Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Dave]

Dave.. I'm surprised that the DEC has missed all the decimated herds in NY... I mean if they knew that you only saw 2 bucks and no cigar with bow and a lot more does than normal.. and your camp only got one buck... wouldn't you think that they would take that info and put out an "all points bulletin" that herds in your area were decimated and call an emergency meeting to do something about it right away?? ???

Tonto Joe where have you been hiding? Missed you talking about yourself and what a great hunter you are and how everyone else are just weekend hunters who need to hunt more to be like you. Maybe you can arrange a meeting with the DEC for me to do something about the herd. I don't think I said the herd was decimated but I do remember saying there weren't many bucks in the area. But don't quote me.

Dave

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Maybe the herd isn't decimated, and some of you

- just suck at hunting?

- don't have good hunting priveledges?

- couldn't put the time in?

- didn't get lucky?

I could fall into any of those categories, but at least you guys counted every deer in ny and asked them where the live, right? So what's worse for trophy management, a buck with crappy antler genetics breeding and SPREADING those genes, or the wishful thinking that all bucks grow bigger racks as they age?

[nyantler]

"Hunting is the only proven animal control method and will continue as long as there is habitat and animals enough to control.."

You know the DEC has studied what other measures could be taken if we hunters don't do our job of killing. Things like, re-introducing wolves and deer contraception, hunting is by far the best method but it should be noticed that they already have the studies done for the just in case scenario. My recomendation, kill deer, its our jobs.

All those proposed methods are just like you say... case scenario's... which may someday be used in conjunction with hunting.. but will never replace hunting... because it has been proven that hunting is by far the best method for animal conservation... look it up.. it's fact... not my opinion

[nyantler]

"As for your desire to hunt.. that doesn't say anything about how others feel... first of all.. hunting probably shouldn't be anyones top priority but that doesn't mean they don't love it and that they don't do a lot of it... others like you may be more content twiddling your thumbs on the sofa... and that could be a lot of the reason you have the outlook you do about hunting regs. Life is about choices... if you choose not to hunt that is your right.. for whatever reason... my feeling is that losing the weekend warriors or disinterested hunters... will have zero impact on whether or not I am for or against a new hunting regulation... if I think it's good for deer management then it's good to me... if others don't... they can feel free to sit on the sofa and twiddle... maybe that will make more room on the state land for those that do still enjoy hunting."

Where in that statement does it say I have anything against weekend warriors... someone mentioned that this group of hunters might quit hunting if certain things were apopted by the DEC... all I said was that losing them has no impact on my feeling (for or against) a particular new hunting regulation and if they so choose to give up hunting and sit on the sofa and twiddle their thumbs.. oh well... it will make more room for those of you that still want to hunt that complain that state land is over crowded. It makes no reference to making more room for me to hunt... I have plenty of land and game with or without other weekend warriors. Someone quiting hunting because they don't like whats going on is their choice and should not be the criteria for adopting or not adopting new deer management regulations... the only criteria should be whether the regulation is beneficial to the animal... conservation is for wildlife and habitat... not the hunter

[Doewhacker]

"Hunting is the only proven animal control method and will continue as long as there is habitat and animals enough to control.."

You know the DEC has studied what other measures could be taken if we hunters don't do our job of killing. Things like, re-introducing wolves and deer contraception, hunting is by far the best method but it should be noticed that they already have the studies done for the just in case scenario. My recomendation, kill deer, its our jobs.

All those proposed methods are just like you say... case scenario's... which may someday be used in conjunction with hunting.. but will never replace hunting... because it has been proven that hunting is by far the best method for animal conservation... look it up.. it's fact... not my opinion

I know its a fact thats why I said it!

[nyantler]

"Hunting is the only proven animal control method and will continue as long as there is habitat and animals enough to control.."

You know the DEC has studied what other measures could be taken if we hunters don't do our job of killing. Things like, re-introducing wolves and deer contraception, hunting is by far the best method but it should be noticed that they already have the studies done for the just in case scenario. My recomendation, kill deer, its our jobs.

All those proposed methods are just like you say... case scenario's... which may someday be used in conjunction with hunting.. but will never replace hunting... because it has been proven that hunting is by far the best method for animal conservation... look it up.. it's fact... not my opinion

I know its a fact thats why I said it!

Sorry Doe... I apologize for not reading it correctly.

[Doewhacker]

"Sorry Doe... I apologize for not reading it correctly."

I blame the heat playing tricks on you, whew its hot.

[WNYBuckHunter]

We gonna see 125 pages on this one???  ;D

[Dave]

We gonna see 125 pages on this one???  ;D

Wow Buck you are good an apology from Joe. He must have heat exhaustion, MR. I don't care what people think.

