Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Doc]

Just a thought, but I wonder how many of you are reaping the benefits of food-plotting vs. AR? I know some of you that are talking about how AR is working well are also very active in creating food plots and perhaps other QDM habitat improvements. I'm also curious as to whether AR opinions vary depending on whether a hunter hunts primarily state or any kind of public land vs. those parcels that are private, posted and locked up with hunter pressures more regulated (restricted).

Don't know if there is any correlation ..... just asking the question.

[burmjohn]

We only did our plot last year, so I know its not that in my area.  And there are no other plots other then open grass thats been there forever.

[wztirem]

Just a thought, but I wonder how many of you are reaping the benefits of food-plotting vs. AR? I know some of you that are talking about how AR is working well are also very active in creating food plots and perhaps other QDM habitat improvements. I'm also curious as to whether AR opinions vary depending on whether a hunter hunts primarily state or any kind of public land vs. those parcels that are private, posted and locked up with hunter pressures more regulated (restricted).

Don't know if there is any correlation ..... just asking the question.

Great question, QDM and AR do have a relationship.

[Meat Hunter]

I believe QDMA has one of its Ideas not harvesting young bucks but ARs are in no way QDMA which is involves with lots of record keeping on deer and  hunters and lots of food plot and habitat work.

Yearling Buck Conservation is about one thing, allowing yearling bucks to get a year or two older before harvest by moving the majority of harvest from 1.5 year old bucks to 2.5 year old bucks. It is not a habitat, doe harvest, food plot or trophy program.  Total deer numbers are still controlled by the number of DMP (antlerless) tags issued by the DEC. Deer numbers are controlled only through doe harvests.

[Doc]

No, I just threw those questions out there just to make sure that the right thing is given credit for our observations. The reason that crossed my mind is that I too have noticed an increase in recent years of older and bigger deer, and we don't have AR. So it makes me wonder if there aren't far more reasons than simply AR that could be responsible for changes in any particular localized herd......Just a point of curiosity.

[Meat Hunter]

In a localized area it could be fewer hunters.  One guy who hunted on a piece I hunt got emphysema and now is in Florida during hunting season. That changed the hunting since he is not walking around and not killing deer.  Another place I hunt was logged, high graded and now it to open so the deer don’t avoid that area during hunting season.

[Meat Hunter]

Here is a Chart of the age of the Deer in the Statewide harvest vs the AR area in 2010

[SteveB]

Still would like to see the links - not an edited copy and paste - to the actual numbers posted for prw and now AR. Any %'s without the numbers they based on mean little to nothing.

[Meat Hunter]

Feel free to do the math yourself and check it.  All the info is on the dec website.

The dec shows this stuff at our local meetings.

I am afraid to ask but what is the short story on you and nyb

[SteveB]

With all due respect, I am not searching the DEC website for things others have posted.

The above charts are another example of meaningless %'s without the real numbers to show where they where combined.

No nead to be afraid to ask anything but I'd rather wait to repost or pm you my nyb story when I know who you are other then a forum handle.

[G-Man]

I just don't understand the state mandated ar's... face it if 67% of whatever numbers want it and do it vollentarially there is/would be no need to have mandatory ar's. Most areas of ny seem to be producing larger racked buck due to vollentiery harvest selection and some form of qdm land/habitat management. Glad i don't hunt in those areas where i have to count points..saw a 3 1/2 year old 4 pt that was a great buck but would not meet requirements and so passes on its large 4 pt genes... High grading the herd is what antler requirements will lead to in high pressure areas... hope you enjoy shooting your big bucks when all you see are large mature scrub bucks doing all the breeding. A 1 1/2 old 8 pt should be left go as its already an eight while a spike or 4 or 6 pt may never get more points especially if have less points lets it survive.. Genetic adaption at its finest!

[SteveB]

I just don't understand the state mandated ar's... face it if 67% of whatever numbers want it and do it vollentarially there is/would be no need to have mandatory ar's. 

Ding ding ding!!!! We have a winner!

