck standing 50 yds away at 4:35 when sunset was at 4:34.

[wooly]

Good post sits in trees- I can relate. I brought up in another post about an old timer I saw hunting with a x-bow durring archery season. I know and he knew he didn't have a disabled permit but there was no need to even bring it up. He's one of the "good ol' boys" from around town that would do anything for anybody...even let total strangers hunt his propperty knowing full well that may just come back to bite him in the rear one day.

It's easy for me to put the blinders on when it comes to the way he chooses to persue game on his land. We talked about the hot spots and he was on his way. He hunts his way and I hunt mine as different as they are, I can accept the fact that he's taking nothing away from MY experiences in the outdoors and I almost feel as if I'm giving something back by looking the other way.

[Doc]

My Grandfather eventually came to the point where he had to give up hunting because of failing health, strength and endurance. My father also found a time when hunting was no longer something that he had the stamina for. Both had hunted in an honorable and legal fashion all their lives, a fact of which they were both proud. Neither ever once entertained the thought of breaking the law to accomodate their infirmities. I am not all that far from that point in my life, and I also intend to finish out my years in a legal and honorable fashion. Hunting has always been a strong family tradition and a large part of our lives. Another strong family tradition has been a respect for game laws. For me it would kill me to have my name dragged through the newspapers because of finishing off my years of hunting with illegal acts. It certainly would taint all years of hunting that I have done and cast a shadow on any accomplishments that I have achieved over my lifetime. That's not a way that I want to go out.

I am not really the kind that would blow-in my neighbor, but there is no way I would shake his hand and encourage him to continue hunting in an illegal fashion either. I can understand some people thinking they are doing this guy a favor by encouraging him, but I have to wonder if he would like to finish out his days with an arrest and public humiliation. How great a favor would that be to set him up for because sure as hell, the violations he was commiting are certainly not all that hard for a CO to detect, apprehend and prosecute.

Given the opportunity of Monday morning quarter-backing, I would have encouraged him to think about what he is doing, and as others have suggested, I could do him a real favor by offering to assist him in pursuing legal hunting activities. Isn't that a much better solution?

[nyantler]

My Grandfather eventually came to the point where he had to give up hunting because of failing health, strength and endurance. My father also found a time when hunting was no longer something that he had the stamina for. Both had hunted in an honorable and legal fashion all their lives, a fact of which they were both proud. Neither ever once entertained the thought of breaking the law to accomodate their infirmities. I am not all that far from that point in my life, and I also intend to finish out my years in a legal and honorable fashion. Hunting has always been a strong family tradition and a large part of our lives. Another strong family tradition has been a respect for game laws. For me it would kill me to have my name dragged through the newspapers because of finishing off my years of hunting with illegal acts. It certainly would taint all years of hunting that I have done and cast a shadow on any accomplishments that I have achieved over my lifetime. That's not a way that I want to go out.

I am not really the kind that would blow-in my neighbor, but there is no way I would shake his hand and encourage him to continue hunting in an illegal fashion either. I can understand some people thinking they are doing this guy a favor by encouraging him, but I have to wonder if he would like to finish out his days with an arrest and public humiliation. How great a favor would that be to set him up for because sure as hell, the violations he was commiting are certainly not all that hard for a CO to detect, apprehend and prosecute.

Given the opportunity of Monday morning quarter-backing, I would have encouraged him to think about what he is doing, and as others have suggested, I could do him a real favor by offering to assist him in pursuing legal hunting activities. Isn't that a much better solution?

Makes me wish I said it more like that... pretty much says it all... good post

[arrow nocker]

tell him to just get one of these.LOL.

http://www.texashuntfish.com/app/forum/28917/HyLift-Hunting-Truck-for-sale;jsessionid=E3384247F0A252CC6AC9C6CB37C05B5F

[wooly]

Given the opportunity of Monday morning quarter-backing, I would have encouraged him to think about what he is doing, and as others have suggested, I could do him a real favor by offering to assist him in pursuing legal hunting activities. Isn't that a much better solution?

Not to sound like an argumentative prick Doc, but when you take a look around this forum alone, it's hard to imagine anyone is hunting in a fashion that isn't pleasureable to them. Just the mention of changing a fellow so set in his ways may be just enough to cause some bad blood especially if he's just too proud to accept such an offer.

It's been said here before to just "shut up and hunt" but far too often the guys saying that feel they have the loudest voices and most influence on damn near every post to come across the board.

All this nonsence, tattle tail, pre-k bull crap is so petty it's hard for me to comprehend the reasons why some guys still hunt at all as miserable as it makes them. I guess if someone feels like they're being robbed or deprived of something from their hunts due to someone elses actions afield it's time to make a change to their own style before the go making changes to everyone else...or they could just practice what they preach .."shut up and hunt".

After all, if Joe Blow is doing something illegal or un-ethical, it just makes everyone else comes up smelling like roses. Too many poeople worrying about what the other guy is doing and loosing site of why they're out there in the first place.