Dave

[nyantler]

We gonna see 125 pages on this one???  ;D

Wow Buck you are good an apology from Joe. He must have heat exhaustion, MR. I don't care what people think.

Dave

yeah I don't really care what people think... I do however care what people know... and I'd still apologize even to you if I misread your post and replied incorrectly.

[Dave]

We gonna see 125 pages on this one???  ;D

Wow Buck you are good an apology from Joe. He must have heat exhaustion, MR. I don't care what people think.

Dave

yeah I don't really care what people think... I do however care what people know... and I'd still apologize even to you if I misread your post and replied incorrectly.

Underneath that tough exterior is a gentlemen.

Dave

[TheHunter]

As I and others have told you before, then keep AR's in YOUR unit and stay out of the others.  Very simple, but obviously not simple enough for you to understand I guess.  We know darned well what AR's are all about.  You guys simply can't get yourselves to be honest about it.  You keep repeating that it's better for the herd health and age structure when the truth behind it is easy enough for a blind man to see.  As we have pointed out before you never would have had such biological theories if hunters wanting more trophy deer didn't pay biologists to devise it.  When we point this out, you tell us we are ignorant. So be it.  I could give a hoot what you think.

Funny over the last few years you were tring to speak for our area's. What comes around goes around. And these are not theories, deer management and head health is a proven fact. Your just mad because you can't shoot a immature buck next year.

[SteveB]

Mr hunter - please post something/anything showing their are unhealthy deer here in 7J.

And/or post something that a 6pt AR would have any significant effect in the age structure in 7J.

Look forward to seeing what you have.

Thanks.

[Meat Hunter]

    Steve is right- a 4 point per side is needed in his area to protect yearling bucks- its good habitat. A spread would be better.  I have the date from the DEC on what the spread should be in region 7 to protect yearling bucks. 

[SteveB]

Does the report mention anything about unhealthy deer? Because i have never seen one.

Trouble with 4pt/side is that it does lead to hygrading - maybe that is considered a "health" improvement by some.

[nyantler]

When speaking of herd health... deer management plans are refering more to maintaining optimum herd health not necessarily repairing an unhealthy herd... the health of a deer herd contains many factors... nutrition being only one part... optimum breeding, body wieght, age structure, stress management are some other parts. AR's are primarily put into place for age structure and to create a hierarchy in the buck herd so that the better or dominant bucks are doing most of the breeding and allowing young bucks a chance to grow to their potential. AR's in conjunction with doe population controls help create better buck to doe ratios which help to get does bred earlier to reduce the number of late born fawns.

AR's alone do not necessarily make a herd healthier... AR's have rightly gotten a bad rap because most hunters see them as a means to just produce trophy bucks... which inherantly they do... but the truth is that having more trophy bucks will always be the bi-product of having a more balanced buck age structure...

If hunting was not the only proven population control for whitetails and mother nature could do it alone... all yearling bucks would be spared each year and the age structure would be such that there would be representation in all age classes... hunters shooting young bucks are the only factor that keeps that natural age structure from occuring and they are also the only ones that fix it. Unfortunately, most hunters don't see the importance of a balance age structure for bucks... if they did there would probably be no need for us to be talking about AR's... hunters would be dong it voluntarily.

[SteveB]

So their is nothing about AR that will make deer healthier.

Their has not been a naturaly occurring herd since shortly after the pilgrams landed.

The only way that herd will ever happen again is if 99% of the human population dies.

If the deer are healthy, the herd is also. Trying to recreate a balance that only existed with minimal human effect is a romantic, unneeded ideal.

[G-Man]

depends what your criteria is for a heathy herd.. pa had a heathly herd but it was killing off its forest regeneration..... The biggest problem with ar's is they work well in areas with low hunting pressure,and a good deer population. new york is a high pressure area in almost almost all the state except the dacks.. to many hunters and not enough deer to keep em all happy as it is. Small acreage land holdings is the common place (under 100 acres) the average h unter does not have enough property to hunt that will even contain a home range of a group of deer it. Without mandatory check stations and reporting,and the high number of hunters that butcher their own deer i see a lot of law breaking going on and do not believe they will accomplish much more than highgrading the herd in a few short years...

[nyantler]

So their is nothing about AR that will make deer healthier.

Their has not been a naturaly occurring herd since shortly after the pilgrams landed.

The only way that herd will ever happen again is if 99% of the human population dies.

If the deer are healthy, the herd is also. Trying to recreate a balance that only existed with minimal human effect is a romantic, unneeded ideal.

