Civil war or lost cause

[Versatile_Hunter]

An essential read, regardless of your politics: 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/21/trump-civil-war-reconstruction-biden-lost-cause-461161
 

[Grouse]

Noting in Politico is ever "essential" because it's completely biased.  This article is a perfect example.  A 2nd civil war may be looming and it's all the fault of Trump and those on the right.  The left has done nothing wrong and is not provoking it.  Typical leftist refusal to accept responsibility for anything and incapable of seeing their own flaws.  They believe they have some divine mandate to tell everyone how to live their lives.  They abuse power to bludgeon any opposition. They are not listening to anything outside of their own echo chamber. That''s why a civil war may actually be in our future.

[Grouse]

I will let Mr Maloney address America in this thread.

Misplaced Blame

By M.P. Maloney

Many Americans, perhaps a majority, have lost faith in our political leadership. This has been prompted by a growing list of misdeeds by elected officials, appointees, heads of federal institutions, etc. that go completely or disproportionately unaccounted for. Combine that with a growing divide between the rights, privileges, and “essentialness” of our politicians and the rest of us Troglodytes and you can understand that the tension in our country was going to come with or without President Trump. Congress is equal in blame to President Trump for what happened on January 6.

As is increasingly popular, I see many media pundits now quoting Abraham Lincoln: “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” But did any of them read further? Lincoln’s point was that the country must become all one thing or all the other — meaning all states allowing slaveholding or all states prohibiting it.

Likewise, our current house cannot stand without becoming all one thing or the other thing — so what are those choices? What has the “left” broadcast to us that it wants vs. the “right”? Even those right/left terms are “misinformation,” as this really is a conflict between moving toward oligarchy or preserving our Republic.

The “Oligarchists” — What they’ve broadcast to us that they want for our country and what they’ve given us:

1) A planned breakdown in the fundamental checks and balances of our government. Why? One can only assume they want and we can predict that this will create one-party rule in our country, inevitably leading to oligarchy.

2) Censorship — or at least the acceptance of censorship in our social discourse. Censorship, doxxing, and canceling are not constructs of the right or of Republicans (not meaning the party but those believing in rule by law). If Democrats and those that vote for them think tolerating censorship by Big Tech is simply the end justifying the means, they might want to rein in their Silicon Valley dogs because they’re about to break their chains. Goodby First Amendment rights, inevitably leading to oligarchy.

3) Planned and stated intention to confiscate weapons. You cannot prevent a crime by taking away the rights of law-abiding citizens. Goodby Second Amendment rights, inevitably leading to oligarchy.

4) A narrative of labeling and systemic racism. I know this firsthand as my children have been indoctrinated with this narrative in public schools for the past seven years. Perhaps we should all dust off Art Schlesinger’s The Disuniting of America — and learn from it! What is it Democrats expect to accomplish with this narrative? Unity?

I ask my daughter (who’s indoctrinated), “Do you believe you’ll accomplish social justice and harmony by blaming half our population for something they don’t identify as being guilty of nor responsible for solely based upon the color of their skin? Do you expect that doing so will decrease racism and bigotry or increase it?” Of course, maintaining high levels of racial and labeling tension in our society will only further advance the descent into oligarchy.

5) Continued and accelerated redistribution of wealth. Here, lacking in basic math skills, the left will quickly run out of money, which will lead to oligarchy.

6) A false narrative of anthropomorphic climate change (I’ve researched this in detail in a professional capacity). If you “follow the science,” there is NOTHING there. Maintaining this false narrative will have much the same impact as item No. 4. If you desire a healthier environment, plant trees, reduce deforestation.

We can go on and on.

The “Republicans” are clumsily trying to work within the law (mostly) to preserve rule by law. Starting with elections and their integrity. Frankly, it’s not working so well. Thus far, all we’ve seen is an awakening of ramped-up rhetoric from the right. This implies motivation and awareness but is ultimately destructive and will burn out. Tactics must change if we are to preserve our Republic.

Republicans, believing in rule by law, must fight this battle WITHIN the law. The left disregards the law in the name of “public safety” or “social justice.” Because it doesn’t feel beholden by the law, it holds the high ground (not in a moral sense but in a tactical sense). We who want to preserve our Republic are fighting uphill and will be until this battle is won, period. We cannot violate the law expecting to preserve it.