[KEVA]

I really don't know how shooting deer from a vehicle on a roadway constitutes as hunting. I would never be able to do that with a clean conscious. I know it may be rough to see an old hunter who can't get around the woods anymore, but how often do we hear stories even on this forum of the younger or healthier outdoors man helping an older man out to a stand or sitting location to deer hunt.

I can't say what I would have done, but I certainly would not have shaken his hand and wished him good luck. You really want to do him a favor, take him hunting. Like the guys already mentioned, he might not be able to hunt his old way. He can still drive up to a blind or something.

I guess my real point is, if you want to turn a blind eye it is your decision. He is violating the law and if he was caught I would not shed a tear, neither would I care if you got caught helping him. I don't know where you get off saying that everyone should be accepting of his illegal behavior. I understand he is not healthy enough to walk the woods, but I do not see what there is to be tolerant of? Help him out by taking him hunting, not by encouraging his illegal behavior and walking away. You did not help him out, just walked away leaving him in his same old sad predicament.

Who knows maybe I would have looked away, doesn't make it right. It is sad, but truth is he should lay down his rifle or get some help.

[Doc]

Not to sound like an argumentative prick Doc, but when you take a look around this forum alone, it's hard to imagine anyone is hunting in a fashion that isn't pleasureable to them. Just the mention of changing a fellow so set in his ways may be just enough to cause some bad blood especially if he's just too proud to accept such an offer.

It's been said here before to just "shut up and hunt" but far too often the guys saying that feel they have the loudest voices and most influence on damn near every post to come across the board.

All this nonsence, tattle tail, pre-k bull crap is so petty it's hard for me to comprehend the reasons why some guys still hunt at all as miserable as it makes them. I guess if someone feels like they're being robbed or deprived of something from their hunts due to someone elses actions afield it's time to make a change to their own style before the go making changes to everyone else...or they could just practice what they preach .."shut up and hunt".

After all, if Joe Blow is doing something illegal or un-ethical, it just makes everyone else comes up smelling like roses. Too many poeople worrying about what the other guy is doing and loosing site of why they're out there in the first place.

Yes it's true that it is a lot easier to turn away and ignore game law violations. I guess for those that do not believe in laws and such, the decisions may very well be to simply ignore such things as a standard way of doing business. There are many poachers who count on this kind of behavior. Personally I have never been one of these "shut up and hunt" people.

[fasteddie]

Is the guy in the pic with the "hands free" phone the one being discussed ?

[growalot]

Luv ya Eddie...hahahaha

[Dave]

Not to sound like an argumentative prick Doc, but when you take a look around this forum alone, it's hard to imagine anyone is hunting in a fashion that isn't pleasureable to them. Just the mention of changing a fellow so set in his ways may be just enough to cause some bad blood especially if he's just too proud to accept such an offer.

It's been said here before to just "shut up and hunt" but far too often the guys saying that feel they have the loudest voices and most influence on damn near every post to come across the board.

All this nonsence, tattle tail, pre-k bull crap is so petty it's hard for me to comprehend the reasons why some guys still hunt at all as miserable as it makes them. I guess if someone feels like they're being robbed or deprived of something from their hunts due to someone elses actions afield it's time to make a change to their own style before the go making changes to everyone else...or they could just practice what they preach .."shut up and hunt".

After all, if Joe Blow is doing something illegal or un-ethical, it just makes everyone else comes up smelling like roses. Too many poeople worrying about what the other guy is doing and loosing site of why they're out there in the first place.

Well put.

[HUNT6246]

Perhaps your friend could look into a Non-Ambulatory Hunter permit from the DEC and see if he qualifies. It doesn't let him shoot from the highway, but it gets you off the couch and gives you a chance to get outdoors. The permit holder can shoot from a vehicle when the vehicle's engine is off. This gives a person with a vehicle on a farm lane or using an ATV a chance to still get out and enjoy the outdoors. It may not be the way he or anyone else prefers to hunt, but it may be better than nothing at all.

[Dave]

Yes it's true that it is a lot easier to turn away and ignore game law violations. I guess for those that do not believe in laws and such, the decisions may very well be to simply ignore such things as a standard way of doing business. There are many poachers who count on this kind of behavior. Personally I have never been one of these "shut up and hunt" people.

Doc, what about the hunters who stick their necks out to report violations and the DEC never shows up. Maybe the feeling is if the DEC doesn't care then why should they. Too many times the law says "if you see something say something" but the law enforcement isn't there. Just like Bernie Madoff, I know it's a little off topic but if the authorities can over look 50 billion dollar fraud they would have no problem overlooking a 70 year arthritic road hunter.

[Doc]

Doc, what about the hunters who stick their necks out to report violations and the DEC never shows up. Maybe the feeling is if the DEC doesn't care then why should they. Too many times the law says "if you see something say something" but the law enforcement isn't there. Just like Bernie Madoff, I know it's a little off topic but if the authorities can over look 50 billion dollar fraud they would have no problem overlooking a 70 year arthritic road hunter.