LOL.. well you are kinda right... yet there has been naturally occuring herds up until just before the 1900's... until overhunting with no hunting regs or harvest limits almost wiped out the entire NY whitetail population.. and we're not looking necessarily for what mother nature did before man started erasing most of the habitat... just a better age structure than there is at the present which does in fact make some of the herd healthier... especially fawns which will be born earlier and have a much greater chance of survival in low food areas... the age structure right now is the same as having a small percentage of adult male humans 30 and up...with most of the male population being teenage boys ... and we certainly don't want that! 

[nyantler]

depends what your criteria is for a heathy herd.. pa had a heathly herd but it was killing off its forest regeneration..... The biggest problem with ar's is they work well in areas with low hunting pressure,and a good deer population. new york is a high pressure area in almost almost all the state except the dacks.. to many hunters and not enough deer to keep em all happy as it is. Small acreage land holdings is the common place (under 100 acres) the average h unter does not have enough property to hunt that will even contain a home range of a group of deer it. Without mandatory check stations and reporting,and the high number of hunters that butcher their own deer i see a lot of law breaking going on and do not believe they will accomplish much more than highgrading the herd in a few short years...

there is no example anywhere in the US that deer management and AR's haven't worked where they have been applied properly, the question really is.. Can the NYDEC apply any of it properly? I think not! As you all know I am all for deer management with antler restrictions in some circumstances... I'm just not confident that New York State could pull off a proper program statewide that would be beneficial to all or most WMU's

[bubba]

well, I think  umm no never mind.  ;D

[erussell]

depends what your criteria is for a heathy herd.. pa had a heathly herd but it was killing off its forest regeneration..... The biggest problem with ar's is they work well in areas with low hunting pressure,and a good deer population. new york is a high pressure area in almost almost all the state except the dacks.. to many hunters and not enough deer to keep em all happy as it is. Small acreage land holdings is the common place (under 100 acres) the average h unter does not have enough property to hunt that will even contain a home range of a group of deer it. Without mandatory check stations and reporting,and the high number of hunters that butcher their own deer i see a lot of law breaking going on and do not believe they will accomplish much more than highgrading the herd in a few short years...

there is no example anywhere in the US that deer management and AR's haven't worked where they have been applied properly, the question really is.. Can the NYDEC apply any of it properly? I think not! As you all know I am all for deer management with antler restrictions in some circumstances... I'm just not confident that New York State could pull off a proper program statewide that would be beneficial to all or most WMU's

Can they enforce it would be a better question. All they have to say is it is so and it is. So implementing antler restrictions isn't a problem. The NYSDEC couldn't enforce themselves out of a box without the help of other sportsman. For the entire Broome county area there are three officers. And in 25 yrs of hunting I have only been checked 3 times and they were all in 2009 when hunting stateland. Unless a neighbor turns in there neighbor for shooting something under the limit, people will probably continue to kill spikes and four points anyhow.

[ejp419]

if anyone around me shoota an illegal buck they will be turned in. I already told them. I don't care who you are. I watch over 600 acres, 345 of it I am the only one allowed on. If I see any illegal activity I call. Lt. ECO lives right down the road from the property 

[nyantler]

depends what your criteria is for a heathy herd.. pa had a heathly herd but it was killing off its forest regeneration..... The biggest problem with ar's is they work well in areas with low hunting pressure,and a good deer population. new york is a high pressure area in almost almost all the state except the dacks.. to many hunters and not enough deer to keep em all happy as it is. Small acreage land holdings is the common place (under 100 acres) the average h unter does not have enough property to hunt that will even contain a home range of a group of deer it. Without mandatory check stations and reporting,and the high number of hunters that butcher their own deer i see a lot of law breaking going on and do not believe they will accomplish much more than highgrading the herd in a few short years...

there is no example anywhere in the US that deer management and AR's haven't worked where they have been applied properly, the question really is.. Can the NYDEC apply any of it properly? I think not! As you all know I am all for deer management with antler restrictions in some circumstances... I'm just not confident that New York State could pull off a proper program statewide that would be beneficial to all or most WMU's

Can they enforce it would be a better question. All they have to say is it is so and it is. So implementing antler restrictions isn't a problem. The NYSDEC couldn't enforce themselves out of a box without the help of other sportsman. For the entire Broome county area there are three officers. And in 25 yrs of hunting I have only been checked 3 times and they were all in 2009 when hunting stateland. Unless a neighbor turns in there neighbor for shooting something under the limit, people will probably continue to kill spikes and four points anyhow.

The difference will be that the hunter won't be able to brag about his little buck to all the people at the bar..

[Meat Hunter]

Most people comply with the game laws and with ARs people start to see much nicer bucks and try to harvest the big ones.  Once there is a choice between little bucks and big bucks- hunters all go big.