So as a country we must, by Lincoln’s premonition, become all one or all the other. Oligarchy or Republic. THIS is the fight today, not squabbling about how saintly or despicable Donald Trump is. We are hyper-focused on Donald Trump at our own peril — it misses the mark. This is a major reason why efforts from Republicans are so ineffective. They lack unity of purpose and message. Half are focused on Donald Trump and half are trying desperately to fend off oligarchy.

If we have any hope of preserving rule by law, it must start with trust in the legitimacy of our elections. What the American people need now is TRANSPARENCY! Many in the media, even conservative media, now imply that anyone who believes reports of fraud in this election has accepted lies for fact. I strongly disagree. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that something was very strange about this election. So why not PROVE its validity to the American people with an impartial audit and examination? PROVE to us that this election was legitimate.

As parents, we all know that if a child isn’t transparent, it most likely implies guilt. The dismissing of any need for transparency by simply saying “there’s nothing to see here” isn’t adequate and only gives those already suspicious the impression of guilt.

With trust in our government so low, give the American people something they CAN believe in. Just having the same talking heads that have lied to us about so many other things tell us now to believe that the election was wholly legitimate isn’t enough. We deserve to know. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. Maybe fraud changed the outcome, maybe it didn’t. We need to know in order to restore some faith in this most sacred activity.

One last comment regarding this relatively new term “elites” when it comes to describing billionaires or politicians. That is a oligarchical term that is divisive, insulting, and degrading. Perhaps we need to alter the meaning of “elite” to include “wholly self-absorbed, lacking in accountability, disdainful of truth.” It’s concerning that we have so loosely adopted that term in our media discourse. It portends how far we may have already slipped toward oligarchy.

I am a former Naval Officer, F-14 pilot, and graduate of the U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School. I take my oath very seriously and am saddened by where I see our country going today. I believe we are far closer to losing our Constitutional Republic and way of life than most others believe. It CAN happen here in America. President Reagan warned us about this.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Grouse

[Grouse]

Real Threats to Democracy Still Come From the Left

by David Limbaugh

 

A dark cloud looms over the United States today — a storm cloud of tyranny. All the rest is noise — a diversion.

If self-congratulatory pats on the back could cause skin damage, Trump haters would have leprosy. Having been on a witch hunt to burn him at the impeachment stake since he took office, they believe they are vindicated forevermore.

But apart from their brutal mistreatment of President Donald Trump from the beginning through their coordinated and malicious hoaxes that incidentally rejected lawful election results (in 2016), and apart from the question of whether they have some legitimate complaints against him, this is still not mainly about him. In a few days, he’ll be gone. This is about whether America will descend into tyranny.

Just as the left exploited COVID-19 to damage the economy and President Trump’s political fortunes (as the Democratic New York governor’s and Chicago mayor’s recent call to reopen their economies demonstrate), and just as it milked the virus to exercise unprecedented control over Americans, it is now exploiting the Capitol riot to shame conservatives into succumbing to its efforts to further consolidate its power and erode our liberties.

I would love nothing more than to turn down the volume, take a breather from politics and pretend that partisan strife can be overcome by virtue-signaling platitudes, but that would be a delusional, selfish cop-out. Unless we no longer believe in American exceptionalism, the principles of limited government and the blessings of liberty, we are honor bound to continue the fight.

Whatever caused the breach of the Capitol, whatever percentage of the malefactors were Trump supporters and no matter how much their complaints coincide with those of the 74 million Trump supporters, their misdeeds do not taint the entire lot of us or what we stand for. They do not render moot our concerns over election integrity.

The overwhelming majority of Trump supporters oppose and condemn violent riots, including the riot at the Capitol, and they strongly sounded the alarm about them during the left’s march of mayhem and anarchy throughout America’s cities last summer. For the most part, Democrats who are now decrying riots remained silent. Many of those who voted for Trump’s impeachment have literally called for political violence.

Additionally, millions still believe (and observed) that there were massive election irregularities and that COVID was cynically used to relax voting procedures, which led to most of this insanity in the first place. All these efforts to demonize Trump and intimidate his supporters will not make them believe otherwise, and it will not calm the turbulent waters of political unrest in the country.