Really, I can't be responsible for the DEC's half of the violations reporting system. If they have had their resources cut to the point where they can't even respond to all violation complaints, I think that might just be a little bit beyond my control. It also might indicate the need for a little bit of civilian assistance. And while I'm sure that somewhere in the state that has actually happened, I still don't believe that that is a reason for indicting the whole system. And it certainly doesn't mean that I have to, or should, ignore violations when I see them, shake the hand of the violator, and then encourage his behavior by offering suggestions where he can do it more successfully. My God people I can't believe that we have come to the point where we welcome law-breaking based on a hard-luck story. Especially in this case where there are viable alternatives to lawlessness as suggested in several replies. I have seen people in wheelchairs with limbs missing or even blindness that go to extreme lengths to hunt legally. If this guy is actually in such bad shape that he can't make it the required legal distance off the road what exactly was his plan if he got something ..... just let it rot where it fell? Is that something that you feel should be encouraged? Sorry, but I don't.

[G-Man]

Why didn't you offer him a ride oout to a stand via 4 wheele or tractor. and put him in a good spot. ..i hope he doesnt shoot in to the woods when your walking out because a deer is between you and him... waiting for a tragic end to happen in my opinion...

[phade]

Perhaps your friend could look into a Non-Ambulatory Hunter permit from the DEC and see if he qualifies. It doesn't let him shoot from the highway, but it gets you off the couch and gives you a chance to get outdoors. The permit holder can shoot from a vehicle when the vehicle's engine is off. This gives a person with a vehicle on a farm lane or using an ATV a chance to still get out and enjoy the outdoors. It may not be the way he or anyone else prefers to hunt, but it may be better than nothing at all.

I know a guy who has one. He's got permission from the area farmers to do just that. About as honest of a guy as you can get.

I once told him where to park for opening day based on where a particular buck was crossing the road. I had been hunting it all bow season and he shot it within the first 10 minutes of legal light. Another neighbor helped him gut and get the buck back to his house. That old man was about as happy as you could ever see. I gave him my game cam pics of the buck and I haven't paid for sweet corn since (he has a roadside stand).

I usually put a few cams out at routine spots and every so often I'll see him in the photo..making sure the cam is still there and nobody stole it.

It'll probably be the last buck he ever shoots. But he still gets out there...parks on the farm lane and waits each season.

I'm kind of glad he shot that buck...much more so than the slobs that leave bootprints in the snow or gut piles on ground they have no business being on.

Edited December 12, 2011 by phade

[nyantler]

Doc, what about the hunters who stick their necks out to report violations and the DEC never shows up. Maybe the feeling is if the DEC doesn't care then why should they. Too many times the law says "if you see something say something" but the law enforcement isn't there. Just like Bernie Madoff, I know it's a little off topic but if the authorities can over look 50 billion dollar fraud they would have no problem overlooking a 70 year arthritic road hunter.

Bernie Madoff is in jail for over 100 years so I don't see how his crime was overlooked... and any infraction I have ever reported was looked into by the proper authorities... what they do about it is up to them.. our job is only to report what needs reporting the rest is up to the DEC... I remember you saying that breaking the law isn't something you would do.. but you always seem to be defending peoples right to break it... seems a bit odd... I'm all for giving the old timer an opportunity to do the right thing... and would not seek him out trying to catch him doing something wrong.. but I damn sure wouldn't give him my blessing when he's admitting to breaking the law right in front of me... maybe if he told me he was going to steal your 4 wheeler so that he could have easier access to your neighbors posted property I should give him my blessing.. why not just hand him my pistol.. its easier to hide than a rifle in the truck... sometimes people really need to take a look at what they're saying.. maybe they'll realize how little sense it makes...

Edited December 12, 2011 by nyantler

[Dave]

Bernie Madoff is in jail for over 100 years so I don't see how his crime was overlooked... and any infraction I have ever reported was looked into by the proper authorities... what they do about it is up to them.. our job is only to report what needs reporting the rest is up to the DEC... I remember you saying that breaking the law isn't something you would do.. but you always seem to be defending peoples right to break it... seems a bit odd... I'm all for giving the old timer an opportunity to do the right thing... and would not seek him out trying to catch him doing something wrong.. but I damn sure wouldn't give him my blessing when he's admitting to breaking the law right in front of me... maybe if he told me he was going to steal your 4 wheeler so that he could have easier access to your neighbors posted property I should give him my blessing.. why not just hand him my pistol.. its easier to hide than a rifle in the truck... sometimes people really need to take a look at what they're saying.. maybe they'll realize how little sense it makes...

Joe, maybe you don't remember but Madoff was reported to the Securities and Exchange commission at least 3 times and nothing was done. So If they did something then maybe they could have limited the losses for the investors. I am not talking about when you reported anything or the out come you had,mine was not good. I never said what the old man did was ethical and I didn't condone it or breaking the law. Please quote me where I did .Joe you should practice what you preach your response makes no sense. My house up state was robbed last year they could have burned it down I am not there 24/7 so If you report things you may pay a price. Get the point!!!!!!! Why do you read more into the post than is written, you just like stirring the pot. You must be one of those 4 or 5 guys they have been talking about.

[jusputtn]

You must be physically unable to move about except with the use of a mechanized aid such as a wheel chair for a permit to shoot from a motor vehicle. Pg 16 of the syllabus.