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

Just a thought, but I wonder how many of you are reaping the benefits of food-plotting vs. AR? I know some of you that are talking about how AR is working well are also very active in creating food plots and perhaps other QDM habitat improvements. I'm also curious as to whether AR opinions vary depending on whether a hunter hunts primarily state or any kind of public land vs. those parcels that are private, posted and locked up with hunter pressures more regulated (restricted).

Don't know if there is any correlation ..... just asking the question.

Doc brings up an interesting question.  How many of the "pro-AR" guys on this site are able to buy up or hunt on locked up lands via their clubs, put in bait plots, and hence farm their own trophy bucks?  Maybe, in addition to listing where we live and what zones we hunt in, we should all be indicating the conditions under which we hunt.  I'm willing to bet that we'll find that it's the guys with all the private land, and the money to invest in bait plots that are telling the rest of us what we can/can't shoot. 

I'll start:

I live in 3C, hunt in 3C, 3J, 3M.  I hunt on public land as I don't have the money to buy land, build cabins, or plant non-indigenous bait plots that modify the deer's natural movement patterns.  I have to actually hunt the deer I kill by scouting the ground ahead of the season, reading the natural sign as it exists for that year, and then adjust my hunting strategy to match those natural conditions.  My hunting strategy involves actually walking into the woods instead of roaring around on an ATV. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I live in 8h. I hunt 8m. 8h. 5h. 6s and 7r. At home I am hunting over and around ag fields. In 8m it is plots and stalking. In 5h it is big woods hunting. At my camp in 7r we have 2 small plots of clover left. About an acre. They are around the cabin and we don't hunt over them....haven't yet anyway. At camp we butt a large chunk of state land so I sepnd about half my time over there. I grew up hunting only state land but now most of what I hunt is private. I bow.shotgun. rifle and ML hunt.

[nyantler]

No, I just threw those questions out there just to make sure that the right thing is given credit for our observations. The reason that crossed my mind is that I too have noticed an increase in recent years of older and bigger deer, and we don't have AR. So it makes me wonder if there aren't far more reasons than simply AR that could be responsible for changes in any particular localized herd......Just a point of curiosity.

Don't forget that even though there is no AR mandate in your area.. there are many hunters now that practice it on there own... which could be the reason for seeing bigger bucks... fewer hunters and hunters not getting in the woods as much may be contributing as well

[Doc]

Don't forget that even though there is no AR mandate in your area.. there are many hunters now that practice it on there own... which could be the reason for seeing bigger bucks... fewer hunters and hunters not getting in the woods as much may be contributing as well

If that sort of voluntary compliance is having a noticeable effect in non-AR areas, then there is no reason to waste the ink on any new regs.

[nyantler]

Don't forget that even though there is no AR mandate in your area.. there are many hunters now that practice it on there own... which could be the reason for seeing bigger bucks... fewer hunters and hunters not getting in the woods as much may be contributing as well

If that sort of voluntary compliance is having a noticeable effect in non-AR areas, then there is no reason to waste the ink on any new regs.

Seeing a few more big bucks doesn't necessarily mean that the age structure of the buck herd is stabalized.. it just means that some of the young bucks are squeeking through to get a bit older... but you are right... if hunters showed restraint on their own... there would be no need to waste the ink.

[33Canuck]

Should be AC not AR, its about tagging mature bucks not necessarily big antlered deer that should be the focus although with mature deer generally comes bigger antlers but I will take a 4 1/2 yr old 6pt with mass and character over a 2 yr old 10pt with great potential anyday, one is clearly harder to harvest

[G-Man]

Thats why ar's in high pressure areas will high grade the herd quickly!! Most hunters cant tell the difference in age of game! All that will be left are big 4 and 6's that are 3 -4- or 5 years old a little 8 will be shot at first chance... I'd rather see a sm. 8 left alone and have someone shoot the spike next to it!! The eight has a good jump on the spike and will most likely be an 8 or bigger the next year..the spike who knows?? yes it left alone with proper nutrition it might ..might become a giant. I for one would rather bet on the 8 being better the next year than wait 3-4 years for the spike to maybe be better..