Did you read the articles of impeachment? You might find Trump’s speech to his supporters objectionable, but to say that he willfully encouraged violence, when his actual language called for peace, and to use that as a specification for impeachment is chilling, especially when we have evidence that the riots were planned far in advance of his speech (per CNN, no less).

Just as troubling, did you see how this Democratic-controlled Congress, with the help of 10 Republicans, snuck in the “fact” that Trump “reiterated false claims that ‘we won this election, and we won it be a landslide’”?

You may think Trump’s claims are outrageously false, but do you believe the Congress of the United States has any business declaring the expression of such an opinion an impeachable offense? Trump is entitled to his opinion until his dying day, as are the millions of Americans who share it. There is no question that Trump’s legal efforts to challenge the election failed — that’s a fact. But the leftist narrative that Trump’s allegations of election fraud “are false and not supported by the evidence” have been inserted in every liberal-media news report since Trump first started challenging the election. In other words, they dismissed these claims as factually false way before they’d even been formally filed. Now Democrats have outrageously memorialized their narrative in their articles of impeachment.

Even if the election-night shenanigans didn’t change the result of the election — and I’m not sure we’ll ever know for certain – way too many suspicious things occurred that night, and way too many state laws were changed in the middle of the stream to relax voting procedures. Many warned this could potentially lead to misconduct and rampant distrust in the election results. If election-integrity reform measures aren’t undertaken, I don’t see how it’s possible to restore confidence in our system.

Feel free to call us hypocrites in an effort to shame us into silence about the Democrats’ double standards on violence, rioting and threats to our democratic system, but the issue isn’t hypocrisy. That, too, is a distraction. The issue is whether the left, in reality, is threatening our liberties, about which there can be no reasonable doubt.

Whatever you do, don’t take your eyes off the big ball of leftist tyranny. This nation is now under siege by the digital oligarchy, which is censoring political speech with every bit as much power as an authoritarian government. It is about to be under siege by a Democratic-controlled government, one of whose prominent members, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, is threatening to create an investigative commission to “rein in” the media following the D.C. riots.

Go ahead and bark about President Trump’s intangible so-called threats to our democracy, but while you’re falling for that diversion, understand that many Democrats are on the verge of proposing concrete measures to undermine our constitutional system in ways that will ensure their permanent majority, from opening our borders to turning territories into states to legislatively neutering the Electoral College to enacting federal laws that legalize obscenely lax voting procedures and more.

While you’re busy hating on Trump and his supporters, ask yourselves whether conservatives ever call for the silencing of their political opponents. The answer is never, or almost never.

In the meantime, leftists are purging conservative speech and conspiring to destroy conservative digital competitors. Leftist students at Harvard University seek to ban Trump administration officials from speaking on their campus and are now calling for revoking the degrees of Trump supporters and aides. Where are the long-lost civil libertarians in the Democratic Party?

It is a well-rehearsed fantasy that Trump supporters threaten democracy. It is an observable fact that the left does.

Be peaceful, but stay vigilant, because freedom is “never more than one generation away from extinction.” Indeed, we are well into that menacing generation today.

[BowmanMike]

On 1/23/2021 at 3:32 AM, Grouse said:

I will let Mr Maloney address America in this thread.

Misplaced Blame

By M.P. Maloney

Many Americans, perhaps a majority, have lost faith in our political leadership. This has been prompted by a growing list of misdeeds by elected officials, appointees, heads of federal institutions, etc. that go completely or disproportionately unaccounted for. Combine that with a growing divide between the rights, privileges, and “essentialness” of our politicians and the rest of us Troglodytes and you can understand that the tension in our country was going to come with or without President Trump. Congress is equal in blame to President Trump for what happened on January 6.

As is increasingly popular, I see many media pundits now quoting Abraham Lincoln: “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” But did any of them read further? Lincoln’s point was that the country must become all one thing or all the other — meaning all states allowing slaveholding or all states prohibiting it.

Likewise, our current house cannot stand without becoming all one thing or the other thing — so what are those choices? What has the “left” broadcast to us that it wants vs. the “right”? Even those right/left terms are “misinformation,” as this really is a conflict between moving toward oligarchy or preserving our Republic.

The “Oligarchists” — What they’ve broadcast to us that they want for our country and what they’ve given us:

1) A planned breakdown in the fundamental checks and balances of our government. Why? One can only assume they want and we can predict that this will create one-party rule in our country, inevitably leading to oligarchy.

