Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[gjs4]

I may be a guy who kills some of those mature bucks and I am probably a guy who knows about many of them (including the ones that fly under the internet radar)...but when you have most of the hunters and deer kill in the state - 3 dozen 3.5 or older ones on line does not mean squat when it represents less than 5% of the take.

Why should AR be in WNY- because (despite the states BS stats) almost every male killed here is less than 2.5 yo and we are saturated with deer and does (our b:d is way out of whack)...... my beef is the state has no idea on how many deer are here or killed and (again) it appear to be all about license sales. A serious deer hunter could understand the opportunity here for a helthier herd (due to mean age and managed population including that of b:d ration) and the trophy potential that would coincide

[Larry]

Letchworth has had an AR in place for a few years. I have talked to the guys who work there the AR was put in place not to get older and bigger bucks; it was put in place to reduce the deer herd by changing the focus from any buck to doe’s. They are seeing some bigger bucks in the park.

If you have to be more selective about the buck you have to shoot and you have a DMP in your pocket most guys will shoot the first flat top that walks by; also the best food is outside the park and the deer get hit pretty hard when they leave the park.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Letchworth has had an AR in place for a few years. I have talked to the guys who work there the AR was put in place not to get older and bigger bucks; it was put in place to reduce the deer herd by changing the focus from any buck to doe’s. They are seeing some bigger bucks in the park.

If you have to be more selective about the buck you have to shoot and you have a DMP in your pocket most guys will shoot the first flat top that walks by; also the best food is outside the park and the deer get hit pretty hard when they leave the park.

And all this sounds great...but what about the fellow hunters in areas were there are very limited or no doe permits. I keep hearing statewide this and statewide that. My high issue with any of this is. NY have too many varying conditions and habitat to manage on a "state wide basis". Heck sighing the WMU's the conditions and populations vary.herd management is not something we should be painting with a broad brush

[gjs4]

I know a few guys who have hunted the park o rlive near...heck that guy last year or the year before kept posting pics of the ones at the MM entrance on here...there are some dandies in there.

Always laughing about the big deer I see in NT, Cheektowaga, Amherst and Buffalo. All it is  IS AGE..... thats why there are not more of them....too many guys shooting the first horned animal they see....and many of them do not shoot does which doubles the debacle

CHC-totally agree bud. Yes- I agree! I used to be huge on ARS, and even as my leeter in NYON states- I rather have accurate stats...then we can have some decisions made on what and where. The state has no clue on what lives and dies in most areas. Diversity is huge in this state. 15 yrs ago we could shoot 3/4 does as a group of 5 guys on the family farm..now it is 35 deer (with 5 hunters) with 40000 DMPS being doled out for 8G....thinking someone missed the picture there. It is not that I am anti DEC but I will say it again....they only care about license sales.....

[nyantler]

    Maybe  it is  because you can kill deer like this without AR’s. All you have to do is put in  some time and hunt a little smarter. Take a look at Creekwood Archery .com and  see some of the deer taken in there deer contest.

You're still not listening Larry.. it's not about killing bigger deer. It's about balancing the age structure in bucks... the real problem is hunters like you can't get the big deer thing out of their head and look at it from a management standpoint.

[ejp419]

    Maybe  it is  because you can kill deer like this without AR’s. All you have to do is put in  some time and hunt a little smarter. Take a look at Creekwood Archery .com and  see some of the deer taken in there deer contest.

You're still not listening Larry.. it's not about killing bigger deer. It's about balancing the age structure in bucks... the real problem is hunters like you can't get the big deer thing out of their head and look at it from a management standpoint.

Well said nyantler.

[nyantler]

Letchworth has had an AR in place for a few years. I have talked to the guys who work there the AR was put in place not to get older and bigger bucks; it was put in place to reduce the deer herd by changing the focus from any buck to doe’s. They are seeing some bigger bucks in the park.

If you have to be more selective about the buck you have to shoot and you have a DMP in your pocket most guys will shoot the first flat top that walks by; also the best food is outside the park and the deer get hit pretty hard when they leave the park.

That is just ridiculus...using AR's to change the focus from bucks to does?? You actually believe that???? All they need to do to get more guys killing does is to make it so they have to fill a doe tag in the park before they can kill a buck... that alone would reduce the number of bucks taken and increase the number of does taken without having to implement AR's... see thats what I mean about putting crap out that isn't true... that is something you made up or heard from someone else that had no idea what they were talking about and desided that you would use that as an arguement against AR's... sometimes we need to admit that we just don't like something because we don't quite understand it.