[nyantler]

Should be AC not AR, its about tagging mature bucks not necessarily big antlered deer that should be the focus although with mature deer generally comes bigger antlers but I will take a 4 1/2 yr old 6pt with mass and character over a 2 yr old 10pt with great potential anyday, one is clearly harder to harvest

Absolutely!! Agree 100%

[Doc]

Even though it has been said already, I will repeat it. The "point count" style of AR is the one that most proponents take seriously simply because it is understood that the least amount of mistakes will be made using that system. Perhaps we may not like the results of that system, but it must be recognized that there are a large percentage of hunters out there that do not make much of a science of their hunting and wouldn't recognize the difference between a mature deer and an immature deer. I'm talking about guys that hunt primarily opening day only or maybe just a few days out of the season. I think we might be surprised to find out just what a large percentage of all hunters that is.

So first of all, it is important to understand just how much actual experience (or lack thereof) many of our hunters actually have. Note that I am not slamming these guys. I'm a believer in letting people be as casual as they want to be about their recreations. But I am admitting that not all hunters are as deep into the sport as we on this forum may be.

So to be looking for some statewide action that considers the actual maturity of the deer for balancing out the age structure of the herd is a nice thing to talk about, but don't be getting to serious about ever seeing that put into law. If that's something that private landowners want to dictate for their own properties or their hunters want to hold out as their own personal goals .... fine. However, if we have state-mandated AR implemented in NY, I will guarantee that it will be a point count style whether we like it or not and whether it really is the right thing to do or not.

[Meat Hunter]

We would have to start with a point count system because that is what we have been doing for 100 years.  Also not that many hunters have had a chance to see many adult bucks to get used to a spread, beam tip in front of the eye ect.

That being said after a few years of AR a more tailored system may be a possibility.  When we started ARs in Sullivan and Ulster counties the DEC had not seen enough adult bucks to collect data on what a correct spread would be to protect yearling bucks. With the exception of region 7, I do not think spread age correlation data has been gathered or studied.

[nyantler]

One of the reasons many hunters do not see mature bucks is because they aren't actively hunting them... sure they would love to see one and harvest one, but most guys settle for the first buck they see, which shows up around 7 am opening day... I use to be one of those guys many years ago... I had a hard time seeing anything other than yearlings... in 1994 when I first started passing on younger deer... I saw more bucks than I ever saw before and killed my first huge buck... I believe it had everything to do with learning how to pass on younger bucks and seeking out areas that would hold bigger bucks... since then I have killed 11 bucks that score over 100 and have passed on well over 100 younger bucks that I could have killed... I don't think it really says much about how good of a hunter I am, but more about how patient I have become... and I'll grant you... it may not be for everyone, but it sure has made my hunting far more challenging and extremely enjoyable...

[Doc]

The one version of AR that I am very much opposed to is the "antler spead" version. That particular type of AR is just custom-made for mistakes.

Particularly for bow hunting, the shot that I am looking for is a totally unaware broadside shot. I don't want to be looking at a side profile of the buck trying to guess whether the antler spread meets the legal criteria. I also do not want to be forced to get the deer's attention to make him turn his head toward me so I can see the spread. I also don't want to be finding bucks rotting in the woods because someone else made a bad assumption based on a side profile view. Beam spread may be a much better indicator of maturity than point-counting, but it is also a much tougher feature to verify.

[Dave]

One of the reasons many hunters do not see mature bucks is because they aren't actively hunting them... sure they would love to see one and harvest one, but most guys settle for the first buck they see, which shows up around 7 am opening day... I use to be one of those guys many years ago... I had a hard time seeing anything other than yearlings... in 1994 when I first started passing on younger deer... I saw more bucks than I ever saw before and killed my first huge buck... I believe it had everything to do with learning how to pass on younger bucks and seeking out areas that would hold bigger bucks... since then I have killed 11 bucks that score over 100 and have passed on well over 100 younger bucks that I could have killed... I don't think it really says much about how good of a hunter I am, but more about how patient I have become... and I'll grant you... it may not be for everyone, but it sure has made my hunting far more challenging and extremely enjoyable...

I buy that reasoning if you shoot  a spike at 7:00 am opening day your hunt is done. But if you pass him up you may see a bigger buck that you would have missed if you shot that spike. More time in the woods more deer to see so don't jump on the first buck you see.

Dave