2) Censorship — or at least the acceptance of censorship in our social discourse. Censorship, doxxing, and canceling are not constructs of the right or of Republicans (not meaning the party but those believing in rule by law). If Democrats and those that vote for them think tolerating censorship by Big Tech is simply the end justifying the means, they might want to rein in their Silicon Valley dogs because they’re about to break their chains. Goodby First Amendment rights, inevitably leading to oligarchy.

3) Planned and stated intention to confiscate weapons. You cannot prevent a crime by taking away the rights of law-abiding citizens. Goodby Second Amendment rights, inevitably leading to oligarchy.

4) A narrative of labeling and systemic racism. I know this firsthand as my children have been indoctrinated with this narrative in public schools for the past seven years. Perhaps we should all dust off Art Schlesinger’s The Disuniting of America — and learn from it! What is it Democrats expect to accomplish with this narrative? Unity?

I ask my daughter (who’s indoctrinated), “Do you believe you’ll accomplish social justice and harmony by blaming half our population for something they don’t identify as being guilty of nor responsible for solely based upon the color of their skin? Do you expect that doing so will decrease racism and bigotry or increase it?” Of course, maintaining high levels of racial and labeling tension in our society will only further advance the descent into oligarchy.

5) Continued and accelerated redistribution of wealth. Here, lacking in basic math skills, the left will quickly run out of money, which will lead to oligarchy.

6) A false narrative of anthropomorphic climate change (I’ve researched this in detail in a professional capacity). If you “follow the science,” there is NOTHING there. Maintaining this false narrative will have much the same impact as item No. 4. If you desire a healthier environment, plant trees, reduce deforestation.

We can go on and on.

The “Republicans” are clumsily trying to work within the law (mostly) to preserve rule by law. Starting with elections and their integrity. Frankly, it’s not working so well. Thus far, all we’ve seen is an awakening of ramped-up rhetoric from the right. This implies motivation and awareness but is ultimately destructive and will burn out. Tactics must change if we are to preserve our Republic.

Republicans, believing in rule by law, must fight this battle WITHIN the law. The left disregards the law in the name of “public safety” or “social justice.” Because it doesn’t feel beholden by the law, it holds the high ground (not in a moral sense but in a tactical sense). We who want to preserve our Republic are fighting uphill and will be until this battle is won, period. We cannot violate the law expecting to preserve it.

So as a country we must, by Lincoln’s premonition, become all one or all the other. Oligarchy or Republic. THIS is the fight today, not squabbling about how saintly or despicable Donald Trump is. We are hyper-focused on Donald Trump at our own peril — it misses the mark. This is a major reason why efforts from Republicans are so ineffective. They lack unity of purpose and message. Half are focused on Donald Trump and half are trying desperately to fend off oligarchy.

If we have any hope of preserving rule by law, it must start with trust in the legitimacy of our elections. What the American people need now is TRANSPARENCY! Many in the media, even conservative media, now imply that anyone who believes reports of fraud in this election has accepted lies for fact. I strongly disagree. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that something was very strange about this election. So why not PROVE its validity to the American people with an impartial audit and examination? PROVE to us that this election was legitimate.

As parents, we all know that if a child isn’t transparent, it most likely implies guilt. The dismissing of any need for transparency by simply saying “there’s nothing to see here” isn’t adequate and only gives those already suspicious the impression of guilt.

With trust in our government so low, give the American people something they CAN believe in. Just having the same talking heads that have lied to us about so many other things tell us now to believe that the election was wholly legitimate isn’t enough. We deserve to know. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. Maybe fraud changed the outcome, maybe it didn’t. We need to know in order to restore some faith in this most sacred activity.

One last comment regarding this relatively new term “elites” when it comes to describing billionaires or politicians. That is a oligarchical term that is divisive, insulting, and degrading. Perhaps we need to alter the meaning of “elite” to include “wholly self-absorbed, lacking in accountability, disdainful of truth.” It’s concerning that we have so loosely adopted that term in our media discourse. It portends how far we may have already slipped toward oligarchy.

I am a former Naval Officer, F-14 pilot, and graduate of the U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School. I take my oath very seriously and am saddened by where I see our country going today. I believe we are far closer to losing our Constitutional Republic and way of life than most others believe. It CAN happen here in America. President Reagan warned us about this.