[Larry]

Hunting is allowed in Letchworth for one reason and one reason only, that is to control the DEER POPULATION. That’s it end of story! If you think, if they had a cheaper way to control the deer population, in that park or any other park in this state. Do really think they would allow hunting. That is just ridicules...

[bubba]

ridicules what?

[First-light]

    Maybe  it is  because you can kill deer like this without AR’s. All you have to do is put in  some time and hunt a little smarter. Take a look at Creekwood Archery .com and  see some of the deer taken in there deer contest.

You're still not listening Larry.. it's not about killing bigger deer. It's about balancing the age structure in bucks... the real problem is hunters like you can't get the big deer thing out of their head and look at it from a management standpoint.

Joe,

Please explain the balanced age structure thing. If it has been talked about elsewhere just point me in that direction.

Thanks

[5.9cummins]

The NY age structure is way out of whack. We have a disproportion number of young bucks with very few older deer. If you have ARs in place to protect the young bucks or at least some of them then you should get more yearlings surviving to maturity (or at least another level of it).

The theory being that if you have a more balanced herd I.E. a 1:1 or 1:2 buck to doe ratio vs. what we have now 1:3,4,5,6,7,8 etc. etc. You wont have as many "teenagers" doing the breeding  and the majority of it will be done by older deer because the young bucks will have a harder time finding a doe that is not with a buck.

The rut should also be better and when i say better i mean shorter and more intense. In theory you should also see more daytime movement. There isnt going to be a doe in estrous behind every tree or if there is there is a better chance she will already have a buck tending her so they will have to go looking more. Because the bucks will have a harder time finding does this should translate to more daytime movement. With more bucks to do the breeding the rut should condense because few does will "miss" getting bred the first time around. As it is now a doe can get completely missed the first or in some cases the second time. As it is now fawn drop is staggered in the spring over a couple of months. If you breed all the does at the same time you should get a more uniform fawn drop which should lead to a better survival rate because they will all be born earlier vs. later. That will give them an edge come fall. It should also cut down on the "second rut" when some of the yearling does come into estrous. Those too should be more condensed and more intense.

Larry has a point antler

Letchworth has a deer problem. So how do you put a bigger target on a does back?

Answer take away the number of racked targets in the woods.

Just because there are more big bucks running around doesn't mean they are as stupid as a button. They have gone through several years of having hunters running around the woodS throwing lead. They know its safe in the gorge where the majority of guys will not go.

PA has seen a increase in doe harvest and i would suspect the same to happen in Letchworth or NY as a whole if AR is implemented. You dont know what the framers of the policy intended. It may not be in the master plan of AR to target doe harvest to control the population in the park but if it works so be it. Yes a earn a buck program would do the same thing but from what i have seen on here earn a buck would not go over real well with the community and in the end i would imagine that Letchworth wants to decrease the deer population and how it gets done is a means to an end, nothing more.

DEC said it before there is no biological reason for AR.

And i have a really strong feeling that if BIGGER RACKS were not in the equation we would not even be having this debate.

I went to school for wildlife biology and i understand (at least the basics) pretty well. As a bow hunter i would love to see a better rut and increased chance at a mature deer.

But not at the expense of my freedom to choose what i harvest. WE DONT NEED AR.

[ejp419]

Dang. You about summed it up.

My theory is this. I have been hunting for almost 30 years. For the last 5 or 6 years I have changed my life (became self-employed) partly because of my desire to hunt as often as possible. Starting from opener of bow to the last day of muzzle I makes it out 99% of the time. Last year I missed maybe 2 days out of the whole season and that was bow. I haven't missed one day of rifle in years. I have posted and patrol of 700 acres. 345 of which I am the only one allowed on. I have reached a point in my hunting life to wish to shoot adult deer. I have set standards for myself. No longer do I wish to shoot 1.5 or 2.5 year olds. I have no desire to make it easier on myself but shooting a desirable deer in my area, and I have it alot better then most hunters, is like hitting the lottery. In the 5-6 yrs of having permission to hunt where I do, I only see maybe one desirable buck a year. Maybe. We have great genetics around the area. All the deer need is age. One of the problems is the southern border. Those hunters shoot everything with a 3 inch horn. A few years ago I watched a beautiful 6 pointer all rifle season. The last day of the season he got shoot. I don't expect anyone to set there standards high because I have, but wouldn't it be a great thing to be able to watch mature bucks run around the woods? Fighting? Rutting? I have never seen 2 mature bucks fighting only because theirs not 2 mature bucks in the area lol.. I put my time in. More then most. I hunt more then anyone I know. I love the woods and the animals. I shoot does every year. I have no problem with that. Why not want a better deer herd?

Ok. I'm done rambling. Sorry.  :-X

[nyantler]

Hunting is allowed in Letchworth for one reason and one reason only, that is to control the DEER POPULATION. That’s it end of story! If you think, if they had a cheaper way to control the deer population, in that park or any other park in this state. Do really think they would allow hunting. That is just ridicules...

Here again Larry you aren't paying attention... you said AR's are being used for population control... I explained exactly how to achieve the same results without AR's... If in fact that is their reasoning for using AR's is to control population.. then I gaurantee it is going to fail... antler restrictions serve one purpose only and that is to decrease the number of younger bucks being killed.. it has no affect on population control that can't be attained by just issuing doe first tags or just issuing more tags period... whoever thought of using AR's to decrease deer population in Letchworth has no idea what they are doing... and you using Letchworth's ingnorance for using them to control population as an argument against AR's is still ridiculus.. THAT IS IT.. END OF STORY  

[nyantler]

    Maybe  it is  because you can kill deer like this without AR’s. All you have to do is put in  some time and hunt a little smarter. Take a look at Creekwood Archery .com and  see some of the deer taken in there deer contest.

You're still not listening Larry.. it's not about killing bigger deer. It's about balancing the age structure in bucks... the real problem is hunters like you can't get the big deer thing out of their head and look at it from a management standpoint.

Joe,

Please explain the balanced age structure thing. If it has been talked about elsewhere just point me in that direction.

Thanks

Burt.. 5.9 pretty much summed it up... NY has a very unbalanced buck age structure in most areas due to the amount of young bucks being killed.. which doesn't allow for a good age representation in each age group... To explain it better.. it would be like having a country where 85% of the population were teenagers and only 15% of males over the age of 18.. where possibly there are no males in their 60s or 70's. That would cause major social problems in the human world... it's no different in the whitetail world. Having a balanced age structure among the male population allows young males to grow and mature and reach their potential... as they reach their potential some bucks will become smarter and stronger than others based on gained experience and learned abilities to adapt to situations that younger bucks have not had time to learn or experience... as the herd evolves those bigger stronger bucks become dominant and pass their genetics on to the new offspring which will have a greater chance of developing into similar dominant bucks... just think what the world would be like if teenagers made all the decisions and started doing all the breeding at the age of puberty... It would be one screwed up world...

[Doc]

To explain it better.. it would be like having a country where 85% of the population were teenagers and only 15% of males over the age of 18.. where possibly there are no males in their 60s or 70's. That would cause major social problems in the human world...

Yeah but look at what we would save in Social Security entitlements ...... ;D

Also, judging by the teenage pregnancy problems, perhaps the younger deer would be as super-prolific as our human teenagers ..... eh? You sure wouldn't want to leave the breeding up to those 60 and 70 year olds.....lol.

Ok, I understand what you are trying to say. I just thought it might be a good time to lighten things up a bit 

[nyantler]

To explain it better.. it would be like having a country where 85% of the population were teenagers and only 15% of males over the age of 18.. where possibly there are no males in their 60s or 70's. That would cause major social problems in the human world...

Yeah but look at what we would save in Social Security entitlements ...... ;D

Also, judging by the teenage pregnancy problems, perhaps the younger deer would be as super-prolific as our human teenagers ..... eh? You sure wouldn't want to leave the breeding up to those 60 and 70 year olds.....lol.

Ok, I understand what you are trying to say. I just thought it might be a good time to lighten things up a bit 

I laughed... and you have a point about leaving the breeding to 60 and 70 year olds...lets change that to 30 and 40.. we don't need anyone spraining anything!!

[ELMER J. FUDD]

My how things have changed.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Maybe the herd isn't decimated, and some of you

- just suck at hunting?

- don't have good hunting priveledges?

- couldn't put the time in?

- didn't get lucky?

I could fall into any of those categories, but at least you guys counted every deer in ny and asked them where the live, right? So what's worse for trophy management, a buck with crappy antler genetics breeding and SPREADING those genes, or the wishful thinking that all bucks grow bigger racks as they age?

This is pretty much how I still feel.

[burmjohn]

oh my you brought this topic back from 2010

[ELMER J. FUDD]

It's deja vu all over again.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Did you ever check out the motor club?

[Larry]

WHO THE HELL BROUGHT THIS BACK FROM THE DEAD

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Last night approval of this survey was @ 50%. Now it's 60%. Interesting.

[nyantler]

Last night approval of this survey was @ 50%. Now it's 60%. Interesting.

Actually could be higher... only 25% no.. 15% are on the fence.

[GreeneHunter]

_{With more antler restrictions in place this year and this past winter that wasnt are we setting ourselves up for a few more big bucks down the road and/or a bigger population all around ?}