Baloney

[Northcountryman]

On 1/23/2021 at 1:56 AM, Versatile_Hunter said:

An essential read, regardless of your politics: 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/21/trump-civil-war-reconstruction-biden-lost-cause-461161
 

Definitely biased and mostly wrong . I Emphatically disagree with the major premise - that Trumps MAGA movement is analogous to the Antebellum Confederacy or, Nazi Germany ( a typical liberal tactic, Not at all surprised that he threw that in there!) - And Could find only one thing I agree with him on:  that the QAnon thing is wacky as hell!! 

[9jNYstarkOH]

I find it funny as Biden and the leftists call 74 million Trump voters nazis but want unity with them. Who would want unity with a nazi that is one of the many examples that shows the left has no sense.

Edited January 26, 2021 by 9jNYstarkOH

[Versatile_Hunter]

1 hour ago, 9jNYstarkOH said:

I find it funny as Biden and the leftists call 74 million Trump voters nazis but want unity with them. Who would want unity with a nazi that is one of the many examples that shows the left has no sense.

Your premise is incorrect. 

[Versatile_Hunter]

2 hours ago, Northcountryman said:

Definitely biased and mostly wrong . I Emphatically disagree with the major premise - that Trumps MAGA movement is analogous to the Antebellum Confederacy or, Nazi Germany ( a typical liberal tactic, Not at all surprised that he threw that in there!) - And Could find only one thing I agree with him on:  that the QAnon thing is wacky as hell!! 

I think you missed the point. The analogy extends to the false-narrative emerging in the south after the fall of the confederacy. Trump has fallen - what will the ensuing (and enduring) narrative be? This selection from the article I linked to summarizes thesis:

“The threat he sees isn’t that there will be another literal war: It’s the threat of two rival stories about America taking root, as they did after the Civil War. One of them, a heroic “Lost Cause” narrative of a noble Confederacy whose soldiers sacrificed themselves for honor and tradition, flourished for decades, justifying the fight for slavery and continuing to distort American politics to this day. 

As Donald Trump’s more extremist followers cling to his bogus claims of a stolen election, wrapping Trump’s complaints into a nationalist counternarrative driven by racial anxiety and anger at the government, they risk creating a legacy that will divide the country long after the man himself leaves the stage. “In search of a story—in search of a history, in search of a leader, in search of anything they can attach to—lost causes tend to become these great mythologies whose great conspiracy theories tend to explain everything,” says Blight...

“At the heart of a lost cause, if it has staying power, is its capacity to turn itself into a victory story,” says Blight. “Can Trumpism ultimately convert itself into some kind of victory story? We don’t know that yet.””

[Lucky118]

Unless your a complete moron leach American, all you have to do is look at the Democrat ruled states and see that their policies are garbage. New york is broke, California is on the verge of collapse, The state of Washington  burns every night. Texas, Georgia, Virginia, North Carolina,  are next as alot of the leaches have fled the dying  corpses of states they have already infected with their disease looking for fresh destruction. A good civil war might be good for clearing some of the vermin on both sides.

[Northcountryman]

7 hours ago, Versatile_Hunter said:

Your premise is incorrect. 

Which part is incorrect, or do you mean all of it?

 

[9jNYstarkOH]

8 hours ago, Versatile_Hunter said:

Your premise is incorrect. 

Please explain what is incorrect.

[DoubleDose]

13 hours ago, Versatile_Hunter said:

I think you missed the point. The analogy extends to the false-narrative emerging in the south after the fall of the confederacy. Trump has fallen - what will the ensuing (and enduring) narrative be? This selection from the article I linked to summarizes thesis:

“The threat he sees isn’t that there will be another literal war: It’s the threat of two rival stories about America taking root, as they did after the Civil War. One of them, a heroic “Lost Cause” narrative of a noble Confederacy whose soldiers sacrificed themselves for honor and tradition, flourished for decades, justifying the fight for slavery and continuing to distort American politics to this day. 

As Donald Trump’s more extremist followers cling to his bogus claims of a stolen election, wrapping Trump’s complaints into a nationalist counternarrative driven by racial anxiety and anger at the government, they risk creating a legacy that will divide the country long after the man himself leaves the stage. “In search of a story—in search of a history, in search of a leader, in search of anything they can attach to—lost causes tend to become these great mythologies whose great conspiracy theories tend to explain everything,” says Blight...

“At the heart of a lost cause, if it has staying power, is its capacity to turn itself into a victory story,” says Blight. “Can Trumpism ultimately convert itself into some kind of victory story? We don’t know that yet.””

This is a superficial analysis and misleading.  First, HALF this country voted for DJT, I repeat HALF.  Secondly, I do not believe DJT, Trumpism, or MAGA, represents the whole of the Republican party or all the people that voted for him.  People supported and voted for policies they believed in or agreed with.  This happened on both sides.  However, it is the MSM and the Democrat politicians that are labeling HALF the country racist, nazi, fascist, xenophobic and other "deplorable" labels.  The MSM is blatantly biased in its reporting, so they no longer have credibility or trust AND results in Americans (think HALF) getting their news from other sources.  The MSM and Democrats continue to marginalize and disenfranchise HALF this country.  History has shown this is the common theme in civil wars.

[phantom]

On 1/23/2021 at 1:56 AM, Versatile_Hunter said:

An essential read, regardless of your politics: 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/21/trump-civil-war-reconstruction-biden-lost-cause-461161
 

You know lefty  media  always talks about  diversity but how about diversity of political views  at these news outlets? and tech firms ? Maybe  congress should pass a law about that kind  of diversity   but you know it never  was about  being  equal with these people it  is about   getting  control  power , anyway they can  with any bs  thing they can come up with .

[Northcountryman]

15 hours ago, Versatile_Hunter said:

I think you missed the point. The analogy extends to the false-narrative emerging in the south after the fall of the confederacy. Trump has fallen - what will the ensuing (and enduring) narrative be? This selection from the article I linked to summarizes thesis:

“The threat he sees isn’t that there will be another literal war: It’s the threat of two rival stories about America taking root, as they did after the Civil War. One of them, a heroic “Lost Cause” narrative of a noble Confederacy whose soldiers sacrificed themselves for honor and tradition, flourished for decades, justifying the fight for slavery and continuing to distort American politics to this day. 

As Donald Trump’s more extremist followers cling to his bogus claims of a stolen election, wrapping Trump’s complaints into a nationalist counternarrative driven by racial anxiety and anger at the government, they risk creating a legacy that will divide the country long after the man himself leaves the stage. “In search of a story—in search of a history, in search of a leader, in search of anything they can attach to—lost causes tend to become these great mythologies whose great conspiracy theories tend to explain everything,” says Blight...

“At the heart of a lost cause, if it has staying power, is its capacity to turn itself into a victory story,” says Blight. “Can Trumpism ultimately convert itself into some kind of victory story? We don’t know that yet.””

No, I understand the point; what I'm saying is, I disagree with the validity and accuracy of Blights analogy in the article  (See Double Doses reply for reference in regerds to much I would say here ).

As many on the left regularly do, Blight over simplifies the MAGA movement-and the entire Republican party in general- to a poltical group fraught with racists by juxtaposing it to  (as he refers to it) the The Lost Cause " of the Confederacy. Of course, this is highly inaccurate and also , is insulting to the 75 million voters  who supported Trump and the MAGA movement. Moreover, he further erodes his credibility by citing QAnon as further evidence of this civil war/lost cause comparison and the associated misinformation campaign that was undertaken and maintained as a means for denial of reality. QAnon is a FRINGE element of the far-right and has little-if anything- to do with MAGA and Trump.  IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM DOES THE BELIEF/VALUE  SYSTEM OF QANON MATCH THAT OF THE AVERAGE TRUMP VOTER. This is another myth perpetrated by the left. And finally, Blight states AS FACT that the entirety of Trump voters were fed a big lie vis a vis the Election fraud claims (i.e, the contention that it was stolen) , similar to the lies fed to citizens in southern states post civil war (what lies were these southerners fed that this can even be compared to?) .  I believe it is a little too early to make that assumption , and since millions of people do -and with very valid and legitimate reason- believe there was siginifcant fraud, this statement is also easily and readily  dismissed.   This is my take at least. Please  LMK where I'm going wrong !!

[Salmon_Run]

I do not find it at all odd the some respond to these forums with very differing opinions; then when questioned or we ask for clarification or true irrefutable evidence (not media bias) all I hear is crickets... 

I whole heartedly love a good debate, but I'm done with sniffing the troll bait....